PAKISTAN NAVY Invites Bids for Fixed Wing and VTOL UAV

[XYON]

'India, Israel developing unmanned helicopter'
The unmanned helicopter meant primarily for use by the navy will carry payloads such as day-and-night-imaging systems and various radar systems.
'India, Israel developing unmanned helicopter'


Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) and Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) will convert the HAL-built Chetak Helicopter into an Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV),
domain-b.com : AeroIndia 2009: HAL, IAI to convert Chetak chopper into UAV

as the Chetak was already flying, he did not foresee any difficulties in converting it into a rotary-wing UAV, as all it required was integration of the command and control systems. HAL's Chetak is a version of the French Alouette helicopter.
http://www.satnews.com/cgi-bin/story.cgi?number=1312146799


This might explain the lack of interest in purchasing...

Agreed! That is why PN should look at developing similar UAV's from old Alouettes that they have been using for ship-borne flying many years in the Arabian Sea environment. The platform is tested and matured in the ambient environment and with a little help from the local technology base, they should be able to develop a reliable VTOL UAV out of the same platform!

 

[Arsalan]

Agreed! That is why PN should look at developing similar UAV's from old Alouettes that they have been using for ship-borne flying many years in the Arabian Sea environment. The platform is tested and matured in the ambient environment and with a little help from the local technology base, they should be able to develop a reliable VTOL UAV out of the same platform!

but if the VTOL UAV still covers as mush space as a helicopter, consumes same fuel, have same weight then why bother so much just to remove a pilot.
i mean, the main advantage of UAV on a naval ship is that they woul be lighter in weight and can be carried on ship that even have small or no hanger space. will be fuel efficient so can stay at post for longer periods, will be more stealthier then a full fledge chopper.

what do you think?

regards!

 

[XYON]

but if the VTOL UAV still covers as mush space as a helicopter, consumes same fuel, have same weight then why bother so much just to remove a pilot.
i mean, the main advantage of UAV on a naval ship is that they woul be lighter in weight and can be carried on ship that even have small or no hanger space. will be fuel efficient so can stay at post for longer periods, will be more stealthier then a full fledge chopper.

what do you think?

regards!

Higher Endurance! UAV as the size of an Alouette can still be easily tucked into Frigates, have more reliability and longer range and higher endurance compared to smaller platforms. Plus the same can be used from higher altitudes then small platforms keeping themselves stealthy in the process. Also, the same platforms could also be optionally manned if and so required which cannot be done from smaller platforms.

Also larger platforms can carry more useful payload and can be easily weaponized to covert the UAV into UCAV then compared to small platforms.

That is why US Navy is developing the Fire Scout which is essentially a full fledged helicopter converted into a UAV!

 

[Penguin]

but if the VTOL UAV still covers as mush space as a helicopter, consumes same fuel, have same weight then why bother so much just to remove a pilot.
i mean, the main advantage of UAV on a naval ship is that they woul be lighter in weight and can be carried on ship that even have small or no hanger space. will be fuel efficient so can stay at post for longer periods, will be more stealthier then a full fledge chopper.

what do you think?

regards!

- weighs less (no crew) > consumes less fuel > greater endurance
if fuel takes place of crew > greater endurance
if equipment take place of crew > same endurance
- no crew > less risk when put in harms way
- no crew in the air, just on ship > rotate > longer time ''on station" possible (rotate remote pilot, keep drone in air)

 

[Penguin]

On 2 August 2010 an MQ-8 became unresponsive to commands during testing and entered restricted airspace around Washington, DC.

Northrop Grumman MQ-8 Fire Scout - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Still some bugs to work out

Specifications (Sikosy Schweizer 333)
Data from International Directory of Civil Aircraft[3] and Technical specifications[9]

General characteristics

Crew: 1-2 pilots
Capacity: 1-3 passengers
Payload: 1250 lb (kg)
Length: (overall) 31 ft 2 in (9.5 m)
Rotor diameter: 27 ft 6 in (8.38 m)
Height: 11 ft 0 in (3.35 m)
Empty weight: 1210 lb (549 kg)
Loaded weight: lb (kg)
Max takeoff weight: 2550 lb (1156 kg)
Powerplant: 1× Rolls-Royce 250-C20W turboshaft, 235 shp (175 kW); full rating: 420 shp (315 kW)
Performance

Cruise speed: 105 kt (194 km/h)
Range: 319 nm (590 km)
Rate of climb: 1380 ft/min (7.01 m/s)

Specifications (MQ-8B)
Data from Northrop Grumman[14], Nav Air[15]

General characteristics

Crew: 0
Payload: 600 lbs (272 kg)
Length: 23.95 ft (7.3 m)
Rotor diameter: 27.5 ft (8.4 m)
Height: 9.71 ft (2.9 m)
Empty weight: 2,073 lbs (940.3 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 3,150 lbs (1,430 kg)
Powerplant: 1× Rolls-Royce 250, 313 kw ()
Performance

