Pakistan Reaches Out for Russian Arms

[Keysersoze]

If the Price diffrence is so little between SU series and J-10 why dont we go for the SU's they are already tested and reliable aircraft and also handfull to establised some good relations between Russia and Pakistan

Figure it out...........Russia is a traditional ally of India. And therefore cannot be regarded as being a reliable source even IF they did agree to sell the aircraft.

 

[Keysersoze]

Ok, so how much does it cost, I got the 82 figure from keypub

As Wali said I think around $60 million would be correct. A block 60 costs $75-80 million.

 

[ahussains]

Figure it out...........Russia is a traditional ally of India. And therefore cannot be regarded as being a reliable source even IF they did agree to sell the aircraft.

Everyone very well know the long and old relations of Indians and Russians but we things can change at any time as we recive some MIL Mi17 Helicopters for the Army and also ordered some more ..... and a RD93 for J-17 with some technical assistance in desgin and in avionics by the russians ..... Its a new change in Russians policy

 

[Keysersoze]

Everyone very well know the long and old relations of Indians and Russians but we things can change at any time as we recive some MIL Mi17 Helicopters for the Army and also ordered some more ..... and a RD93 for J-17 with some technical assistance in desgin and in avionics by the russians ..... Its a new change in Russians policy

Actually not a lot has changed if you think about it. The Russians changed their mind regarding the Rd-93 because they make billions selling to CHINA not PAK. A few Mil Mi 17 helicopters does not signal a sea change. The Russians basically will follow the $ and will sell to those who pay the most.



However.....If say India decides to go with a alternate aircraft in the MRCA deal (to the MIG 35), then the Russians may look to expand their market. But that remains to be seen........

 

[intruder]

Figure it out...........Russia is a traditional ally of India. And therefore cannot be regarded as being a reliable source even IF they did agree to sell the aircraft.

Key, if my memory serves me correctly... US, Pakistans traditional ally has always withdrawn its support when Pakistan needed it most. Which makes me believe there is nothing as 'permanent or traditional' ally .... it changes with time and with country's own interset.

Your comments on this point Key....

 

[Keysersoze]

Key, if my memory serves me correctly... US, Pakistans traditional ally has always withdrawn its support when Pakistan needed it most. Which makes me believe there is nothing as 'permanent or traditional' ally .... it changes with time and with country's own interset.

Your comments on this point Key....

Actually thats a point of history and I think it is not entirely true. However it all boils down to common interest. If the common interest is no longer there then the "ally" will take their leave. thats true of India as well as PAK. However when I refer to traditional allies I refer to countries with whom there has been a long period of common interest. I have never said Permanent ally, as history tells us that is foolish. For example France and England were enemies for 100's of years and Germany and England were long term allies (The royal family is linked to Germany) however WW1 And WW2 changed that fairly quickly.

 

[fatman17]

all my esteemed colleagues r making strong justifications for their assumptions.
india/pak have a long way to go (unfortunately) in trusting each other.
russia would only sell offensive weapons systems to pakistan if india opts for us a/c in their RFP for MMRCA (according to arms control today website - us has offered F-16, F/A-18 and the F-35 to india v. the russian MiG-35). the website opines that most probably india will opt for the MiG-35.
if that is the case, then russia would only sell non-lethal weapons systems to pak like Mi-17 etc.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

My colleague, fatman, knows the right answer. Mil 17 is not considered an offensive weapon and niether is a HIND. These weapons are available to pakistan, if pakistan wants them bad enough. Now, coming down to the offensive weapons like the su 27-30, which can change the balance of power between india and pakistan, the ball is in india's court. The 126 plane order is a bitter pill to swallow---where do I go---should I stay with russia or should I go with the americans. If I go with america, I leave my flank open---if I go with the russians---ohhh I want to do that american 'b----h' F 18 so bad----.

That is why I have often said, if america would have given 1 to 2 squardons of F 16's within the first 90 days of war in afghanistan, the mindset of the pakistani public would have been totally different about the U S-----and these F 16's would not have shifted the balance of power a tad bit. The american policy makers didnot have the vision and foresight. It all comes down to balance of power and russians maynot take the first step to upset the cart.

