Pakistan possible answer against india nuclear submarine

[Screaming Skull]

first of all.. to a normal human beings the first question will arise... do humans have unlimited about of endurance let alone in a conjuncted sub?

100 days for 100 men in shifts? Don’t compare your endurance with that of trained military personnel. Read my previous post!

what a senseless to say... look... in pak indo context.. such enormous long distance does not matter... in event of war.. PN will try to gain a strategic point by sending few subs armed with cruise missiles on the other side of india (extreme east)..

So, you plan to take out a sub with a cruise missile? Very intelligent indeed!

while india will try to blockade PAK in Arabian see which is not that huge of a distance..

India will try to do this, Pak will try to do that! Of course you are the genius here with the crystal orb!

in order for this nuclear sub to take full potential out of its 3000km range SLBM they have to get 1500 or so km close to pak coastal area..

What nonsense is this? No word of the above sentence makes any sense. Why would it have to get 1500 km close to ur coast when it has a range of 3000km.

and again.... you are diverting the main subject of this Type-214 being the nuclear sub hunter... with your own ego satisfying posts..

Ooooh m so scared! U-214 s nuke sub hunter! But you still can’t explain how it will get close to the Arihant (Destroyer of enemies by the way!) to hunt it!

now those who think indians are very intelligent and educated should commit suicide after reading this comic story..

Naaaah, intelligent and educated Indians only laugh to a comic story unlike some unintelligent and uneducated trolls!

you think NAVAL WARFARE COLLAGE is made for just pass time?? and in event of war... they will say... naaaaaaa. IN nuclear sub is 3,000km away from us... it will be waist of time to catch them so lets just take a nap...
I don’t know for what the Naval warfare college is made for
and btw... this is Type-214 we are talking about... its unique fuel cells AIP system can make way pass your estimated guess of just few weeks lol.. in fact it can travel about 90 days..

Genius! Let s see what an educated and intelligent Pakistani does after reading this part! 90 days without snorkeling!!!!!! Of course! I forgot, it s PN we are talking bout. They make super duper things happen. Go get your facts right kiddo!

oh please tell those dumb Germans who are so deluded that they can take on russian nuclear subs with their type-212..

No maybe I should just tell those dumb Yankees and the brits instead who don’t operate a single conventional sub!

i must knock their doors with your very wonderful piece of enlightening post.. please can i plagiarize your work and maybe those germans will be so impressed and offer me a job in their Naval war collage..

Oh please do if you are so jobless! May your ‘dreams’ of getting into their Naval war college come true!

 

[Screaming Skull]

First get a Ballistic Missile with a range of 3000 KM installed in the Arihant and THEN we'll talk about how far we'd have to go to sink your boat.

Speculations are healthy, but let's not get carried away.

And you get the mighty 'Nuke Sub Hunter-U214' first and then device ways of taking out Arihant!

"Speculations are healthy, but let's not get carried away."

On a more serious note, don't quote me out of context. Read my post again, I have mentioned the expected time line ie 2011-2012. And what makes you think that it won't be installed by the time the Arihant is inducted into IN? I can show you reports where they say that the sub launched version of Agni-3 (3.5k km range) has been tested already.

 

[Beskar]

And you get the mighty 'Nuke Sub Hunter-U214' first and then device ways of taking out Arihant!

"Speculations are healthy, but let's not get carried away."

On a more serious note, don't quote me out of context. Read my post again, I have mentioned the expected time line ie 2011-2012. And what makes you think that it won't be installed by the time the Arihant is inducted into IN? I can show you reports where they say that the sub launched version of Agni-3 (3.5k km range) has been tested already.

I didn't said anything about the U-214. Arihant can be easily hunted even today with conventional means if found taking its chances anywhere near our waters. But that's not the point.

There's no doubt that Agni-3 might have a range of 3.5k KM. The point was that fitting a ballistic missile (with a 3500+ range) which almost qualifies as an ICBM, is not an easy job. Definitely not going to happen by 2012.

 

[Screaming Skull]

I didn't said anything about the U-214.

You didn’t say that. But the guys for whom my post was meant said that and that is why I said don’t quote me out of context!

Arihant can be easily hunted even today with conventional means if found taking its chances in our waters.

My only argument through out this thread has been that the range and endurance of Arihant is far greater than any conventional sub PN has or intends to buy. I even went as far as to say that it can be 3000km away from Pak coast and still be mighty effective. Even the base where it is stationed right now is just about 2000-2500 km away from Karachi. So, with a 3000 km SLBM it won’t even have to leave its base to do the job. When that is the case, why would it get into your territorial waters?

