Pakistan Navy | News & Discussions.

[fatman17]

Upgrading the Classic FFG for Modern Combat

Mar. 27, 2014 - 03:45AM | By CHRISTOPHER P. CAVAS

The Gelibolu is one of eight former US Navy frigates operated by the Turkish Navy. (Christopher P. Cavas / Staff)

DOHA, QATAR — The Oliver Hazard Perry guided missile frigates are one of the most numerous warships classes built since World War II. The first ships entered service in the 1980s, but many still serve under the flags of other nations, all of whom are intensely interested in keeping these vintage ships as effective as possible.

With the last of the ships scheduled to leave US service by the fall of 2015, even more Perrys — commonly known as FFGs, or “figs” — will become available for foreign transfer and hence, in need of upgrades.
At the forefront of the FFG modernization effort is Havelsan. The Turkish electronics and systems development firm is upgrading all eight of Turkey’s ex-US Navy FFGs, and is seeking to sell its combat system expertise to other countries operating similar ships.

Havelsan has a tentative agreement to upgrade Bahrain’s single FFG, said Serdar Müldür, the company’s vice president for command, control and combat systems, and is awaiting funding.

Havelsan, Müldür said, also has surveyed the Pakistani Alamgir, the country’s lone FFG, and the company has a contingency agreement with Pakistan to upgrade the ships should more frigates be transferred.

The company also has held talks with FFG operators Poland and Thailand, Müldür said March 27 at the Doha International Maritime Defence Exhibition (DIMDEX) in Qatar.

Havelsan’s FFG upgrade program is marketed as the Genesis Combat Management System. The upgrades include not only sensors but also weapons, all integrated into a central command system.

“We integrate not only existing sensors, but also replace old systems, such as the SPS-49 air search radars that come with the former US ships,” Müldür said. The Thales Smart-S three-dimensional radar is replacing old SPS-49s on Turkish ships.

All eight of Turkey’s frigates were upgraded by 2012 with the Genesis systems, but replacement of the air search radars has not been completed.

Genesis can handle more upgrades, including installation of the Phalanx Block 1 close-in weapon system;

integration of Rolling Airframe Missiles (RAM) or SeaRAM systems; the Swarmbuster initiative, which provides close-in weapon system or Genesis targeting information to the ship’s 76mm guns; sonar upgrades; and addition of an automatic torpedo launch capability.

Other systems that can be installed or integrated with the Genesis system, Müldür said, include Evolved Sea Sparrow Missiles, 40mm guns and new 76mm guns.

'A Better Ship'
Standing in the combat information center (CIC) of the Turkish frigate Gelibolu, the former USS Reid, Lt. J.G. Ihsan Asiler proudly showed off the Genesis upgrades to visitors aboard the ship March 27 at DIMDEX. For comparison, a large picture of the ship’s pre-Genesis CIC was up on the space’s largest display screen.
“All these consoles are new,” Asiler said, sweeping his hand around the room. “All new displays, with multichannel work stations replacing the old dedicated consoles.”

Gone are the old mono-chromatic display screens, replaced with high-resolution digital displays. The ship’s old UYK-7 computers, able to track up to 64 targets, have been replaced with modern, commercial off-the-shelf processors able to track thousands of targets.

“Genesis is a very user-friendly system,” said Asiler, electronic warfare officer of the Gelibolu. The system easily integrates weapons, sensors and electronic warfare systems, he said.

Lt. Cmdr. Mehmet Sumer, the ship’s principal warfare officer, agreed.

“Building a common operating picture with the old system could be confusing,” Sumer said. “That’s not true now.

“Because of Genesis, this is a much better ship.” ■
Email: ccavas@defensenews.com.

 

[Penguin]

So Germans have lost it again. Better for them to convince KSA, UAE, Oman, Yemen. To have them on JV for Submarines....

What have the Germans lost in your opinion?

 

[Nishan_101]

What have the Germans lost in your opinion?

They were keen for the contract for U216....

 

[Penguin]

They were keen for the contract for U216....

Australia hasn't opened a competition yet, it is merely planning to expand its sub services.
Germany is still much in the race with 216 derived 218SG also offered to singapore
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304071004579408282844676104

Japan has been building its own subs for years but cannot export by law....

