Pakistan may study other fighter options as US asks Pakistan to make full payment for F-16 purchase

[Signalian]

I doubt that SU35, J-11, J-10, F-20, JH-7, EF, Rafale etc will ever make it in squadrons of PAF.
J-31 is a possibility.

SU-35/J-11. Pakistan doesnt need.
J-10. comparable to F-16 AM/C. Either sell all F-16 and start inducting J-10.
JH-7. Pakistan doesnt need
F-20. Pakistan doesnt need, J-31 can do the job.

 

[Kakaspai]

They would loose much more money with the Indian backlash.

How so?Aren't Indians dependent on Russia for spares and maintenance of the goodies

K
Yes... after forcing soviets out of Afghan did you think Russia would sell you guys su27 ???? It was only a pressure tactics by Russia after we went for French fighter... anyway so after the threat india went for Russian one... (mki or mig29 )

The gunship is outdated that's why we're moving to apache and didn't put real pressure on the Russians...

It wan't Russia it was Ukraine

 

[New Resolve]

I think PAF might step on the JF17 upgradation, SAM's or 2nd hand F16's etc till the J20 or other 5th gen is available. J10 doesnt seem like too much of a leap over existing capabilities to warrant a buy.

Su35 is a good option given CPEC and the large maritime frontier that needs coverage but to get SU35 there will be a collossal shift towards Russia, i'm talking Russian Navy on the Arabian Coastline. US-Pak relations will have to get pretty bad for that to happen.

Good thing is we have options, certainly not the 90's

 

[Lucky Breeze]

نواز ہمارا وزیر اعظم ہے اور اس کی بے ضابطگیوں پہ تنقید کا حق اس لیئے صرف پاکستانیوں کو,ہے کیونکہ ہم ہی اس کی لالچ اور بے ایمانی سے پیدا شدہ مسئلوں کا شکار بنتے ہیں.
غیر ملکیوں کو نواز شریف کی عزت پاکستان کے وزیر اعظم کے طور پہ کرنی چاپیئے اور کسی پاکستانی کو غیر ملکیوں کے ساتھ ملکر اس پہ تنقید نھیں کرنی چاہیئے.
جیسا بھی ہے, پاکستان کا سربراہ مملکت ہے

exactly! our own problem

 

[Rank]

That only means J10.

Being an adult in his right mind I'm pretty aware that the Su35 won't ever be sold by Russia to Pakistan and the J20 isn't matured yet.

Russian are broke they need money, As long as Pakistan pay cold hard cash, they will sell. I think the only delay in getting SU-35 is type of armament and modification Russian are willing to sell or allow Pakistan to do. J-20 isn't matured, neither do F-35 and Pak Fa but these fighters are still ages ahead of non-stealth platforms.

Since when J10 become mature'd according to ?

 

[omega supremme]

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has conveyed to the United States that it does not have the money to buy F-16 jets from its resources and has cautioned that if the stalemate over funding is not resolved it may consider buying some other fighter aircraft to meet its needs.

According to a diplomatic source, this was conveyed by Finance Minister Ishaq Dar to US Ambassador David Hale at a meeting at the Foreign Office.

The meeting was held last week before the controversy of procuring the F-16s became public.

Adviser on Foreign Affairs Sartaj Aziz, PAF Chief Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman and Special Assistant Tariq Fatemi also attended the meeting.

Initially, the deal for the sale of eight F-16s to Pakistan was to be partially funded through the Foreign Military Financing (FMF) with the US providing $430 million, while the remaining $270m was to be paid by Pakistan from its national resources. But after the Congressional hold on subsidising the sale through FMF, the US administration asked Pakistan to make a commitment to buy the jets from its own money.

But the Pakistan government refused to make any pledge unless the restriction on financing through FMF was lifted.

There is a perception in some quarters that the government made a mistake by refusing to make the commitment for the purchase of the fighter aircraft because doing so would not have precluded the option of financing through FMF in future.

The Pakistani commitment, it is believed, would have eased Congressional pressure on the administration, besides allowing the process for approval and appropriation of the entire FMF package to move forward. The process is being currently held back because of the very intense debate on the financing of the F-16 deal.