There's no doubt that Agni-3 might have a range of 3.5 KM. The point was that fitting a ballistic missile (with a 3500+ range) which almost qualifies as an ICBM, is not an easy job. Definitely not going to happen by 2012.

Read this-

A miniaturised submarine-launched version of the Agni-III called Agni-III SL is also being developed and could be test-fired shortly.

The Hindu News Update Service

That news appeared about a year back. And there are roomers that it has already been tested and the test was hushed up due to obvious reasons. Any way, if it was planned to be tested in 2008, 2011-2012 is a good time gap I have given for complete development.

 

[waz]

Both screaming skull and Bezerk have points. In plain and simple terms the 214 does not have the endurance of the Indian submarine, so in theory, will be placed so far away that an engagement, by the 214 will be made impossible. However, yes it is true that the 214 and most of the other diesel electric submarines have a significant edge, over their nuclear counterparts in a confrontation. This was clearly seen to devastating effect in the joint US/Australian war games, and earlier the Swedish US Naval exercises. The “Sheehan”and “Waller” both sank US nuclear class submarines, repeatedly during engagements. The “Gotland” class also achieved a similar feat, before it was leased out as part of the US Navy’s groundbreaking research into countering such submarines.

 

[MastanKhan]

That was in response to the several other simplistic statements made before my post and wasn’t meant for a learned member such as you.



Hi,

My goodman---this spec sheet is not going to work---you are trying to use specs and reasoning behind your post---in submarine warfare---top speed is the sound of death for a submarine---please try to understand that---one can only brag about the top speed when one is not knowledgeable about undersea warfare---at speeds over 10 knots the subs start getting practically blind and can't hear or see anyone---.

At 20 knots they are practically clueless who is around them or what is happening around the theatre---close to 30 knots they may run into amountain and maynot know if it was there---just an example---though through the prior mapping of oceans, they would know what is ahead---it did happen to a u s nuclear sub last year I bvelieve---it ran into a mound at high speed.

Remember the u s nuclear sub surfacing in open oceans close to hawaii about 6---10 years ago---a high speed surfacing---they didnot even know what they hit or what they killed---they rammed into a tour boat full of japanese tourists and killed them all---and dinot even know about it for awhile---because of high speed surfacing---.

The slower the speed---the better the electronics---better your sonarman / electronics officer is ---the silent the submarine is---is a recipe for the winner---regardless of its being a nuclear or a diesel---.

Did you ever read about the pakistani diesel that had the u s navy aircraft carrier in its firing solution in 1976 or 78 in the aribian sea---.

 

[SinoIndusFriendship]

That was in response to the several other simplistic statements made before my post and wasn’t meant for a learned member such as you.



Hi,

My goodman---this spec sheet is not going to work---you are trying to use specs and reasoning behind your post---in submarine warfare---top speed is the sound of death for a submarine---please try to understand that---one can only brag about the top speed when one is not knowledgeable about undersea warfare---at speeds over 10 knots the subs start getting practically blind and can't hear or see anyone---.

At 20 knots they are practically clueless who is around them or what is happening around the theatre---close to 30 knots they may run into amountain and maynot know if it was there---just an example---though through the prior mapping of oceans, they would know what is ahead---it did happen to a u s nuclear sub last year I bvelieve---it ran into a mound at high speed.

Remember the u s nuclear sub surfacing in open oceans close to hawaii about 6---10 years ago---a high speed surfacing---they didnot even know what they hit or what they killed---they rammed into a tour boat full of japanese tourists and killed them all---and dinot even know about it for awhile---because of high speed surfacing---.

The slower the speed---the better the electronics---better your sonarman / electronics officer is ---the silent the submarine is---is a recipe for the winner---regardless of its being a nuclear or a diesel---.

Did you ever read about the pakistani diesel that had the u s navy aircraft carrier in its firing solution in 1976 or 78 in the aribian sea---.

Thanks for sharing this informative info.

 

[Screaming Skull]

Hi,

My goodman---this spec sheet is not going to work---you are trying to use specs and reasoning behind your post---in submarine warfare---top speed is the sound of death for a submarine---please try to understand that---one can only brag about the top speed when one is not knowledgeable about undersea warfare---at speeds over 10 knots the subs start getting practically blind and can't hear or see anyone---.

