PAKISTAN SEEKING 4 TO 6 NEW FAST ATTACK CRAFTS TO GUARD GWADAR

[maximuswarrior]

Protecting the port itself can likely be done with PN"s existing Z- and T-type frigates. However, protecting the ships using the port is another matter. Boats are needed for harbor patrol and anti-piracy missions. I don't see how the new FACs fit that bill: too big for harbor patrol and too slow for the anti-piracy role.

If I was shipping stuff in and out of Gwadar, or insuring cargoes that do, I'd probably want a say in what the PN plans to use to defend my stuff. So it might be wiser for the PN to solicit suggestions from these primary users rather than proceed without consulting them.

We wil obtain much of the frigates and other hardware from the very same country that has assisted us in building the port. China will help Pakistan in guarding and securing the port. We won't leave anything to luck. Don't worry about it too much.

 

[Solomon2]

We wil obtain much of the frigates and other hardware from the very same country that has assisted us in building the port. China will help Pakistan in guarding and securing the port. We won't leave anything to luck. Don't worry about it too much.

Do you think such bland put-offs will be enough to assure major shipping companies? The route may be shorter but sea travel is much cheaper than road/rail and insurance can be expensive. Gwadar is going to have to deliver value for the money and while the Chinese value it for strategic reasons they also have a built-in disincentive for Gwadar to succeed in regular commercial operations, as its competition is China's own home ports.

 

[Penguin]

What do you think about FAC-55 concept of Turkey?? And MILIGEM??

I think MILGEM is a capable, yet compact package esp the bigger version with Mk41s.
This too is a sweet design. Big Thales-NL Smart-S mk2 on top, STING-EOR ;-)

Basis should be 300km coastal AShM battery + on sight SAM. I'm not seeing much ASW and MCM capability on the whole: what good is a port without clear approaches?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

FAC-55 delivers high speeds of a true FAC with the firepower of a corvette/light frigate. Its like Azmat on steroids. If it truely can hit 55kn then it will (with the right equipment) be a force on the Indian ocean.

Equipped with Sea Giraffe AMB or preferably trs-3d/16 es you would have excellent situational awareness (180km for Sea Giraffe or 200km for trs) with both surface and air detection and targeting for weapons systems. Exchange the type 76 OTM gun for a Type 730 CIWS and the RAM launcher for fl3000n (given the supply issues likely for RAM) and you have a very potent little ship with reasonably good point defense/self protection capability an aggressive punch with 8 AShM. With 6 of these you could keep all of eez under surveillance from your FAC alone, not to mention the larger vessels in PN.

Question is are these being sought in addition to the 6 type 022 FAC that were proposed to be built in Karachi after completing the Azmat order? If so, that would give PN a nice cadre of light corevettes/ heavy FAC (16 total: 4 Azmat, 6 type 022, 6 FAC-55) to serve along side hopefully 4 MILGEM-G, +/- 4 Chinese frigates (hopefully type 057) and 4 F-22p (which will hopefully be upgraded as the FAC-55 carries better systems at 1/4th the size and 1.5x the speed (albeit less range/endurance)). That os a very reasonable surface fleet for PN and a quantum leap from where it is even today. Add to that 11 aip equipped subs and you have one of the more potent navies in Asia.

The Type 022 and improved F-22P news came from Want China Times via Kanwa, may not have been the most reliable source. If anything, it is the current requirement for 4-6 boats that will likely see the Type-022 (or variant) compete against the FAC-55 and other Chinese and Turkish options.

That said, seeing the size and capabilities of the FAC-55 - and even Azmat-class to be honest - I am at a loss why the PN would even need to seek Ada-class corvettes. Sure, the range and ASW is good, but is it worth spending north of $200m a ship, and then still being left with a gap in AAW? I would be shocked if - and *especially* if FAC-55 or upgraded Azmat-class ships are bought - the PN signs for the Ada-class instead of Istanbul-class frigate (or improved F-22P with VLS and MR-SAM).

And yes, we can probably swap out the RAM for the FL-3000N. In terms of the radar, the PN should probably help Aselsan scale its internally produced SMART-S Mk2 as much as possible. It's a good radar, it'd be worth configuring the new FACs, F-22P, and new frigates with it.

