Pakistan Navy Questions Thread

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

That is actually want I meant, after Brexit UK Gov are desperate to shout about any non EU deals. I think they also realised the Indians were stringing them along after all these year. After the US, Russians, French and Israelis get their slice of the Indian defence pie then very little left over. Once Typhoon lost out to Rafale and Indian Navy went for US/Russian/Israeli kit I think their is now more leeway to deal with Pakistan. Defence training between Pak and UK has always been very close (Cambrian, Sandhurst cadets, Instructor exchanges, joint exercises etc) but defence trade never quite followed this. Only major issue with UK kit is that much of it has US components. If UK can ensure all UK/Italian equipment on CAMM-ER and AW choppers then no reason at all we should not go in for these if we have money. Also this is kit either Turkey does not make or does not make to a high enough quality.

We've greased wheels for Italy and Spain. We just need to get London and Berlin to play ball, and if they do, then Europe opens up again.

At IDEAS 2018, the rep from Diehl BGT told me, straight up, the German gov't granted defence export licenses for Pakistan. Reps from TKMS, Siemens, etc told me the exact thing.

So, Germany is ready, though we still have a lot of work before we can get bank guarantees and loans (a FATF issue).

 

[Yasser76]

We've greased wheels for Italy and Spain. We just need to get London and Berlin to play ball, and if they do, then Europe opens up again.

At IDEAS 2018, the rep from Diehl BGT told me, straight up, the German gov't granted defence export licenses for Pakistan. Reps from TKMS, Siemens, etc told me the exact thing.

So, Germany is ready, though we still have a lot of work before we can get bank guarantees and loans (a FATF issue).

Unsure what we can get from Germany, Subs must be out if we go with Turkish MILDEM route. Maybe just the Sea Sultan upgrade?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Unsure what we can get from Germany, Subs must be out if we go with Turkish MILDEM route. Maybe just the Sea Sultan upgrade?

Lots of critical subsystems, e.g., SDRs for TDLs, MMI/HMIs, TRMs, etc.

Even if we go the MILDEN or TS1700 route for submarines, the preferred engines and AIPs would likely be MTU and Siemens, respectively. Even if we think about Project AZM, stuff like machining or other manufacturing inputs are pretty important...

 

[Yasser76]

Lots of critical subsystems, e.g., SDRs for TDLs, MMI/HMIs, TRMs, etc.

Even if we go the MILDEN or TS1700 route for submarines, the preferred engines and AIPs would likely be MTU and Siemens, respectively. Even if we think about Project AZM, stuff like machining or other manufacturing inputs are pretty important...

Good point. Must say I am a massive fan of German Tanks and Subs. Since WWII they have always produced world beating kit in this area.....

 

[Aryeih Leib]

Should PN wait for Gökbey?

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

Should PN wait for Gökbey?

No need, there are a lot of helicopters on the market

 

[Blacklight]

This would be more of a UK gov't announcement, e.g., Boris Johnson saying the areas building the AW-series will get jobs for the next 5-7 years.

On our end, I'd keep an eye on talks for financing and credit. IMHO, a helicopter deal would cross $1b in value, so it'd be the largest arms deal between the UK and Pakistan in a long time (if ever).

It would also be a huge experiment for the UK to gauge if Pakistan is a good arms market. Success in this area can lead to bigger programs down the line, e.g., fighter aircraft.

Licensed production isn't worth it. If we're importing, we should push for an offset deal where our private sector gets to source a % of the parts for all AW helicopters. However, to enter helicopter manufacturing properly, we need to engage in original design work (like Turkey).

IMHO ... a 7-8-ton platform that can function as a AW139-type transport helicopter and AH-1Z-type attack helicopter would work really well for our armed forces. But the Army needs to take the lead on this since they'd be the largest user.

AW149 - 8.3T to 8.6T depending on engine manufacturer.

Leonardo ramps up AW149 push for Puma replacement

Leonardo Helicopters has underscored the credentials of its 8.6t AW149 super-medium-twin as a replacement for the UK Royal Air Force's Puma HC2 transports, particularly against what it describes as rival "paper aircraft".

www.flightglobal.com

 

[SQ8]

The Aw-101 has been pitched and approached for many times all the way until ideas 2012.

I remember seeing a brochure for it as a kid in 1998 at a Navy Relative’s place.

 

[Blacklight]

As Pakistan's Sea Kings are getting old, What could be the options for Pakistan navy?
1) Chinese
2) American
3) Italian

Good thread Sir!

How about people start thinking along these lines first?

1) What you need to identify first is, what is the primary role of the Sea King in the PN.

2) Which manufacturers:
a) Will support you through a war with your neighbors ?
b) Will give you more than MRO?
c) Will give you cutting edge tech, and keep you relevant?
d) Will split payments over "X" number of years?

3) Capability:
a) Do you need an exact replacement, or will a slight change in specs enable you to buy a better platform, that will yield better results, since it will be also bought by Army / PAF? This would be a decision influenced by finances.
b) Is this a good opportunity to induct newer tech to enhance your primary role?
c) What would be the delivery schedule?
d) How hard would it be for existing crew, both air and ground to transition?
e) With new platforms come teething issues, how long can you wait for the new platform to achieve FOC?

 

[Blacklight]

Should PN wait for Gökbey?