In view of the lingering impasse, the administration has now started emphasising on the Congress to focus on the package instead of getting stuck with one of its elements.

The FMF money for this year has to be approved and appropriated before September 30 or else the funds would remain no more available.

Adviser on Foreign Affairs Sartaj Aziz, in a media interaction on Tuesday, said Pakistan was working with the “suppliers to see what could be alternative sources of financing”.

Mr Aziz said that Pakistan would only buy the F-16s if some arrangement was worked out “otherwise we will look for some other (fighter) aircraft”.

He, nevertheless, looked optimistic about the issue being resolved and said: “We’ll be able to find some way out”. The message from the adviser looked very calculated.

It should be recalled that Senate Foreign Relations Chairman Bob Corker, whose committee has jurisdiction over foreign arms sales and who is maintaining the hold on the financing of the deal, had while voting in favour of the sale of the jets to Pakistan in March noted that he did not block the deal so that Islamabad is not driven towards Russian- or French-made jets.

Mr Corker had then said that he would like to maintain US leverage over Pakistan, which he described as uncertain ally, through its continued reliance on the US for maintenance of F-16s.

Despite approving the deal, Mr Corker withheld its financial component.

Among the key reasons behind the Congressional hold are concerns that Pakistan has not taken enough action against the Haqqani network; jail sentence for Dr Shakeel Afridi — the physician who had cooperated with the US in tracking Osama bin Laden; and fears about Pakistani nuclear programme.

Published in Dawn, May 4th, 2016

 

[BDforever]

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has conveyed to the United States that it does not have the money to buy F-16 jets from its resources and has cautioned that if the stalemate over funding is not resolved it may consider buying some other fighter aircraft to meet its needs.

According to a diplomatic source, this was conveyed by Finance Minister Ishaq Dar to US Ambassador David Hale at a meeting at the Foreign Office.

The meeting was held last week before the controversy of procuring the F-16s became public.

Adviser on Foreign Affairs Sartaj Aziz, PAF Chief Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman and Special Assistant Tariq Fatemi also attended the meeting.

Initially, the deal for the sale of eight F-16s to Pakistan was to be partially funded through the Foreign Military Financing (FMF) with the US providing $430 million, while the remaining $270m was to be paid by Pakistan from its national resources. But after the Congressional hold on subsidising the sale through FMF, the US administration asked Pakistan to make a commitment to buy the jets from its own money.

But the Pakistan government refused to make any pledge unless the restriction on financing through FMF was lifted.

There is a perception in some quarters that the government made a mistake by refusing to make the commitment for the purchase of the fighter aircraft because doing so would not have precluded the option of financing through FMF in future.

The Pakistani commitment, it is believed, would have eased Congressional pressure on the administration, besides allowing the process for approval and appropriation of the entire FMF package to move forward. The process is being currently held back because of the very intense debate on the financing of the F-16 deal.

In view of the lingering impasse, the administration has now started emphasising on the Congress to focus on the package instead of getting stuck with one of its elements.

The FMF money for this year has to be approved and appropriated before September 30 or else the funds would remain no more available.

Adviser on Foreign Affairs Sartaj Aziz, in a media interaction on Tuesday, said Pakistan was working with the “suppliers to see what could be alternative sources of financing”.

Mr Aziz said that Pakistan would only buy the F-16s if some arrangement was worked out “otherwise we will look for some other (fighter) aircraft”.

He, nevertheless, looked optimistic about the issue being resolved and said: “We’ll be able to find some way out”. The message from the adviser looked very calculated.

It should be recalled that Senate Foreign Relations Chairman Bob Corker, whose committee has jurisdiction over foreign arms sales and who is maintaining the hold on the financing of the deal, had while voting in favour of the sale of the jets to Pakistan in March noted that he did not block the deal so that Islamabad is not driven towards Russian- or French-made jets.

Mr Corker had then said that he would like to maintain US leverage over Pakistan, which he described as uncertain ally, through its continued reliance on the US for maintenance of F-16s.