I think MILGEM is a capable, yet compact package esp the bigger version with Mk41s.
This too is a sweet design. Big Thales-NL Smart-S mk2 on top, STING-EOR ;-)

Basis should be 300km coastal AShM battery + on sight SAM. I'm not seeing much ASW and MCM capability on the whole: what good is a port without clear approaches?

@cabatli_53 can correct me, but the final product is supposed to have ASW via lightweight torpedoes.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Are you sure

Yes Madam.

Did read there comments on the other thread and laughed...Thought you should not remain demoralized for a long period
rather return to your favourite topics.

More MRTP-33 or AZMAT, or a combination could well fit the bill.

A good combination as these are already in service with PN. MRTP-42 would not add anything other then being bigger.

Type-22 is more relevant for point defence. Though it can be upgrade with Genesis. The only limitation is the speed as compared to FAC - 55.

Why do we require a heli deck on an FAC when we can use Drone Copters? They can land on a smaller area.

Alternatively, the similar displacement 75 metres PVs ST Marine built for the Royal Oman Navy: AShM but no SAM.

This could be a very good option if the helideck is reduced it could be upgraded with Umkhonto VLS. Or increase the size by 10-20 meters for adding SAM options.

What do you think of Hamina class?

@cabatli_53 can correct me, but the final product is supposed to have ASW via lightweight torpedoes.

Sir,
Torpedoes? seem unrealistic.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Yes Madam.

Did read there comments on the other thread and laughed...Thought you should not remain demoralized for a long period
rather return to your favourite topics.


A good combination as these are already in service with PN. MRTP-42 would not add anything other then being bigger.

Type-22 is more relevant for point defence. Though it can be upgrade with Genesis. The only limitation is the speed as compared to FAC - 55.

Why do we require a heli deck on an FAC when we can use Drone Copters? They can land on a smaller area.


This could be a very good option if the helideck is reduced it could be upgraded with Umkhonto VLS. Or increase the size by 10-20 meters for adding SAM options.

What do you think of Hamina class?


Sir,
Torpedoes? seem unrealistic.

The slightly heavier Swedish Visby-class has torpedo launchers for the Mk.45.

 

[Basel]

The slightly heavier Swedish Visby-class has torpedo launchers for the Mk.45.

Visby will be expensive and Swede's will not sale it to Pakistan.

 

[Tank131]

@Penguin you are one of the people i have learned the most from, especially in naval topics. Anyone who says otherwise is a moron.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa)
If i remember correctly, there is no more Istanbul frigate program, rather the stretched MILGEM-G /ADA-G design. This is a 10m longer MILGEM with 16 AShM and a 16 cell vls. That is a huge upgrade to FAC 55 and F-22p capabilities. That gives you the potential for 16-64 medium range SAMs (depending on missile) and 24 shortrange sams through a ciws like RAM or FL3000N. Add a gatling style ciws and a smart-s mk2 and strong ASW capabilities and you have a truely modern multirole light frigate with reasonably strong air defense (flotilla level, though not fleet level). It is worth the price given the current state of PNs surface fleet. If this can be acquired in reasonable numbers (4-6) and you get ~2-4 type 057 heavy frigates with good radars/command/control capabilities and a long range SAM like HQ-9, 6 FAC 55, and upgrade f-22p with better missiles and radar (smart s mk2) you then have an effective surface fleet (10-14 large surface vessels and 10 light corvette heavy FAC as well a 2 mrtp33 2 jalalat ii fac, 2 jurrat fac)

Hell, as far as f22p goes, if you couldn't fit a vls in place of the fm90, then id replace it with 2 24 cell fl3000n launchers (slightly less range but far more missiles).

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

@Penguin you are one of the people i have learned the most from, especially in naval topics. Anyone who says otherwise is a moron.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa)
If i remember correctly, there is no more Istanbul frigate program, rather the stretched MILGEM-G /ADA-G design. This is a 10m longer MILGEM with 16 AShM and a 16 cell vls. That is a huge upgrade to FAC 55 and F-22p capabilities. That gives you the potential for 16-64 medium range SAMs (depending on missile) and 24 shortrange sams though a ciws like RAM or FL3000N. Add a gatling style ciws and a smart-s mk2 and strong ASW capabilities and you have a truely modern multirole light frigate with reasonably strong air defense (flotilla level, though not fleet level). It is worth the price given the current state of PNs surface fleet. If this can be acquired in reasonable numbers (4-6) and you get ~2-4 type 057 heavy frigates with good radars/command/control capabilities and a long range SAM like HQ-9, 6 FAC 55, and upgrade f-22p with better missiles and radar (smart s mk2) you then have an effective surface fleet (10-14 large surface vessels and 10 light corvette heavy FAC as well a 2 mrtp33 2 jalalat ii fac, 2 jurrat fac)

Yes I was referring to the MILGEM-G. They actually gave the Istanbul-class name to that (as opposed to the clean-sheet TF-100 which they dropped).

