Pakistan must MORE Naval forces ASAP

[jagjitnatt]

^^ dont you think terrain hugging is too far fetched for a hypersonic missile? It wont change path quick enough to follow the contours of land...For speed you pay the penalty of maneuverability.

You're right. A hypersonic missile won't be able to fly at near surface levels. But terrain hugging doesn't mean that the missile hugs the terrain, it just means that the missile flies close to the ground, altering its altitude with the changes in terrain. Terrain hugging missiles no matter good fly a few hundred feet over the ground. And that too only for a short duration, because flying at surface levels burns fuel almost 3-4 times quicker. So the range gets shortened by a factor of 4.

So almost all missiles fly at higher altitude first, and then when approaching target, come down to an altitude of few hundred feet. So its not the terrain hugging part which is a prob for Brahmos, it can do that pretty fine, but the tough part is the reduction is range, and reduction in speed at surface levels. No missile can fly at hypersonic speeds at sea level. It would be like a max of 2-2.5 Mach.

For higher speeds, the missiles needs to reach altitudes of few thousand meters.

 

[jagjitnatt]

Actually Sir i was trying to ask the question reagarding the land platform. Can u please let me know if the Brahmos can do a terrain hugging on land vesion?? it would be helpful if u could point out why if it cannot.

Particularly Mr. notorius eagles point of 40,000 ft is too high according to me even if the missile is a supersonic one, because i remember reading somewhere about the vertical launching of brahmos and it doing the S-shaped manouvere (whatever that is) or something and also a steep dive.

Brahmos is capable of terrain hugging, but like every other missile, terrain hugging gets activated only when it is near its target. At that point the missile speed gets reduced. Brahmos can be made to hug terrain for all its flight, but then its range would be no more than 100 km.

 

[AMCA]

No we will ask slum dogs for money to upgrade our navy.

First pay us the Pre partition debt of 300 crore you owe to us Before you ask for more....

 

[notorious_eagle]

Dear All, a phalanx system might be able to stop a single anti-ship missile. However, given the speed of the Brahmos, I would not want to be in the ship trying to intercept it. Moreover, most anti-ship missiles are fired in volleys now and are pre-programmed to attack simultaneously and at different points of the ship, aft, port, topside, left-side, etc. This overloads the anti-shipping systems and ensures a hit.

That is exactly why a ship travels in a fleet, thus their are multiple options at hand to deal with the incoming threat. But just to be clear a Phalanx system does not fires random shots in the air, its guided by an FLIR Pod and its usually first round and first hit. Brahmos is not some cheap rocket, each missile costs around $2 million. The enemy can fire a volley of Brahmos but a fleet travelling with its multi layer defence has a good chance of neutralizing it if the threat is detected in due time. Bu the question is, how many volleys of Brahmos can the IN afford to fire because even the Mighty US Navy would think twice before launching a $2 million missile. Let me add another thing, Brahmos has a range of 280km. In order for IN Frigates/Destroyers to fire the Brahmos from a maximum range, they would need to expose themselves and come near our shore lines brining them right inside the target of our Anti Ship Missiles. After all, their is no chance our surface fleet would be venturing out into the open sea to face of the Indian Navy because that would be a guaranteed suicide mission.

personally think the PN made a mistake buying these F-22Ps, they will not stand a chance in any potential combat. The PN should have invested in more subs, and combat airplanes like the JF-17 or JH7A, and tactical nukes to hit ships in the ocean without land fallout and contamination. Take care.

Considering what our Naval Budget is, it is absolutely the right ship for the required job. PN wanted a light weight frigate that had good offensive and self protection capabilities, this ship suits our requirements quite well. Ships are not bought by a coin toss, their is a lot of evaluation work that goes on before a decision to purchase a ship is made. Using Tactical Nukes , are you kidding me.

Actually Sir i was trying to ask the question reagarding the land platform. Can u please let me know if the Brahmos can do a terrain hugging on land vesion?? it would be helpful if u could point out why if it cannot.

Particularly Mr. notorius eagles point of 40,000 ft is too high according to me even if the missile is a supersonic one, because i remember reading somewhere about the vertical launching of brahmos and it doing the S-shaped manouvere (whatever that is) or something and also a steep dive.

If Brahmos is travelling at a speed of Mach 3, their is no way it can hug the terrain like a subsonic cruise missile can. If the missile is travelling at 3 times the speed of sound, the general rule of thumb is that it needs at least an altitude level of 40 000.

