Pakistan Navy's Submarine Plans: S-20 vs Type 214

[Indus Falcon]

I've indicated what public sources indicate. Are you suggesting I deliberately changed things?
Do you have public sources that suggest otherwise?


ABM has NOTHING to do with submarine launch. I've not said ANYTHING about Pakistan's ABM capabilities. WHAT DISCOMFORT (If India and Pakistan want to nuke the crap out of each other, not my problem (to the extent that I do live on the same planet, it is of course a problem if you guys **** it up for the rest of us earthlings))? This is in your mind only.


Ok, this basically mean you want to make claims but not back them up. That means you are not serious about discussing the topic.


You do think I doubt things, see above second item. You have no idea with whom I have or do not have interactions, nor do you know in what manner I interact with various professionals. Point is "I've heard, I've been told" is not a reliable, verifiable source. Particularly when you're using a medium that requires you to type. As for you attempts to insult, please keep it up and I will simply report you and move on to fruitfull discussion with people who have manners, an actual interest and willingness to discus.


There is nothing arrogant about asking for sources. It is standard practise in all the sciences, for example. The point here is that non-public info - whatever its quality (and I haven't claimed hearsay necessarily is poor quality) - is not verifiable: I can't go an read the same piece you have to see if I would come to the same conclusion or interpretation of data (and vice versa).


This is precisely the type of (unneccessarily) defensive response I was talking about. Hey, if you want to be combattive and unsulting, be my guest. I'll report and move on.


Whatever. Nevermind that you haven't seen or been provided detail such as exacty what kind of sub with what qualities (including missile launch mechanisms).


I always do, in spite of negativism I sometimes encounter here from those with an inferiority complex.

Enjoy!

You are being silly as usual. Why would PN reveal it's SLBM capability when they don't have a delivery platform as yet?
Why can't the new subs coming in have 4, or 6, silos instead of 2, like you keep on repeating? Why can't it be a new sub design, unlike the Golf derivatives you keep repeating?

He is a serving officer, and knows a lot more than you for sure, who keeps going round in circles chasing his own tail, copying and pasting. Had you been following Pakistani Media, and this forum, most of what he said would have made sense to you.

Asking him to provide sources is not only silly, but unrealistic. But what else can be expected from you?

And stop talking like a 3 year old, "I'll report you, I'll report you,I'll report you." If you want to, go ahead and do it, but atleast stop behaving immaturely! Using childish words like "Whatever" don't help your case either.

 

[Cool_Soldier]

well, current focus is to acquire capability to fire N-Tiped cruise missile from Submarines. SLBM is still much far away to achieve.
In that regard, S-20 and Babur will fulfill the required need.

As already mentioned by PAK Navy, it has plan to produce Nuclear Sub, Might be SLBM will be added there after a decade.

 

[Penguin]

You are being silly as usual. Why would PN reveal it's SLBM capability when they don't have a delivery platform as yet?

Excuse me, but folks here are talking about S-20 or a variant thereof and Type 032 as submarine platforms. Meanwhile, nobody is discussing missile systems to be used (as if current landlaunched missiles would automatically fit Chinese ballistic missile silo's, not even considering development of a dedicated new missile or purchase of a Chinese (or other non-Pakistan e.g. North Korean) submarine launch ballistic missile).

Why can't the new subs coming in have 4, or 6, silos instead of 2, like you keep on repeating? Why can't it be a new sub design, unlike the Golf derivatives you keep repeating?

If Pakistan acquires Type 032, as many here claim, than that has been designed with 2 silos in the sail. I don't make that up.Clearly, if Pakistan purchases an SSBN from China (e.g. 094 or 096) then yes there will be more silos. But this is not what is being claimed here, by others than myself. I could even see a denuclearized SSBN (much like the French SSK offered to Australia, derived from an SSN but conventionally powered). But that is not being claimed here plus there is little or nothing to support that scenario.

He is a serving officer, and knows a lot more than you for sure, who keeps going round in circles chasing his own tail, copying and pasting. Had you been following Pakistani Media, and this forum, most of what he said would have made sense to you.

