Pakistan, Romania to expand ties in field of defence production

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

PUMA nice chopper , if we indeed go in that direction for Joint Production

Strangely I also find them quite rugged thing and for the duty they perform they have a workable design can be applied across all 3 branches of forces

It would be interesting to do a Price vs Performance comparison between PUMA and MI-19


"SUPER PUMA"

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

PUMA nice chopper , if we indeed go in that direction for Joint Production

Strangely I also find them quite rugged thing and for the duty they perform they have a workable design can be applied across all 3 branches of forces

It's very tough to come up with a standard design for all three service arms as each of them have very distinct requirements. The PAF's utility helicopter needs center on search and rescue, the Navy needs AShW and ASW capable systems, and the Army has a wide mix of needs - e.g. utility, troop transport, attack, search and rescue (and in different environments), etc. The closest platform with a shot at being adopted by all three service arms is the AW139, mainly in the general utility and search and rescue role. Next up would be the S-70, especially since the platform can be re-oriented for naval operations.

 

[Basel]

choppers ,
they a have licence from airbus to produce the 215 [as332] super puma would be a good replacement for the puma's [iar 330] which pakistan already has which are coincidently from Romania.

also they can replace the sea kings and some mil-17's

pakistani iar 330 built in romania

hc215 now being built in romania

honestly the design is old but they are solid and cheap

C-130 design is very old to but still very effective with proper upgrades, can this be said to those helicopters? @gambit @Windjammer

 

[Blue Marlin]

.Airbus Helicopters says it brought the H215 Super Puma's acquisition costs to a very competitive level. It isn't as cheap as buying a Mil Mi-171, but it is quite cheap in absolute terms. Moreover, Airbus is promising cost-savings (in comparison to the Mi-171) after several years of operations.

It's worth noting that the H215 Super Puma and older Puma are in different categories. The Puma the Pakistan Army operates is actually a smaller version, one akin to the S-70 Black Hawk, UH-1 Huey and AW-139. The Super Puma is a medium-lift design capable of carrying as much as the Mi-171. So any Super Puma order from Pakistan would basically come out from not ordering additional Mi-171s, they're redundant.


Indeed. Romania wants to revive its arms industry, so there's an opportunity for both Romania and Pakistan to share funding in developing new designs, especially Ukrainian and South African ones.

the mil-171 is bigger than the super pumas and are known to be more robust. super pumas [sp] are reliable no doubt but they wont be a replacement for the mil-17 but more of a supplement i assume.
the h225 which is an enlarged version of the h215 would be a near enough a like for like replacement for the mil-17.
also ipnt Indonesian aerospace is Already building the h215 under licence anyway, why is Romania so special.

also the reason for the transfer of the entire production line is so make space for something else ec os working on and to reduce the price of the chopper so poorer countries can buy them. that and ec own 49% in iar too.

 

[Sloth 22]

Further they have quite large stores of Reserve T55 tanks [Can be used to upgrade as Al Zarrars]and other Soviet Armours .

122/130 Towed Artillery too.

Plus 1 Kilo.

 

[SSGcommandoPAK]

Romania has around 45 Mig-21 LanceR A/B/C , They could buy our JF-17s to replace these Migs .
They also have 10 Iak-52s Trainers which can be replaced by Super Mushaks ...
Romania's Military budget is also around 2 Billion $

Further they have quite large stores of Reserve T55 tanks [Can be used to upgrade as Al Zarrars]and other Soviet Armours .

122/130 Towed Artillery too.

Plus 1 Kilo.

Yes Romania has around 450 T-55AM and T-55AM2 tanks .

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Super PUMA

Nice platform if comes with production line tremendous addition
Considering that we do need to fill the need for Transport Helicopter (Primary and Secondary) unit for a long time

Looks rather lovely design , once the right combination of Color is applied shows the positive qualities of the helicopter.

Does the intended job

a) Carries people / Soldiers
b) Can transport goods
c) Can rescue
d) Multi Terrain

Can be a Universal Application for
a) Navy
b) Military
c) Coast guard
d) Ambulance

 

[tarrar]

Pakistan should continue to find ways to slowly become self sufficient in defence hardware production & by signing such agreements, Pakistan can achieve wonders in future.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

a) Mi-19 (Arrival in last 10 years or so)
b) Italian AgustaWestland AW139 (New arrivals)
c) now Super puma , considering that we already operate some regular Puma choppers

Cooperation on greater degree will certainly advance all of some of the platforms to next level
Which platform will get a local Pakistan Helicopter factory , remains to be seen

 

[ali_raza]

if we get tot it will be great start for making in house helicopters industry

 

[denel]

