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Pakistan Navy's Submarine Plans: S-20 vs Type 214

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@Penguin DCNS recently unveiled the SMX 3.0 concept with a vertical launch system for 'missiles and drones.' Cruise missile VLS is evidently being studied by at least one Western naval vendor, could be something that may see wider spread application in the medium to long-term.

http://en.dcnsgroup.com/news/dcns-u...t-ship-tailored-to-the-needs-of-generation-z/
Yeah, I read that at http://www.defesanet.com.br/en/euro...AL---DCNS-unveils-Submarine-Concept-SMX-3-0-/

In reality, as things stand today, only the US has submarine VLS operational. The Russian have had it in their portfolio of export offerings for quite some time. And now it appear France is moving in this direction.

However, I don't see it displayed yet in imagery. And isn't operational afaik.

In relation to the Chinese boats ordered by Pakistan, four S20 submarines will be constructed in China and will be provided to Pakistan Navy in 2022-23 while the remaining four submarines will be constructed in Pakistan, at Karachi Shipyard, and will be handed over to Pakistan Navy in 2028. Question is a) would a French VLS be available within this timeframe and b) would the French be willing to sell/deliverer for installation into the ****-Sino boats and c) would China allow that (e.g. if it has a domestic system to offer)?

ps are you sure it is not referring to A3SM

I believe So.
What Tubes Agusta 90b have.
The Agosta 90B submarine is fitted with four bow 533mm torpedo tubes and has the capacity to carry a mixed load of up to 16 torpedoes and missiles. The submarine can be equipped with the ECAN F17 mod 2 torpedo, which is a wire-guided torpedo with active and passive homing to a range of 20km. The torpedo delivers a 250kg warhead to a depth of 600m. The Agosta 90B is equipped with the torpedo tube launched MBDA (formerly EADS Aerospatiale) Exocet SM39 missile.
 
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533 mm eq .533 meter or 20.98425 inches or 1.74869 foot, if missile is .522 meter dia then it can be fired or you modify the missile to make it fit 533 tubes, if spending billions on subs then spend few million on weapons mod

or just add 650 Millimeter = 25.59055 Inch tubes like Israeli dolphin has 2 X 650 mm and 4 X 533 mm std tubes
 
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Or the Chinese have already developed a Submarine VLS system .One that could hold upto 7 cruise missiles, instead of 1 SBLM.

LACM%20VLS.jpg
 
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@Penguin isn't the PLAN Qing technology demonstrator equipped with VLS for cruise missiles? The mock up here suggests there is a 2x2 VLS.

Do you see any on the actual submarine? The difference between the actual sub and the model appears to be a hull plug containing the four VL tubes in between the forward diving planes and the two deck apertures (black and orange). In any case, the model is not of the boat as currently built but of a future version. Then again, one also cannot see the ballistic missiles launcher hatches. So, either it is not thus fitted, or we can't at present find a good image showing any of the missile armament. Unlike the torpedo tube hatches.

Chinese+Type+032+QING+Class+Diesel-Electric+Ballistic+Missile+Submarine+pla+navy+export+pakistan+ballistic+missile+cruise+missile+antiship++%25287%2529.jpg


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Or the Chinese have already developed a Submarine VLS system .One that could hold upto 7 cruise missiles, instead of 1 SBLM.

LACM%20VLS.jpg
If they have, that presupposes the presence ballistic missile launch tubes..... so, not really relevant in the case of the Pakistan submarine order for some S-20 variant. This would give Type 032 Qing class potential for up to 14 VL cruisemissiles. What missiles is this capable of launching?

... and it sure happens to look a lot like the US Multiple-all up round canister (MAC)!!!
mil010803subb.jpg


vertical%2Blaunch%2Bsystem.jpg
 
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If they have, that presupposes the presence ballistic missile launch tubes..... so, not really relevant in the case of the Pakistan submarine order for some S-20 variant. This would give Type 032 Qing class potential for up to 14 VL cruisemissiles. What missiles is this capable of launching?

... and it sure happens to look a lot like the US Multiple-all up round canister Assembly Canister (MAC)!!!

Well you are entitled to your opinion, but my view is that the new PN subs will have SLBM capability, and will have the capability to launch CM's either via the torpedo tubes, dedicated VL tubes or MAC's. This decision has been taken by PN.
 
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Well you are entitled to your opinion, but my view is that the new PN subs will have SLBM capability, and will have the capability to launch CM's either via the torpedo tubes, dedicated VL tubes or MAC's. This decision has been taken by PN.
You left out a critical part of that sentence, namely "for some S-20 variant" (which is the topic of discussion of this thread). However much you may not like it, this does not have ballistic missiles silos, nor does the S-26 varient for Thailand. Only Type 32 has those, and they go through the coning tower and out the pressure hull bottom due to the length of the silo's, they are not a simple hull plug.