Despite approving the deal, Mr Corker withheld its financial component.

Among the key reasons behind the Congressional hold are concerns that Pakistan has not taken enough action against the Haqqani network; jail sentence for Dr Shakeel Afridi — the physician who had cooperated with the US in tracking Osama bin Laden; and fears about Pakistani nuclear programme.

Published in Dawn, May 4th, 2016

Go for Mig 35, that is one of my favorites

 

[omega supremme]

Pakistan will get jets from elsewhere if F-16 funding not arranged, Aziz cautions US

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan will acquire jets from elsewhere if the United States (US) does not arrange funding for a previously agreed upon F-16 fighter jet sale, Sartaj Aziz, the prime minister's adviser on foreign affairs, cautioned the US as both countries lock horns over the purchase of the jets.

"If funding is arranged, Pakistan will get the F-16s, otherwise we will opt for jets from some other place," Aziz said, without clarifying which jets he was referring to and where they would be bought from.

Aziz elaborated the US administration has given its consent for the sale of F-16s, and the only hurdle is finances.


The US gives Pakistan $265 million as part of foreign military assistance, in previous years it was $300 million. The amount received is split between the three branches of the armed forces. Pakistan Air Force's (PAF) share is $80 million, which they had allocated for the last three years to buy the jets, added Aziz.

"The funding we received was part of normal military funding received from US, and not specifically meant for the purchase of F-16s. The US has informed us that we can use the funds for purchase of other military equipment and items, but not F-16s."

Pakistan had earlier reached an understanding with the US for buying eight F-16 planes. Under the deal, Pakistan was required to pay about $270m from its national funds. The US was supposed to provide the rest from its Foreign Military Financing (FMF) fund.

But at a congressional hearing, US lawmakers last Wednesday made it clear that they would not allow the Obama administration to use US funds for the deal.

Last Friday, a State Department official told Dawn that Congress had placed a hold on the deal, forbidding the administration from using US funds for enabling Pakistan to buy the planes.

And on Monday afternoon, the department confirmed that Pakistan will have to use its own funds if it wants the planes.

The latest announcement practically kills the deal as Pakistan may find it difficult to buy the planes at two and a half times more than the agreed price.

Aziz said Pakistan valued the F-16s for their effectiveness, but said that they could be replaced by JF-17 Thunder jets in its anti-terrorism campaign.

The adviser also expressed concern over India's growing military power and said if it isn't checked, Pakistan will be "forced to increase its strategic power" too.

"The international community should avoid steps which may disturb the strategic balance in South Asia", Aziz warned.

Aziz reiterated the government's resistance towards handing Dr Shakeel Afridi over to American authorities.

"We have rejected American pressure on Pakistan regarding Afridi, who helped the US trace Osama bin Laden. For the US he is a hero but for Pakistan he is a criminal," he stated.

Afridi's case is under review by a tribunal, and he is also suspected of links with terrorist organisations, Aziz added.

The adviser also confirmed that an Afghan Taliban delegation from Doha is in Islamabad for exploratory contacts and such contacts are maintained by all members of the Quadrilateral Coordination Group which consists of the US, China, Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Last week, the Afghan Taliban's spokesperson in Doha formally confirmed that a delegation from their political office in Qatar was visiting Pakistan and promised “fruitful results”, but rejected the impression that the group was there to discuss participation in peace talks with Kabul.


@Windjammer @Horus @Oscar @Zarvan

No intention to diminish relations with Pakistan: US

WASHINGTON: The United States has ‘absolutely no intention’ of diminishing its relationship with Pakistan in any way, says the US State Department.

At the Tuesday news briefing, the department’s spokesman refused to criticise Pakistan for saying that it would look for other options if a deal for buying eight F-16 fighter jets from the United States fails.

“These are sovereign decisions that nations make with respect to their defence needs, and it’s up to Pakistan to speak to how they’ll fulfil their defence needs,” said spokesman John Kirby when asked if Pakistan bought fighter jets from China, would it strain its relations with the United States.

