Pakistan Navy Questions Thread

[Blacklight]

Yep but remember, a full-out ASW helicopter will have dedicated sensors and other subsystems that will add to the cost. It's the reason why there's a $30-40 m gap between the naval AW101 and regular AW101.

For the PN, the optimal approach would be one platform -- e.g., AW149 -- but in different configurations, e.g., 12 ASW + AShW types ($600 m) for the MILGEM and Jinnah-class, and 8 utility types (for SAR, troop carrying, etc) for $250-300 m. Maybe even try 4-6 configured for air assault (e.g., ATGM integration) for the Marines.

I personally hope we get the naval version of the AW101, but I have personally been hearing about it for the last 3yrs, @SQ8 since he was a kid, and @ali_raza since Bhutto informed him

The thing with the AW149 is that it has a lot in common with the AW139, we can also look at the AW169, and the trio would solve a lot of issues.

 

[ali_raza]

I personally hope we get the naval version of the AW101, but I have personally been hearing about it for the last 3yrs, @SQ8 since he was a kid, and @ali_raza since Bhutto informed him

The thing with the AW149 is that it has a lot in common with the AW139, we can also look at the AW169, and the trio would solve a lot of issues.

lol true

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I personally hope we get the naval version of the AW101, but I have personally been hearing about it for the last 3yrs, @SQ8 since he was a kid, and @ali_raza since Bhutto informed him

The thing with the AW149 is that it has a lot in common with the AW139, we can also look at the AW169, and the trio would solve a lot of issues.

IMO ... I'd rather the PN order 24 AW149s of multiple types rather than piecemeal numbers of entirely different helicopter models, especially high-cost models. I think the PN could settle its entire helicopter program for $1.2 b; amortize it over 10 years at $100 m per year, and be done with it.

I understand inter-services commonality is unrealistic, but standardization within a service should be tenable.

That said, Leonardo thinks AW149 is a good successor for the Puma-series. It cost Egypt around $30 m all-in per helicopter, which is pretty competitive. So, there might be a case for the Army down the line.

 

[Blacklight]

That said, Leonardo thinks AW149 is a good successor for the Puma-series. It cost Egypt around $30 m all-in per helicopter, which is pretty competitive. So, there might be a case for the Army down the line.

Maybe @Tipu7 could shed some light on this?

 

[mingle]

Lots of critical subsystems, e.g., SDRs for TDLs, MMI/HMIs, TRMs, etc.

Even if we go the MILDEN or TS1700 route for submarines, the preferred engines and AIPs would likely be MTU and Siemens, respectively. Even if we think about Project AZM, stuff like machining or other manufacturing inputs are pretty important...

Even EU or British banks good for loan like eygpt got I would love 24-36 EF and if PAF grab old ones would be cheery on top no need more F16s except current fleet upgardes even negate need for J10CE. A combination of F16s JF-17 with EF good to go

 

[SQ8]

Whats the range difference between 149 and 101? Almost equal - the Sea kings almost formed a shore based component since the only ship capable of hosting them were the fleet oilers.

 

[Falconless]

Are typhoons a viable replacement for maritime mirages?

 

[Tipu7]

Maybe @Tipu7 could shed some light on this?

AW-149 as Puma replacement in Army? Any day...
The need is to standardize the helicopter fleet, both within army as well as in tri services. AW-139, 149, 189 combo can be the right answer in medium lift helicopter cetagory.

 

[mingle]

Are typhoons a viable replacement for maritime mirages?

Sure even can be used omni role

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Whats the range difference between 149 and 101? Almost equal - the Sea kings almost formed a shore based component since the only ship capable of hosting them were the fleet oilers.

Yep, and that's the other consideration. With the AW101, we're basically limiting the number of ships that can support those helicopters. The AW149 affords much more flexibility. In terms of cost, the AW149 uses a much more common engine (GE CT7).

If not for issues with the U.S., the PN would've gone for the UH-60. In fact, it had even asked for 6 of those with the OHPs. I think the PN was interested in standardizing ASW, AShW, SAR, and Marine Ops to one 8-9-ton helicopter.

 

[Tipu7]

Yep but remember, a full-out ASW helicopter will have dedicated sensors and other subsystems that will add to the cost. It's the reason why there's a $30-40 m gap between the naval AW101 and regular AW101.

For the PN, the optimal approach would be one platform -- e.g., AW149 -- but in different configurations, e.g., 12 ASW + AShW types ($600 m) for the MILGEM and Jinnah-class, and 8 utility types (for SAR, troop carrying, etc) for $250-300 m. Maybe even try 4-6 configured for air assault (e.g., ATGM integration) for the Marines.

The problem is, there is no dedicated ASW/ASuW version of AW-149. If PN will ask for it, it's gonna cost a lot both on pocket and watch.

If this problem is rectified, then AW-149 is the right solution.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

The problem is, there is no dedicated ASW/ASuW version of AW-149. If PN will ask for it, it's gonna cost a lot both on pocket and watch.

If this problem is rectified, then AW-149 is the right solution.

I think Leonardo might eat the cost of developing an ASW/AShW variant. It's something Leonardo can re-market to other customers, especially those who want a more analogous alternative to the MH-60R. A true naval AW149 is basically the missing piece to that family (otherwise, they have the standard utility AW149, the air assault AW149, and the AW249 attack heli).

The RAS-72 was borne out of this arrangement (with RAS and Aerodata).

 

[Falconless]

Aren’t provinces like Punjab also planning on launching air ambulances? And the army needs to replace her Pumas and other older choppers. Would it be viable for Pakistan to make one unified order with ToT so that future birds can be built in Pakistan on an as needed basis?

 

[Rashid Mahmood]

The best option would be the AW101 as was proposed by NHQ.

However, keeping in view the funds situation, a modified AW 149, but it is only in operational use by 2 operators.

Z-20F can be a choice, but it is a new platform and would need detailed and careful operational testing.

 

[Tipu7]

The best option would be the AW101 as was proposed by NHQ.

However, keeping in view the funds situation, a modified AW 149, but it is only in operational use by 2 operators.

Z-20F can be a choice, but it is a new platform and would need detailed and careful operational testing.

Are there any roles within Navy which only a helicopter of size of AW-101 can execute? If AW-149 is procured, will it leave any blank areas within operational structure needing to be covered?

I think Leonardo might eat the cost of developing an ASW/AShW variant. It's something Leonardo can re-market to other customers, especially those who want a more analogous alternative to the MH-60R. A true naval AW149 is basically the missing piece to that family (otherwise, they have the standard utility AW149, the air assault AW149, and the AW249 attack heli).

The RAS-72 was borne out of this arrangement (with RAS and Aerodata).

Their is another point. AW developed the light AW-169 and Heavy AW-101 in ASW configuration to meet maritime demands of European Navies. AW-101 ASW has range, payload advantage and therefore can carry more sensors to greater ranges. AW-169 ASW due to its smaller size fits on smaller ships and is sufficient for their operational envelope. On bigger vessels, two AW-169 can be housed simultaneously and it offers a unique quantitative advantage of its own.

AW-149 ASW simply do not fit anywhere. If developed, it will be pure export oriented.