Pakistan Navy forces out an armed Indian Submarine from Pakistani waters.

[Thorough Pro]

Thanks for letting us know that NS was piloting the plane or captaining the ship that found the sub. Or did the PN contact him to ask what should we do now? Or maybe PN was following the SOP's like a professional and responsible institution. That sub was "close" to Pakistani maritime territory in "international" waters, why would we attack it?

It should had either been captured or sunk. There was a similar opportunity when Indian aircraft carrier could had been sunk by the only submarine in the region PNS ghazi but we chose not too. Today 4 decades latter another opportunity arises and all we do is to let it surface and go. Our response are pathetic to the core but it does not come as a surprise to me at least specially when you have a Modi's yar as the PM who's only agenda is to save his corruption. Everything else can go to hell.

They are two different scenarios as aircraft tend to move a lot faster than naval vessels. In case of aerial engagement PAF follows strict guidelines to attack only what the pilot is 200% sure that the intruder will fall within Pakistani territory.

In case of naval vessels, one they move a lot slower and also sink a lot slower and their final resting place at the bottom of the sea can be miles away from the original point where they start to sink depending on their sinking angle, direction of current and depth of sea.

For an attack to be legal, it has to be within Pakistan territorial waters.

That brings up an interesting question.
If an enemy is inside Your territory, and You fire a missile that locks on the enemy,
but before it hits, the enemy moves outside Your territory.
Is that a legal kill?

Probably more realistic to happen with aircraft (Russian Su-24 in Syria a good example)

 

[The SC]

Sorry but it's 24-48 hours maximum limit due to lack of not only fresh air but also due to CO2 congestion.

There are exchange systems for fresh air and CO2 that have existed for a long time, but let's assume it is 48 hours, which means that the Sub was detected before it had surfaced for the first time (still far from presenting any real danger) and then again when it has surfaced for the second time where it was too close for comfort and was warned to leave or turn away..

Hi,

That is why the capture of this sub was very important---it should have been captured---inspected and released.

For that it has to have trespassed the Pakistani territorial waters, which, apparently it did not, it was close or too close but not inside..

For an attack to be legal, it has to be within Pakistan territorial waters.

That brings up an interesting question.
If an enemy is inside Your territory, and You fire a missile that locks on the enemy,
but before it hits, the enemy moves outside Your territory.
Is that a legal kill?

Probably more realistic to happen with aircraft (Russian Su-24 in Syria a good example)

Well, to do that, this enemy must turn its submarine to a Mach 2 airplane..

 

[Penguin]

Well, I would suggest that you state your point and then move on. None of us have contracts to post here and at I dgaf about anyone's opinion unless its weighed with logic. Sadly, the agree to disagree philosophy is left ignored here by 99%.

You know the content of the posts in question and can judge for yourself about the level(s) of logic. You can also very well see who plays the man and who plays the ball.

 

[Star Expedition]

It is not helpful to run the Nuke Sub to Pak waters. Very dangerous action.

 

[MastanKhan]

I'm not waisting time in this thread, considering the attitude I'm getting from 3 specific people, with huge chips on their shoulder and/or too much ego. Have a nice day (I'm spending my time on more pleasent things)

Hi,

That is a strange post---.

Now was your moment to rise and shine. Screw those who have a chip on their shoulders and their attitude including me---.

Didn't expect you to be a weakling---.

Now when the sh-it hits the fan---you seek refuge---very interesting.

 

[Rafi]

The enemy sub was being tracked for more than 15 days, the nearest it got to our waters was 60 nautical miles.

Once it got there, it was pinged by air, sea and underwater forcing the captain to take the sub to the surface. (in submarine terms, he was waving the white flag).

 

[ShoutB]

The enemy sub was being tracked for more than 15 days, the nearest it got to our waters was 60 nautical miles.

If a submarines is tracked and if it happens to be type 209 Shishumar class, as claimed by Pakistan, then it is fitted with raging and intercept Thomson Sintra DUUX-5 radar EW capability. Which means any one who tracks will get tracked.

Any unusual or usual ASW activity by Pakistan Navy would be immediately picked up by IN navy destroyers in Arabian sea and would have alerted the HQ.

And normally in the video, I don't see any Indian flag on it, which is the first protocol, once a submarine is asked to be surfaced.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

The enemy sub was being tracked for more than 15 days, the nearest it got to our waters was 60 nautical miles.

Once it got there, it was pinged by air, sea and underwater forcing the captain to take the sub to the surface. (in submarine terms, he was waving the white flag).

You cannot force someone on perfectly legal business to do anything just by pinging.
A diesel/electric submarine has to surface regularily to recharge batteries,
and if you really tracked it for 15 days it would have surfaced multiple times,
and You apparently only got a video of one of them.