At 20 knots they are practically clueless who is around them or what is happening around the theatre---close to 30 knots they may run into amountain and maynot know if it was there---just an example---though through the prior mapping of oceans, they would know what is ahead---it did happen to a u s nuclear sub last year I bvelieve---it ran into a mound at high speed.

Remember the u s nuclear sub surfacing in open oceans close to hawaii about 6---10 years ago---a high speed surfacing---they didnot even know what they hit or what they killed---they rammed into a tour boat full of japanese tourists and killed them all---and dinot even know about it for awhile---because of high speed surfacing---.

Dear Sir, is that all you found of interest in my post? I think you misinterpreted what I wanted to say! Though I completely endorse your views on efficacy of a sub at low speeds, my primary argument was never about speed, it was about 'range and endurance'! You can scale down the speed in my analysis from 25kts to 5kts if you like. But that still gives the sub a range of 55500/5=11100km from base!

The slower the speed---the better the electronics---better your sonarman / electronics officer is ---the silent the submarine is---is a recipe for the winner---regardless of its being a nuclear or a diesel---.

It is a recipe for a winner only if both decide to tango with each other! Why don’t you understand that a nuke powered SSBN is never meant to fight with the enemy vessels? It is merely a launch platform for ballistic missiles and will be thousands of miles away from the theater of conflict, where no enemy vessel can reach it! The responsibility of fighting the enemy vessels lies with attack subs (conventional or nuke powered) and there your argument is absolutely valid!

Did you ever read about the pakistani diesel that had the u s navy aircraft carrier in its firing solution in 1976 or 78 in the aribian sea---.

I think you answered the question yourself! The Pakistani diesel could lock on to the US carrier because it was in the Arabian Sea. That s exactly what I am trying to highlight here, the Indian SSBN will never be in the Arabian Sea or anywhere close to your vessels or where they can potentially get!

 

[Screaming Skull]

Both screaming skull and Bezerk have points. In plain and simple terms the 214 does not have the endurance of the Indian submarine, so in theory, will be placed so far away that an engagement, by the 214 will be made impossible.

You have summed up the essence of my posts very nicely!

“so in theory, will be placed so far away that an engagement, by the 214 will be made impossible”

that is the bottomline!

However, yes it is true that the 214 and most of the other diesel electric submarines have a significant edge, over their nuclear counterparts in a confrontation. This was clearly seen to devastating effect in the joint US/Australian war games, and earlier the Swedish US Naval exercises. The “Sheehan”and “Waller” both sank US nuclear class submarines, repeatedly during engagements. The “Gotland” class also achieved a similar feat, before it was leased out as part of the US Navy’s groundbreaking research into countering such submarines.

The U214 is indeed very advanced and I never denied that. But, you have to understand that there is nothing like a ‘Nuclear class sub’ as you mention in your post. They are nuclear powered and are of two types- the ballistic missile subs and the attack subs. The SSBNs like the Indian Arihant will never enter a potential conflict zone. In fact, it will be stationed as far away from the conflict zone as possible. However, the primary responsibility of a nuke attack sub is to find and hunt down enemy vessels just like any other conventional sub. In that conflict, what you have said may be true and the U214 may indeed have an edge over certain nuclear powered attack subs!

 

[SBD-3]

hump interesting to know that IN has got a Nuke Sub finally, congratz on that.Coming to topic what i got from wiki was that

Ballistic missile submarines differ in purpose from attack submarines and cruise missile submarines; while attack submarines specialise in combat with other naval vessels (including enemy submarines and merchant shipping), and cruise missile submarines are designed to attack large warships and tactical targets on land, the primary mission of the ballistic missile is nuclear deterrence.

considering Pakistan been able to equip its Agostas and possible U-214s(which are rumored to be inherently able to fire Cruise Missiles with out any significant upgrades) if we are able to develop and deployed the reportedly under development long range version of Babur Cruise Missile (Expected range 1000KM) we don't need to develop any Nuke subs Our horses will pose enough deterrent to IN in terms of both ACs as well as land targets giving PN nuke tirade as desired by IN by building arihant.
Furthermore, With E-2 Hawk eyes and SAAB and ZDK-03 awacs on our side the early detection of any such launch will be possible and subsequent measures will be easily deployed.We don't need SSBNs when we can develop SSGNs offering more precision,economy and felxibility

 