 

[Areesh]

First pay us the Pre partition debt of 300 crore you owe to us Before you ask for more....

Don't you get bore of spewing BS all the time?

 

[AMCA]

Don't you get bore of spewing BS all the time?

Dont you feel Embarrassed being Ignorant all the time?

 

[Areesh]

Dont you feel Embarrassed being Ignorant all the time?

 

[AMCA]

 

[Areesh]

Huh... _!_

 

[AMCA]

Huh... _!_

huh ....._|_

 

[Safriz]

You're right. A hypersonic missile won't be able to fly at near surface levels. But terrain hugging doesn't mean that the missile hugs the terrain, it just means that the missile flies close to the ground, altering its altitude with the changes in terrain. Terrain hugging missiles no matter good fly a few hundred feet over the ground. And that too only for a short duration, because flying at surface levels burns fuel almost 3-4 times quicker. So the range gets shortened by a factor of 4.

So almost all missiles fly at higher altitude first, and then when approaching target, come down to an altitude of few hundred feet. So its not the terrain hugging part which is a prob for Brahmos, it can do that pretty fine, but the tough part is the reduction is range, and reduction in speed at surface levels. No missile can fly at hypersonic speeds at sea level. It would be like a max of 2-2.5 Mach.

For higher speeds, the missiles needs to reach altitudes of few thousand meters.

Most missiles would go into supersonic mode at the last leg of their flight before hitting the target..That means the only advantage Brahmos may have on other missiles is short time from launch to reaching the target.The missile pays another penalty for being Hypersonic,and thats carrying less payload,meaning a smaller warhead.

 

[satishkumarcsc]

Most missiles would go into supersonic mode at the last leg of their flight before hitting the target..That means the only advantage Brahmos may have on other missiles is short time from launch to reaching the target.The missile pays another penalty for being Hypersonic,and thats carrying less payload,meaning a smaller warhead.

It is done by integrating a Scramjet engine instead of a Ramjet engine. That was the original plan. So the Bhramos-2 warhead weight will not have too much of an impact.

 

[VelocuR]

Dismissed someone claim F-22P was bad choice. For Pakistan desperately for Submarines, we are also in process with China in discussion.

September 2010
Pakistani military confirmed that co-production with China submarines and large warships

Pakistan Navy Chief of Staff Norman Bashir (NomanBashir) will be said, following the successful completion of three Chinese F-22P frigates post-production, Pakistan and China have been identified to be larger in the production of submarines and warships, as well as procurement of modern weapons and equipment to cooperate.

Al-Bashir said in the media conference: "Just as we have with China in all other areas of cooperation, as cooperation between the two countries also have a naval history." Pakistani Ambassador Masood Khan also attended the meeting.

According to al-Bashir said that Pakistan Navy has already received three frigates, the first four are in Karachi Shipyard built jointly by the CMB. Pakistan hopes to 4 frigates, like the other three, as completed ahead of schedule. Referring to the performance of F-22P frigates, the al-Bashir will be said: "We are very satisfied with its performance, some of the technology is not inferior to the West."

Al-Bashir will have four-year visits to China, said that Pakistan wants to buy from China have more firepower and greater ships, such as the 4,000-ton frigate. It also plans to buy more British and French warships. Pakistan and China had proposed in the military and commercial areas (such as fisheries, economic development zones and goods, etc.) the development of maritime strategic cooperation.

Answer to a question he said: "We will not end, this cooperation will continue." Bashir pointed out that staff met with the Chinese side, he has identified areas of cooperation include the construction of submarines. He said that so far China and Pakistan have not yet co-production submarine, which is what Pakistan is now one of the areas you want to develop.

In addition, al-Bashir said Pakistan also hopes to build warships, submarines and more large-scale cooperation with China. He added that these ships may be higher than the current F-22P frigates greater. Bashir said the two sides carried out extensive discussions on this now, "we would obviously according to their needs and specifications to build warships and submarines." Moreover, al-Bashir pointed out that the two countries will also deepen the cooperation in the field of weapons and sensors.

Previously had reported that Pakistan's strategic organizations and the Beijing government also plans to discuss the training and leasing nuclear submarines. Chinese navy's "summer class" ballistic missile submarines could be an appropriate start, Pakistan Pakistan government will select a group of naval officers, they can learn how to handle the ballistic missile submarine: the first on shore or academic knowledge of learning theory, and in the sea manipulate, and concluding the strategic plan.