“As for the relationship, as I’ve said many, many times, it’s an important one. It’s critical; it’s vital in that — particularly in that part of the world; and it’s a relationship we have absolutely no intention of losing focus on or diminishing in any way,” he said. “But these are obviously sovereign decisions that Pakistan has to make,” he added.

State Dept spokesman refuses to criticise Pakistan over F-16 deal comments
When another reporter reminded him that a Pakistani minister had described the US aid to Pakistan as “peanuts,” Mr Kirby said: “I would just simply say that, again, it’s an important relationship. We’re going to continue to support that relationship”.

The official defended the assistance that the United States has provided to Pakistan despite a strong opposition from certain lobbies in Congress.

“We fully stand behind the kinds of support that we have provided to Pakistan over the last many years with respect specifically to their counterterrorism capabilities and counterterrorism needs,” he said. “And we’re going to continue to look for ways to improve that cooperation as best we can”.

Last week, Congress prevented the US administration from subsidising the $700 million F-16 deal.

Under the arrangement, Pakistan was to pay $270m for the eight aircraft while the US was to provide about $430m from its foreign military financing facility.

Pakistan has expressed its inability to pay the entire amount.

Published in Dawn, May 5th, 2016

Go for Mig 35, that is one of my favorites

If the F-16 deal goes off then there are high chances we may go for J-10.

Mig-35 is not in Pakistan airforce mind but Su-35 is and it will come for two reasons

1). If india goes for rafale.
2).We need an aircraft dedicated for maritime operations for which Su-35 fits very finely

Note:
-- Pakistan is not very serious about F-16's. The only reason we are going for it because it is coming in free with some good technology and we are used to it

-- America needs Pakistan more than ever and so they will try their best to keep us happy

 

[fatman17]

there are no other options when your financial position is so weak.

china provides soft loans which have to be paid back in full but its aircraft require export licenses for the engines.
Russia = cash
france =cash
UK = cash
only US provides subsidies which come with political strings attached
Pakistan needs to understand nothing is for FREE.

 

[Cool_Soldier]

Hmm, If deal is dead, two options are there on the table. If we lose, You will lose something too.
Be a reliable strategic partner Dear USA.

1: J 10 C
2: SU 35

 

[Zibago]

This maybe blessing in disguise we can finally now move towards sanction free sources

 

[Immortan.Joe]

Well we need to start evaluating SU35..F16 has reached the age of scrap now!

The Pakistan Air Force is looking at other options including the Russian SU35, the Chinese J10 and the Chinese J20 stealth fighter, according to a senior foreign ministry official.

Russian are broke they need money, As long as Pakistan pay cold hard cash, they will sell. I think the only delay in getting SU-35 is type of armament and modification Russian are willing to sell or allow Pakistan to do. J-20 isn't matured, neither do F-35 and Pak Fa but these fighters are still ages ahead of non-stealth platforms.

Su-35 is also a good option but they if Pakistan will buy them they will be in few numbers just maybe

I do not understand this newfound fascination of Pakistanis with flankers. I mean it is ret@rded at so many levels.

1. India is second largest operator of flankers in the world (It has 4 times more Su 30 than Russia and only 40 less than total number of flankers with Russia). India has practically written operation manual of flankers.

I mean a purchase of any flanker by Pakistan would be even worse than purchase of F-16 by India. In case of F-16, at least there is USA and other NATO and non-NATO allies who have more experience than Pakistan, but in case of flankers, not even Russia has as much experience as India.

2. Flankers are one of the most costly military hardware in term of LCC. The maximum that Pakistanis could afford (a squadron at max) is going to do diddly squat against 300+ flankers that India would field. The whole fantasy of bombing India using jets is just that, a fantasy.

3. Su-35 does not bring any significant technological superiority over Indian Su-30MKI. It may be improvement over Russian Su-30, but India does not field vanilla version of Su30. It field souped up MKI version which has Indian, Israeli, French, and Swedish avionics. IAF has already tested Su-35 and rejected it out of hand as it did not had any significant advantage over MKIs, and MLUed MKIs would be superior to Su-35.