Maximum speed: 115+ knots
Cruise speed: 110 knots
Combat radius: 110 nmi (203.7 km) plus 5+ hours on station
Endurance: 8 hours
Service ceiling: 20,000 ft (6,100 m)

 

[XYON]

Northrop Grumman MQ-8 Fire Scout - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Still some bugs to work out

Specifications (Sikosy Schweizer 333)
Data from International Directory of Civil Aircraft[3] and Technical specifications[9]

General characteristics

Crew: 1-2 pilots
Capacity: 1-3 passengers
Payload: 1250 lb (kg)
Length: (overall) 31 ft 2 in (9.5 m)
Rotor diameter: 27 ft 6 in (8.38 m)
Height: 11 ft 0 in (3.35 m)
Empty weight: 1210 lb (549 kg)
Loaded weight: lb (kg)
Max takeoff weight: 2550 lb (1156 kg)
Powerplant: 1× Rolls-Royce 250-C20W turboshaft, 235 shp (175 kW); full rating: 420 shp (315 kW)
Performance

Cruise speed: 105 kt (194 km/h)
Range: 319 nm (590 km)
Rate of climb: 1380 ft/min (7.01 m/s)

Specifications (MQ-8B)
Data from Northrop Grumman[14], Nav Air[15]

General characteristics

Crew: 0
Payload: 600 lbs (272 kg)
Length: 23.95 ft (7.3 m)
Rotor diameter: 27.5 ft (8.4 m)
Height: 9.71 ft (2.9 m)
Empty weight: 2,073 lbs (940.3 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 3,150 lbs (1,430 kg)
Powerplant: 1× Rolls-Royce 250, 313 kw ()
Performance

Maximum speed: 115+ knots
Cruise speed: 110 knots
Combat radius: 110 nmi (203.7 km) plus 5+ hours on station
Endurance: 8 hours
Service ceiling: 20,000 ft (6,100 m)

When the PN tested the two VTOL's in 2008, the Cybaero APID VTOL UAV crashed 15 minutes into flight and the Camcopter S-100 VTOL UAV (according to someone who was closely involved in these trials) had developed some critical component failure during flying. The manufacturer took a risk and kept the bird flying in order to not to cause any embarrassment in front of many invitees!

This is the reason why PN should not waste money on such experimental platforms unless they are matured through extensive in-service use by other Navies!!

 

[fatman17]

Camcopter S-100 VTOL UAV

the german navy has inducted this UAV!

 

[XYON]

Camcopter S-100 VTOL UAV

the german navy has inducted this UAV!

No It has not! They have only tested it so far from their K130 Corvettes!

 

[Penguin]

The Gyrodyne model QH-50D is a remotely controlled unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) in which over 377 were built and delivered to the U.S. Navy as the Drone Anti-Submarine Helicopter (DASH) for the DASH weapon system under contracts received in June 1966 Final deliveries occurred in October 1969

The QH-50 remains the world’s ONLY originally designed aircraft specifically built to operate as a heavy payload (over 1000 lbs) VTOL-UAV from small ship decks, like the over 240 U.S. Navy destroyers it operated from for 10 years, until budget cuts associated with the Vietnam War effort forced the cessation of DASH in favor of the Army’s costs of maintaining a 1 million man presence in Vietnam.

Today, after almost 37 years since fleet introduction, the QH-50C/D continues to fly at White Sands, New Mexico, under U.S. Army's Executive Office, Simulation, Training and Instrumentation (PEO STRI) control, illustrating the fact that if maintained correctly, the aircraft can fly indefinitely.

QH-50 Evolution

Makes you wonder why it is so hard to make a rotary wing U(C)AV today ....

 

[XYON]

QH-50 Evolution

Makes you wonder why it is so hard to make a rotary wing U(C)AV today ....

EXACTLY!

The equation is pretty simple here!

Rotary VTOL UAV Platform = More Components = Higher Rates of cascade failure = higher attrition/ crash rates = higher maintenance = $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ = Happy Seller = Sad Buyer!!

 

[Penguin]

EXACTLY!

The equation is pretty simple here!

Rotary VTOL UAV Platform = More Components = Higher Rates of cascade failure = higher attrition/ crash rates = higher maintenance = $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ = Happy Seller = Sad Buyer!!

So how come they managed it already in the 1960s?

 

[XYON]

So how come they managed it already in the 1960s?

USAF has been experimenting with a lot of advanced platforms in aerospace since the 60's and the 70's!! But only a few of these experimental platforms ever made it into functional in-service platforms. The pic of the VTOL UCAV you have posted is one of the experimental platform which proverbially never got off the ground!