 

[Quwa]

For most countries, money is tight. Governments are generally reluctant to engage in multi-billion dollar acquisitions while their people are facing tenuous or uncertain employment prospects, inflation, a cut back in social services, etc. However, give it 2-3 years, I'm sure TKMS will find itself with a number of major orders.

I'll also add a little bit about Pakistan too. Don't expect it to order U-214s or any major Western system while engaged in Waziristan. Our internal conflict has been a huge drain on resources, and unless it is resolved, the military will not be in a position to order anything major.

 

[Nishan_101]

Australia hasn't opened a competition yet, it is merely planning to expand its sub services.
Germany is still much in the race with 216 derived 218SG also offered to singapore
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304071004579408282844676104

Japan has been building its own subs for years but cannot export by law....

@Penguin @TOPGUN I would really love to see that if KSA, UAE, Oman, Yemen, Algeria and may be Libya would be able to join in with Germans on Submarine development of different classes that will teach them from scratch. Also Navies in future looking to totally dependent on submarines rather than Ships.

 

[Penguin]

@Penguin @TOPGUN I would really love to see that if KSA, UAE, Oman, Yemen, Algeria and may be Libya would be able to join in with Germans on Submarine development of different classes that will teach them from scratch. Also Navies in future looking to totally dependent on submarines rather than Ships.

Not going to happen. KSA -only party with sufficient funds - ship acquisition: no technogoly transfer and no local building.

 

[Nishan_101]

Not going to happen. KSA -only party with sufficient funds - ship acquisition: no technogoly transfer and no local building.

wait and see...

 

[TOPGUN]

wait and see...

I also agree with Penguin ...

 

[niaz]

@Penguin @TOPGUN I would really love to see that if KSA, UAE, Oman, Yemen, Algeria and may be Libya would be able to join in with Germans on Submarine development of different classes that will teach them from scratch. Also Navies in future looking to totally dependent on submarines rather than Ships.

Do people have any idea about what is involved a complex project such as a naval warship? We “ASSEMBLED” a French submarine and a Chinese frigate and we think that we can build a warship ab initio!

Pakistan has hardly any history of shipbuilding let alone warship building. Indian shipyards has been designing and building ships for a very long time; still Indian Navy turns to Russia and the West for submarines & sophisticated warships.

A naval ship has

1. Platform. This means essentially the hull and size of the vessel.

2. Propulsion Systems (Combined diesel and gas(CODAG) orCombined diesel or gas (CODOG

3. Command & Control and Combat systems.

For the sake of argument let us assume Pakistan wants to design a grass roots Corvette or small frigate of about 2,500 DWT. One would need to build a vessel about 85 to 100 meters long, between 12 to 16 meters wide. The design has to be flexible which allows ship to remain afloat at high speeds and adverse weather. Flight deck should be able to support a medium size helicopter and weight of guns & weapon systems.

Additionally, accommodation facilities for about 70 officers & men are needed. Since the vessel should be able to remain at sea for 3 to 4 weeks, space for fuel, food and ammunition is required. We would need a robust engine with enough power to propel the ship up to speed of about 25 knots (about 30 miles per hour but also small enough to be fitted in to the ship.

Corvette must be equipped to defend against both surface and air threats, For this you would need command & control system which supports tactical picture compilation, decision-making and weapon control to meet multiple emergent threats in blue water and littoral operations. This means designing a C&C system providing situational awareness and weapon control which monitors all directions at once and automatically alerts the crew when potential threats are detected.

All of the above is useless unless the vessel has good Radar, EW and anti-Radar counter measures; guns & missiles, anti-missile defence; anti-submarine systems, electronic warfare systems. GPS anti jamming protection and passive radar identification system.

Pray tell me, how many of products mentioned above of indigenous design do we make or manufacture under licence?

Best we can do is to design the corvette hull and the buy the engine and all of other items from foreign sources. Before anyone else will buy a warship from Pakistan, we must be in a position to provide spare parts and technical support. If most of the systems are foreign, how can we do that?

Unless all the components parts are supplied from France, we cannot manufacture another Augusta submarine. Similarly we depend upon China for the components before we assemble another F-22 Frigate.

Under these circumstances why would money rich Arab Gulf nations buy a newly designed warship from Pakistan when they can buy the same from the nations that manufacture all of components and have proven designs already in service with other navies?