Hahaha, lame. "had you been following this forum"

Clearly, not being a Pakistani, I do not serve in the Pakistani military. But that is about the extent of what you can know about my milittary background or connections. Besides Dutch and English language media, I take - among others - also media in French, German, Afrikaans. Pakistani media also are available in English language versions. It is you guys going around and around. I'm here discussing certain submarines. You guys bring in ABM and other matters that are not or remotely relevant in the discussion of SLBM capability. You can't even be bothered to read what I posted (otherwise you would realize there is more than cut past going on, but oh you did already know that and you simply don't agree but don
't want to be bothered with actually entering into a discusison based on valid arguments and backed up by something other than 'what you heard' etc. Being a serving officer may make you knowledgable about certain things, but it doesn't automatically or necessarily make you right, particularly if you serve in a branch or capacity where you don't have access to relevant information.

Asking him to provide sources is not only silly, but unrealistic. But what else can be expected from you?

It is not silly. The least he could do is admit he is aware that there is no support for his argument in the public domain. And another thing is to stop this ludicrous attitude as if I have dissed Pakistan's military capabily or something. If that is what you believe, you have misread and misinterpreted my posts.

You remarks directed at my person are a weak and non-substantive counter.
They demonstrate you have no point

And stop talking like a 3 year old, "I'll report you, I'll report you,I'll report you." If you want to, go ahead and do it, but atleast stop behaving immaturely! Using childish words like "Whatever" don't help your case either.

Just doing what forum management explicitly keeps asking from the membership.
As for childish, take a good look in the mirror.

You remarks directed at my person are a weak and non-substantive counter.
They demonstrate you have no point

 

[Khafee]

I've indicated what public sources indicate. Are you suggesting I deliberately changed things?
Do you have public sources that suggest otherwise?


ABM has NOTHING to do with submarine launch. I've not said ANYTHING about Pakistan's ABM capabilities. There is publicly available info on land launched ballistic missiles of Pakistan. No one is denying Pakistan's ability to produce balllistic missiles. However, there is nothing (that I've coime across) that suggest testing from submerged silo has taken place, or is scheduled. Based on reference to Type 032, there are certain size limitations, that preclude many existing land models from being used. The MIRV capability only matters because Type 32 has just 2 silos. WHAT DISCOMFORT (If India and Pakistan want to nuke the crap out of each other, not my problem (to the extent that I do live on the same planet, it is of course a problem if you guys **** it up for the rest of us earthlings))? This is in your mind only.


Ok, this basically mean you want to make claims but not back them up. That means you are not serious about discussing the topic.


You do think I doubt things, see above second item. You have no idea with whom I have or do not have interactions, nor do you know in what manner I interact with various professionals. Point is "I've heard, I've been told" is not a reliable, verifiable source. Particularly when you're using a medium that requires you to type. As for you attempts to insult, please keep it up and I will simply report you and move on to fruitfull discussion with people who have manners, an actual interest and willingness to discus.


There is nothing arrogant about asking for sources. It is standard practise in all the sciences, for example. The point here is that non-public info - whatever its quality (and I haven't claimed hearsay necessarily is poor quality) - is not verifiable: I can't go an read the same piece you have to see if I would come to the same conclusion or interpretation of data (and vice versa).


This is precisely the type of (unneccessarily) defensive response I was talking about. Hey, if you want to be combattive and unsulting, be my guest. I'll report and move on.


Whatever. Nevermind that you haven't seen or been provided detail such as exacty what kind of sub with what qualities (including missile launch mechanisms).


I always do, in spite of negativism I sometimes encounter here from those with an inferiority complex.

Enjoy!

How old are you, 4?

As to the rest of your clueless rants, I will not dignify your pathetic rants with a response. Feel free to live in your fantasy world.

You are being silly as usual. Why would PN reveal it's SLBM capability when they don't have a delivery platform as yet?
Why can't the new subs coming in have 4, or 6, silos instead of 2, like you keep on repeating? Why can't it be a new sub design, unlike the Golf derivatives you keep repeating?

He is a serving officer, and knows a lot more than you for sure, who keeps going round in circles chasing his own tail, copying and pasting. Had you been following Pakistani Media, and this forum, most of what he said would have made sense to you.

Asking him to provide sources is not only silly, but unrealistic. But what else can be expected from you?

And stop talking like a 3 year old, "I'll report you, I'll report you,I'll report you." If you want to, go ahead and do it, but atleast stop behaving immaturely! Using childish words like "Whatever" don't help your case either.

Sir, Ignore him, he is just an online wannabe, who has no idea how the real world operates, or what happens in it.

Joe bhonktay hain, woh kaat-tay nahi.

 

[Blue Marlin]

How old are you, 4?

As to the rest of your clueless rants, I will not dignify your pathetic rants with a response. Feel free to live in your fantasy world.



Sir, Ignore him, he is just an online wannabe, who has no idea how the real world operates, or what happens in it.