 

[XYON]

Amazingly,

Pakistan Army has inducted LUNA and has developed a UAV Complex near Mangla Cantonment to support its UAV operations.

Pakistan Air Force has inducted FALCO and they have a full 'Project Vision' inside the AHQ handling UAV ops with Falco's assembly plant at PAC Kamra & locally made Satuma UAV operating units.

Pakistan Navy has no dedicated UAV unit (or even personnel) within NHQ who know anything about UAV's or their operations. It has a small unit in Karachi at Karsaz responsible for keeping and operating target drones (purchased from UK) which recently has also been tasked to fly the UQAB UAV purchased last year from GIDS. Navy also needs some time to build its internal capacity & resources to operate relatively complex ship-borne UAV systems.

 

[Penguin]

USAF has been experimenting with a lot of advanced platforms in aerospace since the 60's and the 70's!! But only a few of these experimental platforms ever made it into functional in-service platforms. The pic of the VTOL UCAV you have posted is one of the experimental platform which proverbially never got off the ground!

No, it isn't. Number built: 755

1959, first flight. Introduction into service 1963. The DASH program was canceled in 1969. Although low reliability was the official reason, the manufacturer pointed to the expenses of the Vietnam war, and the lack of need for antisubmarine capability in that war. Modified DASH vehicles continued to operate for several more years in the Vietnam war. With attached television cameras, they were used as remote artillery spotters and organic reconnaissance by their ships. JMSDF used it through 1977. As of 2006, a small number of DASH drones were still in operation at White Sands test range, where they are used to tow targets and calibrate radars and electronic systems.

That's 20 years of active duty plus continued peactime service, pal.

Operators
Japan: Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force
United States: Navy & Army (not the air force!)

Gyrodyne QH-50 DASH - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
gyrodyne DSN / QH-50 DASH - Helicopter Database

The six Gearing class ships that PN used to operate had DASH QH-50 in US service.

As part of FRAM (fleet rehabilitation and modernization), 131 Fletcher, Sumner, and Gearing DDs received DASH. A further 37 destroyers, destroyer escorts, and destroyer leaders received DASH conversions. Between 1961 and 1963, 373 QH-50C DASH were delivered. From 1964 to 1968, 373 QH-50D models were delivered to the Navy. A total of 746 QH-50C/D models were produced. Of these, some 411 were lost operationally. High attrition rates and other problems caused the USN to begin phase-out DASH on 1 June 1970. All USN DASH operations ceased on 30 November 1970.

The Japanese Navy (Japanese Maritime Self-Defense Force or JMSDF) had seven destroyers operating DASH from 1963 through January 1977. Japanese experience with the little helicopter was much happier than the USN. In all, three QH-50C, one QH-50D were purchased for trials, with 16 QH-50D purchased for service operations. Of the 20 DASH units put into service, only three were lost operationally.

Of the QH-50 loses, 80 percent were due to shipboard or airborne electronics failures, 10 percent to operator error, 5 percent to enemy action over Vietnam, and 5 percent to airframe or engine failures. Gyrodyne continued to support the remaining QH-50 helicopters in-service.

After phase-out by the Navy, the surviving drone helicopters were transferred to the Army for use at the White Sands Missile Range and to Naval Ordnance Station, China Lake. At White Sands and China Lake, the surviving QH-50s were used to test new air defense systems. In 1996, the Navy transferred all surviving QH-50s to White Sands where they continued to fly for another ten years. The Army retired its last QH-50D on 9 May 2006.

Why did DASH fail and what was learned? DASH did work, but the biggest problem was its lack of redundancy for its controlling electronics. DASH control circuits can be compared to those of your typical set of Christmas tree lights. The string is wired in series and so they all have to work for the lights to work. Lose one light and the string goes dead. Getting it to work again means testing each and every one of the lights in the string to find the bad one. In the case of DASH, losing one of its electronic data links usually resulted in the loss of the bird. Some 80 percent of the 411 DASH losses were due to electronic guidance failures aboard either the ship or the aircraft.

The Gyrodyne Company moved from New York to Los Angeles in 1999. In California it was known as Aviodyne USA, doing business under the name of Gyrodyne-California Helicopter Co. From 1999 to 2004, the company partnered with several foreign manufacturers to market its manned and drone counter-rotating rotor helicopter. On 20 March 2004, after an unsuccessful five-year marketing attempt to bring back this unique helicopter design, Gyrodyne closed its doors and all assets were sold off or scrapped.

http://www.ppvolunteers.org/pdf_files/DASH_in_USN_Serice.pdf

 

[XYON]

No, it isn't. Number built: 755

1959, first flight. Introduction into service 1963. The DASH program was canceled in 1969. Although low reliability was the official reason, t


http://www.ppvolunteers.org/pdf_files/DASH_in_USN_Serice.pdf

Enough Said!