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Pakistan China cooperation in building submarines, bigger ships war identified

After successful completion of construction of three F-22 P Frigates in China, Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Noman Bashir said that Pakistan has identified to China the cooperation in the field of construction of submarine, bigger war ships, acquiring modern weapons and equipments. “We have the history of cooperation in the Navy with China like we have cooperation in all other fields”, said Noman Bashir while talking to media here at a reception on Saturday evening in which Ambassador of Pakistan to China Masood Khan was also present.

The CNS said that Pakistan Navy has already taken over three Frigates and the fourth one is being constructed with Chinese cooperation in Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works and hoped that like the three frigates, the construction of fourth ship in Karachi will be completed ahead of schedule. “ We will not stop here and this cooperation will continue”, said Admiral Noman Bashir while replying to a question.

He said that during his meetings with Chinese side, he had identified areas including building of submarines, as so far we had not entered into joint construction of submarines.

This is one of areas Pakistan would now like to explore, he noted.

He said that Pakistan also like to go for construction of bigger ships with cooperation of China.

These ships would be bigger than the current F-22 P Frigates, he added.

There is lot of discussion that are taking place, he said adding “obviously we will have the ships and submarines which will be according to our requirements and specifications”.

Also, the CNS said that in the areas of weapons and sensors we are going beyond what we had.

The Pakistani government official who spoke to Jane's on 9 June said that it was vital for the navy to acquire more submarines to offset "the pressure we will definitely come under" due to the rapid expansion of India's naval capability. "Our Chinese brothers have always come to our help and we are asking them for assistance once again," he said.

Although neither China nor Pakistan have ever publicly revealed the terms of their past financial arrangements, defence analysts say that China continues to offer long-term loans to Pakistan on concessional terms, allowing the country to continue with its military hardware purchases.

>>I think, maybe Type 039A/B (Yuan Class) Diesel-Electric Submarine or Song Class attack Submarine. The dream would include a Type 093 (Shang Class) Nuclear-Powered Attack Submarine!!

According to TaimiKhan: "Well here is my take, Pakistan orders Chinese subs, coming on loans, while funds are saved, diverted to another important requirement (PAF), once that requirement is satisfied, then PN looks for either U-214s or Andrasta's or both. "

 

[Penguin]

Dear All, a phalanx system might be able to stop a single anti-ship missile. However, given the speed of the Brahmos, I would not want to be in the ship trying to intercept it. Moreover, most anti-ship missiles are fired in volleys now and are pre-programmed to attack simultaneously and at different points of the ship, aft, port, topside, left-side, etc. This overloads the anti-shipping systems and ensures a hit.

I personally think the PN made a mistake buying these F-22Ps, they will not stand a chance in any potential combat. The PN should have invested in more subs, and combat airplanes like the JF-17 or JH7A, and tactical nukes to hit ships in the ocean without land fallout and contamination. Take care.

Phalanx is a CIWS - Close in Weapon System i.e. a last ditch system which only comes into action after all other lines of defence have failed to take done (a) missile(s). It should never be used ALONE as MAIN defence against missiles.

With F22P there are several layers of active anti-missile capability:
HQ7 missile
76mm gun
chaff/flares (medium range)
30mm guns
chaff/flares (close range)

The only thing supersonic speeds do is shorten reaction time and heighten kinetic energy (so that a hit will cause more damage even if the warhead doesn't explode or the ship is hit by debris from a missile detonated by defences). It doesn't magically make the missile invulnerable to interception. Higher speed can be countered by a) sensors capable of detecting AShM at longer ranges, b) weapons capable of engagining AShM at longer ranges, c) cooperative engagement capability and d) making sure you take out launch platforms (rather than having to engage missiles).

 

[Penguin]

Actually Sir i was trying to ask the question reagarding the land platform. Can u please let me know if the Brahmos can do a terrain hugging on land vesion?? it would be helpful if u could point out why if it cannot.

Particularly Mr. notorius eagles point of 40,000 ft is too high according to me even if the missile is a supersonic one, because i remember reading somewhere about the vertical launching of brahmos and it doing the S-shaped manouvere (whatever that is) or something and also a steep dive.

There is no reason whatsoever that the mere fact of VL would force Brahmos to go to a 14km altitude. In fact, Brahmos can do seaskimming as well (as low as 10m during terminal phase of flight).