 

[Tank131]

Yes I was referring to the MILGEM-G. They actually gave the Istanbul-class name to that (as opposed to the clean-sheet TF-100 which they dropped).

I think if it has the right systems it is very much worth it. PN needs more numbers and more modern vessels very badly. The typ21s should have beem retired 10-15 yrs ago. If you can only have one (MiLGEM-G vs type 057) ,then get 4-6 of either and go full tilt to get the remaining 3 Adelaides from Australia as they will retire in next 3 years and already have mk41 vls installed. I would them get sylver A43 or A50 and get CAMM for all 4 OHP (3 Adelaides and 1 Alamghir). If possible (which im sure financially its not), get 4-6 MILGEM-G, 3 Adelaide and 2 type 057 (4500t should be able to house hq9 in the rear 16 cells and dk10 in the forward 32 cells, in addition tp the 24 cell fl3000n in the rear and the type 730 ciws in the front.

 

[Penguin]

@cabatli_53 can correct me, but the final product is supposed to have ASW via lightweight torpedoes.

For a larger, high-end FAC that would be no surprise.

If 800nmi range would suffice, how about the 45+kn (rough sea) / 60+ knots (calm sea) 274 tonnes full load stealthy Skjold SES, from Norway?

Wanna race?

 

[Neptune]

The Type 022 and improved F-22P news came from Want China Times via Kanwa, may not have been the most reliable source. If anything, it is the current requirement for 4-6 boats that will likely see the Type-022 (or variant) compete against the FAC-55 and other Chinese and Turkish options.

That said, seeing the size and capabilities of the FAC-55 - and even Azmat-class to be honest - I am at a loss why the PN would even need to seek Ada-class corvettes. Sure, the range and ASW is good, but is it worth spending north of $200m a ship, and then still being left with a gap in AAW? I would be shocked if - and *especially* if FAC-55 or upgraded Azmat-class ships are bought - the PN signs for the Ada-class instead of Istanbul-class frigate (or improved F-22P with VLS and MR-SAM).

And yes, we can probably swap out the RAM for the FL-3000N. In terms of the radar, the PN should probably help Aselsan scale its internally produced SMART-S Mk2 as much as possible. It's a good radar, it'd be worth configuring the new FACs, F-22P, and new frigates with it.



@cabatli_53 can correct me, but the final product is supposed to have ASW via lightweight torpedoes.

That can be arranged. Did they release a RfP or tender notice for PN's requirements?

As for ASW, Tuzla-class patrol boats of Turkish Naval Forces are armed with Roketsan ASW Rocket system as well. But there's a new assault boat tender going on here, if Pakistan will go with a Turkish, that better be from one of the competitors at the current tender..

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

The slightly heavier Swedish Visby-class has torpedo launchers for the Mk.45.

Visby Class is a Corvette not FAC.

A more practical approach should be Midjet Submarines in the class of 500-600 ton. Some thing KSEW has worked on.
http://www.karachishipyard.com.pk/midget-submarines/

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Visby Class is a Corvette not FAC.

A more practical approach should be Midjet Submarines in the class of 500-600 ton. Some thing KSEW has worked on.
http://www.karachishipyard.com.pk/midget-submarines/

The displacement of the Visby-class (640-tons) is very close to the FAC-55 (535-tons). The nomenclature doesn't matter much, we need to look at the actual weight and dimensions.

 

[Solomon2]

...A more practical approach should be Midjet Submarines in the class of 500-600 ton. Some thing KSEW has worked on.
http://www.karachishipyard.com.pk/midget-submarines/

We've gotten pretty far away from the subject topic: how to guard gwadar port. Do Pakistanis want Gwadar to be a viable commercial port that contributes to Pakistan's economy or merely a justification for an irrelevant military shopping list? If the former, Pakistan should consult with the major shipping companies, not just the Chinese; if the latter, chat away....