I was about to write on this. I do recall my colleagues back in late 80s noting that Romania supplied a lot of components late 80's to support what would then become the Oryx helo; this also fed into rooivalk program.We were and remain very heavy users of Alouette III/Pumas/Super Frelons. It made sense to continue onwards and bring it inhouse. It brought a lot of good talent and newer pool of resources with wide ranging backgrounds.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Oryx

Mi-17 and Super Puma/Oryx are similar and reliable. The question is if you want to follow Atlas's example where we laid the foundations for two seperate local programs.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I was about to write on this. I do recall my colleagues back in late 80s noting that Romania supplied a lot of components late 80's to support what would then become the Oryx helo; this also fed into rooivalk program.We were and remain very heavy users of Alouette III/Pumas/Super Frelons. It made sense to continue onwards and bring it inhouse. It brought a lot of good talent and newer pool of resources with wide ranging backgrounds.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Oryx

Mi-17 and Super Puma/Oryx are similar and reliable. The question is if you want to follow Atlas's example where we laid the foundations for two seperate local programs.

The Rooivalk is a good example of innovating with existing technology. The Rooivalk uses a large number of critical components as the Super Puma, e.g. engine and transmission. In a sense, South Africa got a common attack and transport platform with the Rooivalk and Oryx.

Pakistan needs to standardize as much as possible. Using a single standard platform within each of the service arms will be difficult, but that doesn't mean some sensibility can't be had. For example, try to scale the same turboshaft engine across different platforms.

The Pratt & Whitney PT6 is used by the AW139 and Bell 412. Funnily enough, was among the turboshafts sought for the Z-10. Although the WZ-16 turboshaft has come to fruition, one might see Pakistan getting creative... who knows... (joking). Seriously, if any of the service arms seek an Alouette III replacement, the AW139 should be the way forward.

The AH-1Z uses the GE T700. Pakistan would be wise to scale that further and - while not the exact make - the same engine platform is used on the S-70 and AW-101. So, if the Navy begins looking for a Sea King replacement, well, one of these would be wise. Honestly, this is something to consider in terms of replacing the Pumas as well. Remember, like the H215, LM has put in some work in making the S-70 affordable as well.

 

[Naif al Hilali]

Promises, promises, and more promises...

Airbus or Eurocopter or whatever their name will be six months hence,
Don't know why they have to change the helicopter designation and name as well

Rebranding be well and truly damned,
Reminds one of entities like Cellular One who had to keep changing their name and had to buy the AT&T name...
Portends great troubles at home

Aerospatiale of old did make great helicopters,
The Dauphine with its fenestron (shrouded tail fan) and extreme stability in hover,
still the favorite for Search and Rescue at any price,
Only approached in stability by the Chinook (and Kamov contra-rotating shipborne helicopters I guess),
The Ecureil well and truly busting the JetRangers's hold on the light helicopter market, even in the US,
The Llama before them setting standards for high-altitude operations.

Pakistan Army's Pumas were surely their gold standards for solid durability,
good reason the basic airframe design is still being used as a basis for new aircraft.

However, given Airbus's recent record,
I would not put any credence in them being able to lower costs;
In fact, I would wager they will end up costing more rather than less once procurement is done with
The Poland deal, even with kickbacks
(how much ever were they to justify such an exorbitant price tag?)
doest makes my head spin, still

So, Caveat Emptor

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Promises, promises, and more promises...

Airbus or Eurocopter or whatever their name will be six months hence,
Don't know why they have to change the helicopter designation and name as well

Rebranding be well and truly damned,
Reminds one of entities like Cellular One who had to keep changing their name and had to buy the AT&T name...
Portends great troubles at home

Aerospatiale of old did make great helicopters,
The Dauphine with its fenestron (shrouded tail fan) and extreme stability in hover,
still the favorite for Search and Rescue at any price,
Only approached in stability by the Chinook (and Kamov contra-rotating shipborne helicopters I guess),
The Ecureil well and truly busting the JetRangers's hold on the light helicopter market, even in the US,
The Llama before them setting standards for high-altitude operations.

Pakistan Army's Pumas were surely their gold standards for solid durability,
good reason the basic airframe design is still being used as a basis for new aircraft.

However, given Airbus's recent record,
I would not put any credence in them being able to lower costs;
In fact, I would wager they will end up costing more rather than less once procurement is done with
The Poland deal, even with kickbacks
(how much ever were they to justify such an exorbitant price tag?)
doest makes my head spin, still

So, Caveat Emptor

Honestly, I'd keep an eye on the S-70 Black Hawk. It was certainly an option earlier for search and rescue, though that need went to the AW139. The Black Hawk platform is a tried and tested platform with massive worldwide adoption among civilian, government and armed forces users, and a distributed supply channel (with Turkey to begin manufacturing them soon). When the Army begins seeking Puma replacements, I will wager that the S-70 and UH-1Y as the leading options.

 

[django]

@flamer84