Dont think they will.

 

[Thorough Pro]

To put an American option, you must have been living off-grid for quite a while

As Pakistan's Sea Kings are getting old, What could be the options for Pakistan navy?
1) Chinese
2) American
3) Italian

 

[Viking 63]

i Would steer clear anything American- Good option is Italian AWs PN need to look at them more seriously.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

The Aw-101 has been pitched and approached for many times all the way until ideas 2012.

I remember seeing a brochure for it as a kid in 1998 at a Navy Relative’s place.

Yep it was there at IDEAS '18 too. But the naval variant is wildly expensive though, $120 m per aircraft all-in. The AW159 can be had for $45-50 m per unit all-in. But the PN will hope that a naval AW149 comes in at $60-70 m all-in, which is their target ballpark for one standard naval heli (for ASW, AShW, AEW, SAR and troop carrying). To eat into the MH-60R market, Leonardo is aiming for that price point too.

 

[Blacklight]

Yep it was there at IDEAS '18 too. But the naval variant is wildly expensive though, $120 m per aircraft all-in. The AW159 can be had for $45-50 m per unit all-in. But the PN will hope that a naval AW149 comes in at $60-70 m all-in, which is their target ballpark for one standard naval heli (for ASW, AShW, AEW, SAR and troop carrying). To eat into the MH-60R market, Leonardo is aiming for that price point too.

The 8.6-tonne AW149 is marketed as an alternative to the Sikorsky S70/UH-60 Black Hawk and the Airbus Helicopters Puma/Super Puma family.

A version of the AW149, designated TUHP149, was submitted as a candidate for the $4 billion, 109-aircraft Turkish Utility Helicopter Program (TUHP) for the Turkish Armed Forces, and the type was offered to meet the Polish Armed Forces’ multirole helicopter requirement.

AW149 Proves Worth After Early Setbacks | AIN

If the UK chooses the AW149 production could be transferred from Milan to Yeovil.

www.ainonline.com

According to the Italian Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Cooperation, Leonardo has sold 24 AW149 and eight AW189 helicopters to the Egyptian military for approximately EUR871 million (USD957 million). The sales were recorded in the ministry’s 2019 arms exports report to the Italian Senate of the Republic.

Italy reveals Leonardo helo sales to Egypt

The Italian government has revealed a hitherto-unconfirmed Leonardo military helicopter sale to Egypt, according to documents disclosed in late May. Seen in Italian military markings, the Italian government has confirmed that the AW149 has now been sold to Egypt. According to the Italian Ministry

www.janes.com

France’s La Tribune reported in April 2019 that Egypt had chosen the AW149 over the NH90 to meet a shipboard helicopter requirement.

Egypt orders AW149 and AW189 helicopters - defenceWeb

Egypt has ordered 24 AW149 combat helicopters and eight AW189 civil models from Italy’s Leonardo Helicopters under an 871 million euro contract signed last year. This is according to the Italian foreign ministry’s report to the Senate on 2019 arms exports, published in May. This put Egypt into...

www.defenceweb.co.za

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

The 8.6-tonne AW149 is marketed as an alternative to the Sikorsky S70/UH-60 Black Hawk and the Airbus Helicopters Puma/Super Puma family.

A version of the AW149, designated TUHP149, was submitted as a candidate for the $4 billion, 109-aircraft Turkish Utility Helicopter Program (TUHP) for the Turkish Armed Forces, and the type was offered to meet the Polish Armed Forces’ multirole helicopter requirement.

AW149 Proves Worth After Early Setbacks | AIN

If the UK chooses the AW149 production could be transferred from Milan to Yeovil.

www.ainonline.com

According to the Italian Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Cooperation, Leonardo has sold 24 AW149 and eight AW189 helicopters to the Egyptian military for approximately EUR871 million (USD957 million). The sales were recorded in the ministry’s 2019 arms exports report to the Italian Senate of the Republic.

Italy reveals Leonardo helo sales to Egypt

The Italian government has revealed a hitherto-unconfirmed Leonardo military helicopter sale to Egypt, according to documents disclosed in late May. Seen in Italian military markings, the Italian government has confirmed that the AW149 has now been sold to Egypt. According to the Italian Ministry

www.janes.com

France’s La Tribune reported in April 2019 that Egypt had chosen the AW149 over the NH90 to meet a shipboard helicopter requirement.

Egypt orders AW149 and AW189 helicopters - defenceWeb

Egypt has ordered 24 AW149 combat helicopters and eight AW189 civil models from Italy’s Leonardo Helicopters under an 871 million euro contract signed last year. This is according to the Italian foreign ministry’s report to the Senate on 2019 arms exports, published in May. This put Egypt into...

www.defenceweb.co.za

Yep but remember, a full-out ASW helicopter will have dedicated sensors and other subsystems that will add to the cost. It's the reason why there's a $30-40 m gap between the naval AW101 and regular AW101.

For the PN, the optimal approach would be one platform -- e.g., AW149 -- but in different configurations, e.g., 12 ASW + AShW types ($600 m) for the MILGEM and Jinnah-class, and 8 utility types (for SAR, troop carrying, etc) for $250-300 m. Maybe even try 4-6 configured for air assault (e.g., ATGM integration) for the Marines.