Joe bhonktay hain, woh kaat-tay nahi.

come one now penguin has valid points.
i do recall oscar talking about slams being the main platform in the triad. but considering pakistans economy and capability i don't see an slam being in public service for at least 15 years. an slcm i expect they'd be ready as you said so your self.
yes pakistan has plenty of friends in saudi arabia and china and mongolia who'd be happy to test their missiles not questioning that. but this is unconfirmed reports by a guy on a screen, I'm not gonna ask for evidence as i know I'm not gonna get it but that don't mean I'm gonna disregard it as hearsay.

also why did you mention the aim and the mire's i could have sworn this thread is about the t214 vs s20.
a comment on the babur slcm would have been more appropriate.

 

[Khafee]

come one now penguin has valid points.
i do recall oscar talking about slams being the main platform in the triad. but considering pakistans economy and capability i don't see an slam being in public service for at least 15 years. an slcm i expect they'd be ready as you said so your self.
yes pakistan has plenty of friends in saudi arabia and china and mongolia who'd be happy to test their missiles not questioning that. but this is unconfirmed reports by a guy on a screen, I'm not gonna ask for evidence as i know I'm not gonna get it but that don't mean I'm gonna disregard it as hearsay.

also why did you mention the aim and the mire's i could have sworn this thread is about the t214 vs s20.
a comment on the babur slcm would have been more appropriate.

Pakistan is working on a lot of systems, but I'm not going to be the one "breaking the news." Let haters burn, see if I care.

 

[Blue Marlin]

Pakistan is working on a lot of systems, but I'm not going to be the one "breaking the news." Let haters burn, see if I care.

why mention it in the first place,

 

[Hassan Guy]

well, current focus is to acquire capability to fire N-Tiped cruise missile from Submarines. SLBM is still much far away to achieve.
In that regard, S-20 and Babur will fulfill the required need.

As already mentioned by PAK Navy, it has plan to produce Nuclear Sub, Might be SLBM will be added there after a decade.

I couldn't read a more wrong comment.

North Korea has built SLBM's, this tech has been around since the 60's.

 

[SQ8]

@Penguin
The shaheen is an entirely solid fuel program. I cannot offer anything on this beside my word unfortunately, but I cannot not post regarding liquid fuelled as incorrect information.

The ghauri is purely the Nodong with some improvised guidance added over the years based on improving technology.
The first ghauris were literally painted over Nodongs.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

@Khafee

Sir,
I see people using half facts to justify their biased analyses. Before May 28, 1998, many were in doubt around the globe that whether Pakistan had any nuclear capability and Pakistan tested within 15 days of Indian nuclear tests demonstrated how ready the 3rd world country was for it.

I'm sure our 2nd strike capability has been ensured and augmented without going into details as GoP is muted so why should I mumble. I will wait until the GoP decides to make it public at some suitable time as it with nukes and so far it has worked perfectly Alhamdulillah. The acquisition of 6+2 subs from China will further diversify and strengthen it.

IMHO, when Rahmetli Zia-ul-Hak personally delivered the message to the Indian PM, he had no doubt...

 

[Indus Falcon]

People might be interested to know that when Pakistan conducts Missile tests, especially over water, neighboring countries, not just India, but Iran, Oman, and UAE are informed in advance.

 

[Hassan Guy]

@Penguin
The shaheen is an entirely solid fuel program. I cannot offer anything on this beside my word unfortunately, but I cannot not post regarding liquid fuelled as incorrect information.

The ghauri is purely the Nodong with some improvised guidance added over the years based on improving technology.
The first ghauris were literally painted over Nodongs.

Which in themselves are just glorified Scuds.

 

[Indus Falcon]

Which in themselves are just glorified Scuds.

Not really, couple of generation difference.

 

[Indus Falcon]

Hi @Khafee
You probably forgot to add ion plasma rifles and anti matter derives? How about you back it up with something other than individual fantasies or something concrete like statements from the designers,GoP, demonstrated capabilities, published literature etc or some tests to indicate that Pakistan is indeed working on SLBM,ABM,MIRV etc ?

Since India has demonstrated both SLBM and ABM capability,I find no reason to believe why wouldn't Pakistan demonstrate such a capability(if it really had any of those), after all every Pakistani response is a counter to India's, isn't it?

Ask the Chinese about HQ9 & Pakistan, then go and cry.

 

[Hassan Guy]

Not really, couple of generation difference.

Exactly
Scud A,B,C, or D?