Put differently, a VL launcher for a cruise missile like Tomahawk (length including booster = 6.25m) or Babur (quoted as being 7m incl booster) could fit within the diameter of the pressure hull of both Type 039A (8.4m) and S-20 (8m). For a longer missile e.g. Brahmos (8.4m), Russia's 3M14T/TE (8.9m) and probably China's CJ-10, one would need a hump on an 8m diameter hull or a broader beam boat (e.g. Type 032 > 10m)

You do agree that the image of that supposed Chinese multipack cruise missile launcher you posted is a rip-off from the image I posted (which doesn't mean the Chinese haven't a launcher, just that that isn't a real picture of it)?

I've repeatedly indicate my expectation that PN will have submarines with tubelaunched land attack cruise missiles. As for vertical launch, I've discussed what I see in the market. As for SLBM launchers, that requires a submarine alltogether different from S-20/S-26. A 2-tube boat like Type 032 doesn't IMHO make for a good component of a nuclear triad, seeing as it could carry just 2 SLBMs, which is limited firepower, unless each missile has e.g. three or four warheads like JL-2 (but even then, it is capable of hitting at most 6-8 targets). Which ballistic missile would Pakistan put on board a Type 032? That boat with 2x6 or 2x7 VL cruise missiles could also have interesting firepower (12-14 targets). But as I showed, I have good reason to doubt the image posted. As for 4 hull mounted VL tubes in Type 032, I can't really see them on the available images, can you? So, I can't really be sure they are actually there. There's a model that suggests they are, but that is about as far as pictoral evidence goes at this point.

JL-1_and_JL-2.PNG
 
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Pakistan could join Turkish National Submarine Development Team for the new Piri Reis Class of Turkish Navy. Both countries would benefit, cause almost all important systems are developed and Made in Turkey. For me VLS is not so imprtant. Pakistan is comparable with Israel a regional power and their nuclear arms are only a deterrence against India. Israel has submarine (larger then the original designed tube) tube launched Turbo Popeyes with nuclear warheads with enough range to engage traditional enemies.
 
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Pakistan could join Turkish National Submarine Development Team for the new Piri Reis Class of Turkish Navy. Both countries would benefit, cause almost all important systems are developed and Made in Turkey. For me VLS is not so imprtant. Pakistan is comparable with Israel a regional power and their nuclear arms are only a deterrence against India. Israel has submarine (larger then the original designed tube) tube launched Turbo Popeyes with nuclear warheads with enough range to engage traditional enemies.
I think that the MILDEN could be plausible as a successor program to the Agosta submarines.
 
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@Penguin DCNS recently unveiled the SMX 3.0 concept with a vertical launch system for 'missiles and drones.' Cruise missile VLS is evidently being studied by at least one Western naval vendor, could be something that may see wider spread application in the medium to long-term.

http://en.dcnsgroup.com/news/dcns-u...t-ship-tailored-to-the-needs-of-generation-z/

I believe some of the offerings to Australia made use of this, with one behind the coning tower. Perhaps this is also what would be used on the French boat.
http://www.northropgrumman.com/capabilities/uavcapsulelaunch/pages/default.aspx

see eg http://gentleseas.blogspot.nl/2015/12/virginia-subs-virginia-payload-module.html
" vertical multipurpose lock"
HDW216%2Bpart%2Bcutaway%2Bwith%2Blabels.jpg



http://gentleseas.blogspot.nl/2013_11_01_archive.html
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The SMX ocean submarine will be a transposition of the Barracuda SSN nuclear powered attack submarine into diesel-electric submarine (SSK).
1-236c2.jpg
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/smx-ocean-conventionally-powered-attack-submarine/

1541299_original.jpg



SMX.jpg


Scorpene, Ocean, Barracuda
Scorpene-SSK-SMX-Ocean-Barracuda-SSN.jpg


http://www.dmitryshulgin.com/2014/12/page/3/ scroll to bottom third of this page

See at 4 min. 00 sec
 
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You CAN actually see the lines of the escape pod in the coning tower / sail, but not the hatches of any SLBM silo's. According to art work, these should open to starboard.

S-30%2BType%2B032%2BQing-class%2BSSK-2.jpg


1326335481_21589.jpg


Chinese+Type+032+QING+Class+Diesel-Electric+Ballistic+Missile+Submarine+pla+navy+export+pakistan+ballistic+missile+cruise+missile+antiship++%25287%2529.jpg
 
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I think Pakistan should start working on it's own nuclear submarine, that can launch ballistic missiles.
 
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