There is a long way to go before we start building our own naval vessels, let alone selling them to other countries.

 

[Indus Falcon]

Do people have any idea about what is involved a complex project such as a naval warship? We “ASSEMBLED” a French submarine and a Chinese frigate and we think that we can build a warship ab initio!

Pakistan has hardly any history of shipbuilding let alone warship building. Indian shipyards has been designing and building ships for a very long time; still Indian Navy turns to Russia and the West for submarines & sophisticated warships.

A naval ship has

1. Platform. This means essentially the hull and size of the vessel.

2. Propulsion Systems (Combined diesel and gas(CODAG) orCombined diesel or gas (CODOG

3. Command & Control and Combat systems.

For the sake of argument let us assume Pakistan wants to design a grass roots Corvette or small frigate of about 2,500 DWT. One would need to build a vessel about 85 to 100 meters long, between 12 to 16 meters wide. The design has to be flexible which allows ship to remain afloat at high speeds and adverse weather. Flight deck should be able to support a medium size helicopter and weight of guns & weapon systems.

Additionally, accommodation facilities for about 70 officers & men are needed. Since the vessel should be able to remain at sea for 3 to 4 weeks, space for fuel, food and ammunition is required. We would need a robust engine with enough power to propel the ship up to speed of about 25 knots (about 30 miles per hour but also small enough to be fitted in to the ship.

Corvette must be equipped to defend against both surface and air threats, For this you would need command & control system which supports tactical picture compilation, decision-making and weapon control to meet multiple emergent threats in blue water and littoral operations. This means designing a C&C system providing situational awareness and weapon control which monitors all directions at once and automatically alerts the crew when potential threats are detected.

All of the above is useless unless the vessel has good Radar, EW and anti-Radar counter measures; guns & missiles, anti-missile defence; anti-submarine systems, electronic warfare systems. GPS anti jamming protection and passive radar identification system.

Pray tell me, how many of products mentioned above of indigenous design do we make or manufacture under licence?

Best we can do is to design the corvette hull and the buy the engine and all of other items from foreign sources. Before anyone else will buy a warship from Pakistan, we must be in a position to provide spare parts and technical support. If most of the systems are foreign, how can we do that?

Under these circumstances why would money rich Arab Gulf nations buy from Pakistan when they can buy the same from the nations that manufacture all of the above.

Unless all the components parts are supplied from France, we cannot manufacture another Augusta submarine. Similarly we depend upon China for the components before we assemble another F-22 Frigate.

There is a long way to go before we start building our own naval vessels, let alone selling them to other countries.

Just when I was beginning to think common sense was extinct on this forum! Thank You good job!!

 

[Nishan_101]

Do people have any idea about what is involved a complex project such as a naval warship? We “ASSEMBLED” a French submarine and a Chinese frigate and we think that we can build a warship ab initio!

Pakistan has hardly any history of shipbuilding let alone warship building. Indian shipyards has been designing and building ships for a very long time; still Indian Navy turns to Russia and the West for submarines & sophisticated warships.

A naval ship has

1. Platform. This means essentially the hull and size of the vessel.

2. Propulsion Systems (Combined diesel and gas(CODAG) orCombined diesel or gas (CODOG

3. Command & Control and Combat systems.

For the sake of argument let us assume Pakistan wants to design a grass roots Corvette or small frigate of about 2,500 DWT. One would need to build a vessel about 85 to 100 meters long, between 12 to 16 meters wide. The design has to be flexible which allows ship to remain afloat at high speeds and adverse weather. Flight deck should be able to support a medium size helicopter and weight of guns & weapon systems.

Additionally, accommodation facilities for about 70 officers & men are needed. Since the vessel should be able to remain at sea for 3 to 4 weeks, space for fuel, food and ammunition is required. We would need a robust engine with enough power to propel the ship up to speed of about 25 knots (about 30 miles per hour but also small enough to be fitted in to the ship.

Corvette must be equipped to defend against both surface and air threats, For this you would need command & control system which supports tactical picture compilation, decision-making and weapon control to meet multiple emergent threats in blue water and littoral operations. This means designing a C&C system providing situational awareness and weapon control which monitors all directions at once and automatically alerts the crew when potential threats are detected.