What will ultimately come down to, will be the natural alliance between pakistan and russia and afghanistan and the americans will be enjoying their boy wonder for awhile. I never thought that a day would come for me to say that, but then I might be eating crow tomorrow, if india decides foer the russian fighter.

Pakistan needs to approach russia with a lots of caution---the russian bear is jittery.

 

[josh21x]

all my esteemed colleagues r making strong justifications for their assumptions.
india/pak have a long way to go (unfortunately) in trusting each other.
russia would only sell offensive weapons systems to pakistan if india opts for us a/c in their RFP for MMRCA (according to arms control today website - us has offered F-16, F/A-18 and the F-35 to india v. the russian MiG-35). the website opines that most probably india will opt for the MiG-35.
if that is the case, then russia would only sell non-lethal weapons systems to pak like Mi-17 etc.

Oh please not this argument again.

Moscow- Delhi ties goes far beyond your clearly amateur ramble.

How did India buy the Viraat(Ex-Hermes), Jaguars, Mirages, Bofors, Leander Frigates etc. Why didnt the Russians offer support to Pakistan then?
According to your wonderful theory, what happens if India goes Euro for MMRCA.
Do you know Russian Captains, Lt, of the Afghan war, are now Generals and decision makers. They will not forget what Pakistan did to them along with the US?
Who is the biggest profitteer of the Indo-US Nuclear Deal? Answer: France and Russia.
Do you know India is the partner of Russia with PAK-FA, a far bigger contract than MMRCA.
Do you know Russians alone are selling us nearly 3.5 billion dollars worth of equipments yearly.
Indian Defence Market for the next 5 years (read again 5 years)is valued at 70 billion dollars, Can pakistan match that. Russia is India's Best Friend Numero-Uno, India's no.1 Arms supplier. Russia is going to squander that away, oh puhleese.
How do you think India gets Uranium for its reactors?
India buys more than China for pete's sake, even China doesnt have access to what India has from Russia, Indias has far more access to the best russian tech.
I quote a Russian Diplomat "Moscow wont hear anything remotely anti-India".
Do you think Russians are obivilious to that fact, current Indian Airforce fleet is 75% Russain, and therefore any sane country will make it 50% or less. And it is also their good interest, that India gets more western tech, which will then trinkle down to the PAK-FA. Imagine Russians get info on Shornet and the likes.
Do you know India is getting strategic weapons such as Akula-2 SSN, Gorshkov, MiG-29K, Just ordered 3 more Kirvak 3 vessels.
India has a big Economy, world recognition and doesnt pose any threat to Russia, While China does.
Last not least, you grossly under-estimate Indian Diplomats and their Diplomatic skills, India's internal factors and its zeal for Independent forigen policy. You dont run coalition in India by being the lapdog of Soviet Union or USA.
Why wasnt India a lapdog of the Soviet Union?
And you think Pakistan can replace India in the slightest.

PS: Please dont bring the Iran vote, China and Russia, US voted against Iran along with India.

 

[josh21x]

Hi,

My colleague, fatman, knows the right answer. Mil 17 is not considered an offensive weapon and niether is a HIND. These weapons are available to pakistan, if pakistan wants them bad enough. Now, coming down to the offensive weapons like the su 27-30, which can change the balance of power between india and pakistan, the ball is in india's court. The 126 plane order is a bitter pill to swallow---where do I go---should I stay with russia or should I go with the americans. If I go with america, I leave my flank open---if I go with the russians---ohhh I want to do that american 'b----h' F 18 so bad----.

That is why I have often said, if america would have given 1 to 2 squardons of F 16's within the first 90 days of war in afghanistan, the mindset of the pakistani public would have been totally different about the U S-----and these F 16's would not have shifted the balance of power a tad bit. The american policy makers didnot have the vision and foresight. It all comes down to balance of power and russians maynot take the first step to upset the cart.