 

[-blitzkrieg-]

I doubt that the PN has enough ships to cover all of the coast, so even if they are aware that diversion
may be occuring, they have to choose to either concentrate on the diversion,
or ignore it.
The submarine has the asvantage, unless there is something similar to the Sosus chain.

And where is the source for claiming that an AUV was used?

Indian navy is 4 times the size of Pakistan Navy but Indians also have a coastline 7 times longer than what Pakistan has to defend.I agree we are still short on developing the needed presence in our EEZ but our maritime territory has enough ships/subs to defend it

 

[The_Sidewinder]

Too much propaganda.

 

[RISING SUN]

There are exchange systems for fresh air and CO2 that have existed for a long time, but let's assume it is 48 hours, which means that the Sub was detected before it had surfaced for the first time (still far from presenting any real danger) and then again when it has surfaced for the second time where it was too close for comfort and was warned to leave or turn away..

Yes there are systems to generate oxygen, but in nuclear submarines to best of my knowledge, and certainly not in Indian diesel Electric boats. On the second point only it creates suspicion who was the owner of this boat? IN, how to identify. Any flag, audio or anything.

 

[Rashid Mahmood]

Most of member's here may have never seen a submarine in real life, but they want to comment the hell out of this incident with their precious analysis.

The actual details of such operations will never be released to the media, as it is classified information.

The information released to the media was enough, but as usual the media wants to make a story out of an outline and try to connect the dots, but as they don't understand such operations, they fabricate, assume and speculate to make things more confusing.

Clandestine sub opns are conducted by all navies to gather intelligence of their adversary. This has been done since WW2. We do the same against each other all the time.

In this case this unlucky CO, was caught while trying to enter its patrol area beforehand and then was tracked by the PN for some time with active and passive sensors. The sub was then told that we are "on top" and it had to surface to charge.

When a sub exposes her position, its the end of her mission.
The CO's career may have ended after his lapse.

 

[The SC]

Yes there are systems to generate oxygen, but in nuclear submarines to best of my knowledge, and certainly not in Indian diesel Electric boats. On the second point only it creates suspicion who was the owner of this boat? IN, how to identify. Any flag, audio or anything.

Oxygen is supplied either from pressurized tanks, an oxygen generator (which can form oxygen from the electrolysis of water) or some sort of "oxygen canister" that releases oxygen by a very hot chemical reaction. . Oxygen is either released continuously by a computerized system that senses the percentage of oxygen in the air, or it is released in batches periodically through the day.

Carbon dioxide can be removed from the air chemically using soda lime (sodium hydroxide and calcium hydroxide) in devices called scrubbers. The carbon dioxide is trapped in the soda lime by a chemical reaction and removed from the air. Other similar reactions can accomplish the same goal.

The moisture can be removed by a dehumidifier or by chemicals. This prevents it from condensing on the walls and equipment inside the ship.

In addition, other gases such as carbon monoxide or hydrogen, which are generated by equipment and cigarette smoke, can be removed by burners. Finally, filters are used to remove particulates, dirt and dust from the air.

Well there is a video or photos in this thread and other ones..No flag means either he Indian submariners were taken by surprise (maybe they were working and surfaced in total silence, no sonar or radar on/ although passive sonars should have been on, but who knows if they knew they were exposed and wanted to shut down all electronic emissions) or it was deliberate to insure deniability..

 

[krash]

250 NM is the EEZ

200 NM to 350 NM now.

 

[Khafee]

Have fun. Bring crisps.

And drinks. Instead of copying and pasting blindly, I posted pics that were relevant to this thread!

Your post:

Assuming these are periscopes...

South African 209/1400

Indian 209/1500

Greek 209/1200

From left to right: periscope, snorkel, communications antenna, ESM, attack periscope, navigation radar

Agosta 90B

Kilo class

Well, how would you chase away a submerged submarine? A non-nuclear submarine might be kept underwater, which eventually is a problem as air runs out. So, they either leave or surface. But you can't make a submarine leave at will.

https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan...-pakistani-waters.461722/page-37#post-8924845


My Post:

The unique thing about the Indian and Brazilian Type 209's is the placement of the snorkel. Unlike the newer 209's it's at the front of the mast.

Footage from PN:

View attachment 353651
View attachment 353658

INS Shishumar: A = Snorkel
View attachment 353650

View attachment 353653

Brazilian Tupi Class:
View attachment 353652

Now as one can see the PN footage and that of the IN's Type 209 bear an uncanny resemblance.

https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan...-pakistani-waters.461722/page-50#post-8927899