All of the above is useless unless the vessel has good Radar, EW and anti-Radar counter measures; guns & missiles, anti-missile defence; anti-submarine systems, electronic warfare systems. GPS anti jamming protection and passive radar identification system.

Pray tell me, how many of products mentioned above of indigenous design do we make or manufacture under licence?

Best we can do is to design the corvette hull and the buy the engine and all of other items from foreign sources. Before anyone else will buy a warship from Pakistan, we must be in a position to provide spare parts and technical support. If most of the systems are foreign, how can we do that?

Unless all the components parts are supplied from France, we cannot manufacture another Augusta submarine. Similarly we depend upon China for the components before we assemble another F-22 Frigate.

Under these circumstances why would money rich Arab Gulf nations buy a newly designed warship from Pakistan when they can buy the same from the nations that manufacture all of components and have proven designs already in service with other navies?

There is a long way to go before we start building our own naval vessels, let alone selling them to other countries.

I am saying JV with Germany or France....

I also agree with Penguin ...

I think KSA & UAE has will and they can convince Oman and Yemen even through money as well. I am sure if they try then they can have JV program with Germans.

 

[S.Y.A]

Do people have any idea about what is involved a complex project such as a naval warship? We “ASSEMBLED” a French submarine and a Chinese frigate and we think that we can build a warship ab initio!

Pakistan has hardly any history of shipbuilding let alone warship building. Indian shipyards has been designing and building ships for a very long time; still Indian Navy turns to Russia and the West for submarines & sophisticated warships.

A naval ship has

1. Platform. This means essentially the hull and size of the vessel.

2. Propulsion Systems (Combined diesel and gas(CODAG) orCombined diesel or gas (CODOG

3. Command & Control and Combat systems.

For the sake of argument let us assume Pakistan wants to design a grass roots Corvette or small frigate of about 2,500 DWT. One would need to build a vessel about 85 to 100 meters long, between 12 to 16 meters wide. The design has to be flexible which allows ship to remain afloat at high speeds and adverse weather. Flight deck should be able to support a medium size helicopter and weight of guns & weapon systems.

Additionally, accommodation facilities for about 70 officers & men are needed. Since the vessel should be able to remain at sea for 3 to 4 weeks, space for fuel, food and ammunition is required. We would need a robust engine with enough power to propel the ship up to speed of about 25 knots (about 30 miles per hour but also small enough to be fitted in to the ship.

Corvette must be equipped to defend against both surface and air threats, For this you would need command & control system which supports tactical picture compilation, decision-making and weapon control to meet multiple emergent threats in blue water and littoral operations. This means designing a C&C system providing situational awareness and weapon control which monitors all directions at once and automatically alerts the crew when potential threats are detected.

All of the above is useless unless the vessel has good Radar, EW and anti-Radar counter measures; guns & missiles, anti-missile defence; anti-submarine systems, electronic warfare systems. GPS anti jamming protection and passive radar identification system.

Pray tell me, how many of products mentioned above of indigenous design do we make or manufacture under licence?

Best we can do is to design the corvette hull and the buy the engine and all of other items from foreign sources. Before anyone else will buy a warship from Pakistan, we must be in a position to provide spare parts and technical support. If most of the systems are foreign, how can we do that?

Unless all the components parts are supplied from France, we cannot manufacture another Augusta submarine. Similarly we depend upon China for the components before we assemble another F-22 Frigate.

Under these circumstances why would money rich Arab Gulf nations buy a newly designed warship from Pakistan when they can buy the same from the nations that manufacture all of components and have proven designs already in service with other navies?

There is a long way to go before we start building our own naval vessels, let alone selling them to other countries.

if we start crying how hard it is, we will never be able to build one.

 

[fatman17]

if we start crying how hard it is, we will never be able to build one.

PK needs an industrial base to get into such ventures. govt. sponsored projects are limited in their expertise and capacity. the real strength will come from private companies and ventures. PK for the moment dosnt have any.

 

[S.Y.A]

PK needs an industrial base to get into such ventures. govt. sponsored projects are limited in their expertise and capacity. the real strength will come from private companies and ventures. PK for the moment dosnt have any.

that is again because we are crying that we cant do it...and everyone is looking to make easy money, so no private ventures in this area