What will ultimately come down to, will be the natural alliance between pakistan and russia and afghanistan and the americans will be enjoying their boy wonder for awhile. I never thought that a day would come for me to say that, but then I might be eating crow tomorrow, if india decides foer the russian fighter.

Pakistan needs to approach russia with a lots of caution---the russian bear is jittery.

Sir,

you are far better than this

Admin Edit: I suggest you to avoid commenting like this to any member of Pakistan Defence.

 

[blain2]

I'd rather have better economic relations and a boost to trade between Pakistan and Russia than the Russian weapons exports coming into Pakistan. Pakistan will not be requiring very many major weapons systems from either the west or the Russians (by this I mean all major armament aside from avionics and high tech aircraft). The way current planning is going on, in the intermediary US and Western products are available...this gives Pakistan a bit more room to work with Chinese to see what they can do for us.

So Russian hardware, although good and if available, will never replace the Chinese and western hardware due to very many other reasons (Pakistan would not like to be in the same situation with the Russians as it has been in with the US)...with the induction of the JF-17, this is the first time when PAF can afford to deliberate and even say no to the US (there were quite a few things that were turned down by Pakistan on the F-16 deal as well). If Russians relent, then it just opens up one more major weapons outlet for Pakistan to explore.

Rest assured (Pakistanis), most of the major weapons will continue to come from China and the west for the foreseeable future. With the current PAF plans, there is not even any room for the capable Su-30 platform derivative.

 

[genmirajborgza786]

I'd rather have better economic relations and a boost to trade between Pakistan and Russia than the Russian weapons exports coming into Pakistan. Pakistan will not be requiring very many major weapons systems from either the west or the Russians (by this I mean all major armament aside from avionics and high tech aircraft). The way current planning is going on, in the intermediary US and Western products are available...this gives Pakistan a bit more room to work with Chinese to see what they can do for us.

So Russian hardware, although good and if available, will never replace the Chinese and western hardware due to very many other reasons (Pakistan would not like to be in the same situation with the Russians as it has been in with the US)...with the induction of the JF-17, this is the first time when PAF can afford to deliberate and even say no to the US (there were quite a few things that were turned down by Pakistan on the F-16 deal as well). If Russians relent, then it just opens up one more major weapons outlet for Pakistan to explore.

Rest assured (Pakistanis), most of the major weapons will continue to come from China and the west for the foreseeable future. With the current PAF plans, there is not even any room for the capable Su-30 platform derivative.

but what if the U.S stops giving weapons to Pakistan seeing the present political turmoil in Pakistan & the democrats agenda set to make its way in to the white house's foreign policy in the 2008 general U.S elections their is a chance of it big time in the U.S i am afraid even if the f16s being delivered to PAF chances are high of a sanctions also depends on Pakistan's domestic & political situation IMO.

 

[Keysersoze]

but what if the U.S stops giving weapons to Pakistan seeing the present political turmoil in Pakistan & the democrats agenda set to make its way in to the white house's foreign policy in the 2008 general U.S elections their is a chance of it big time in the U.S i am afraid even if the f16s being delivered to PAF chances are high of a sanctions also depends on Pakistan's domestic & political situation IMO.

Well they already have a NON -U.S. (Western) option already lined up in the event. They have no need to find options from Russia. I even know which platform they would opt for. However I am not at liberty to discuss the specifics. Neo would be able to back me up on this.

 

[bhangra12345]

Well they already have a NON -U.S. (Western) option already lined up in the event. They have no need to find options from Russia. I even know which platform they would opt for. However I am not at liberty to discuss the specifics. Neo would be able to back me up on this.

well you gave pretty good clues, so they are going for mirages, ok.

Deduction by elimination:eurofighter/typhoon too costly. rafale still in queue, mirages line is going to shutdown in few years, possibly pakistan wants their mirages to be the last run. assuming pakistan is going for first hand ofcourse. and then their most important plus point, they are the cheapest nuclear delivery option.

My advice if above deduction is right: Dont go for them. You would find spares(the last units always find this problem) and service costly.

 

[Keysersoze]

Actually the deduction is somewhat inaccurate and is not Mirages......I'll say that much.....