[SinoIndusFriendship]

hump interesting to know that IN has got a Nuke Sub finally, congratz on that.Coming to topic what i got from wiki was that

considering Pakistan been able to equip its Agostas and possible U-214s(which are rumored to be inherently able to fire Cruise Missiles with out any significant upgrades) if we are able to develop and deployed the reportedly under development long range version of Babur Cruise Missile (Expected range 1000KM) we don't need to develop any Nuke subs Our horses will pose enough deterrent to IN in terms of both ACs as well as land targets giving PN nuke tirade as desired by IN by building arihant.
Furthermore, With E-2 Hawk eyes and SAAB and ZDK-03 awacs on our side the early detection of any such launch will be possible and subsequent measures will be easily deployed.We don't need SSBNs when we can develop SSGNs offering more precision,economy and felxibility

Good point. It's called "Asymmetrical Warfare" (or Guerilla warfare). Highly effective - both cost and results.

 

[amarnath]

hump interesting to know that IN has got a Nuke Sub finally, congratz on that.Coming to topic what i got from wiki was that

considering Pakistan been able to equip its Agostas and possible U-214s(which are rumored to be inherently able to fire Cruise Missiles with out any significant upgrades) if we are able to develop and deployed the reportedly under development long range version of Babur Cruise Missile (Expected range 1000KM) we don't need to develop any Nuke subs Our horses will pose enough deterrent to IN in terms of both ACs as well as land targets giving PN nuke tirade as desired by IN by building arihant.
Furthermore, With E-2 Hawk eyes and SAAB and ZDK-03 awacs on our side the early detection of any such launch will be possible and subsequent measures will be easily deployed.We don't need SSBNs when we can develop SSGNs offering more precision,economy and felxibility

Babur cruise missile as you state has a maximum operational range of 700kms. with a speed of MACH 0.8. By the time it reaches here, we can launch either shourya missile with a speed of more than MACH 4.Or Interceptor missile.Or sagarika from Arihant.

 

[SBD-3]

here is something interesting
SSBN

14 nuclear-powered SSBNs (ballistic missile submarines), each armed with 24 Trident II SLBMs; they are also known as "Trident" submarines, and provide the sea-based leg of the nuclear triad of the United States strategic nuclear weapons arsenal

SSGN

4 nuclear-powered SSGNs (cruise missile submarines),each capable of carrying 154 Tomahawk cruise missileswith conventional warheads

no wonder PN is looking towards SL version of Babur as since babur can be equipped with Nuke Warhead one can imagine the capacity

 

[Mercenary]

Pakistan needs to stop competing with India on every military purchase.

India is a big country, with a bigger GDP, more foreign countries invest in India and thus India can afford to acquire big ticket items like Nuclear Submarines, Aircraft carriers, etc...

We need more defensive capability rather than offensive capability.

Our Missiles can do the offensive damage.

To counter the Indian Navy, we need to acquire some Naval Fighters such as F-18, Harriers, etc. Around 32 to 48 should be enough deployed in various naval bases.

Then we need ships armed with latest anti-submarine torpedoes and coastal batteries to hammer any Indian Submarine that comes close to the Pakistani coast.

We should also try to get the Iranians to give us the Sunburn Missile and try to reverse engineer it. It is a deadly Anti-ship missile which even gives the Mighty US Navy pause.

Having an arsenal of 500 Sunburn Missiles can devastate the Indian Navy.

Offensive weapons are expensive and we don't need them. We need to guard Pakistan and thus we need defensive weaponry.

 

[amarnath]

Pakistan needs to stop competing with India on every military purchase.

India is a big country, with a bigger GDP, more foreign countries invest in India and thus India can afford to acquire big ticket items like Nuclear Submarines, Aircraft carriers, etc...

We need more defensive capability rather than offensive capability.

Our Missiles can do the offensive damage.

To counter the Indian Navy, we need to acquire some Naval Fighters such as F-18, Harriers, etc. Around 32 to 48 should be enough deployed in various naval bases.

Then we need ships armed with latest anti-submarine torpedoes and coastal batteries to hammer any Indian Submarine that comes close to the Pakistani coast.

We should also try to get the Iranians to give us the Sunburn Missile and try to reverse engineer it. It is a deadly Anti-ship missile which even gives the Mighty US Navy pause.

Having an arsenal of 500 Sunburn Missiles can devastate the Indian Navy.

Offensive weapons are expensive and we don't need them. We need to guard Pakistan and thus we need defensive weaponry.

both our country started from scrap after the british rule, So it make effort to develop a country. So If you can get 500 sunburn, As u said, that How much can we counter? I Respect your attitude. Keep it up friend