4. Su-35 has no future for a country like Pakistan. Su-35 is a gap filler for RuAF till it get enough FGFA/PAK-FA in numbers. There is no separate R&D project going on for upgrades of Su-35. All its technological improvements would be spin-offs of PAK-FA/FGFA project.

If Pakistanis have have forgotten it, I would like to remind them that FGFA/PAK-FA is Indo-Russian joint venture. All Intellectual property generated by it would be co-owned by India and Russia, which means that India could block sale of any equipment based on that IP (like Radar upgrades, Radar absorbent coatings etc) to third parties like Pakistan, and this time blacking would not be on lines of " Oh dear Ruskies! our bestest oldest friend! why you sell to Pakistan? why? why?", but on lines of " Hey! IP on which that radar is based is our property too. We forbid any sale of such radar to Pakistan".

In effect Su-35 that Pakistan would get is a monkey model which would not be up-gradable unless Russians specifically do R&D to improve Su-35, rather than ploughing tech generated by FGFA program into Su-35 (which would be economical option).




In Twin engines, Chinese models are limited to inferior dual engine models like JH-7 as Chinese J-11 are copied Russian design and exporting them would create a diplomatic row between China and Russia.

Personally, I think PAF should have inducted a European plane to diversify its inventory, whether it was Mirage-2K in 1990s or Gripen in 2000s. By making its airforce F-16 only, it has put all its eggs in one basket.

Russian are broke they need money, As long as Pakistan pay cold hard cash, they will sell..

Yes, Russians are broke; but what does Pakistan has to offer?

Just two deals that India is negotiating with Russians , FGFA and S-400, are worth north of $50 Billion. Why would Russia jeopardize its sale to India when the best you can offer is couple of Billions.

Especially after when you have shown your hand. You are too broke to pay even for F-16s (much cheaper plane in sticker price and maintenance value) and are being humiliated because you want them to be practically free. What makes you think that Russia would risk its trade with India for a country which has no money?

Mig-35 is not in Pakistan airforce mind but Su-35 is and it will come for two reasons

1). If india goes for rafale.
2).We need an aircraft dedicated for maritime operations for which Su-35 fits very finely

Note:
-- Pakistan is not very serious about F-16's. The only reason we are going for it because it is coming in free with some good technology and we are used to it

-- America needs Pakistan more than ever and so they will try their best to keep us happy

Go for Mig 35, that is one of my favorites

You have better chances of getting Mig-35 from Russia than Su-35.

Indian orders are bread and butter of Sukhoi and it would lobby against any sale to Pakistan with Russian defence ministry. While in case of Mig-35, if India objects, Russians would simply ask India to make up for lost sale opportunities by ordering Mig-35 which India would not do, hence clearing path for Pakistani sale.

India is Russia depended,

Much less than you think. While India has a lot of Russian equipment by Quantity, baring few like Su-30 and Mig-29K, are low tech, whose spares if blockaded by Russia could be easily manufactured by India.

Even for Su-30 ,we have reached the stage where we could manufacture them from Raw materials and India is an recognized (by Sukhoi) OEM of Su-30 spares which India could sell to other countries after paying royalty to Sukhoi. Though Migs would be grounded without Russian spares. Su-30 and T-90/72 would not.

They would loose much more money with the Indian backlash.

It is not just money, but also market and influence. US ,recently, has extended a kind of blank cheque to India ,if India come fully into US camp and ditches Russia and become proactive against China.

In this scenario, if Russia start acting like USA does, it would lose its USP of not being USA.

+ This Su-35 fantasy is product of some feel good talk of Vladimer Igorevich Kozhin ,an aide to Putin. Russian foreign minister has officially debunked any such sale or talks of it.

For more reason, see above posts.

I think @MastanKhan should also read this post as he too has delusion about Su-35, which he brings up in most of his threads.

 

[Hyperion]

Pakistan's foreign policy and the average planning capacity of it's decision makers is that of 4 months old baby...... and the State of Pakistan gets into more troubles than, perhaps my maid does on a daily basis..........

Future Pakistani fighter options, minus the seat, as that maybe BVR capable

Ab Pakistan kee halat pay rona nahi aata, balkay muskarahat see aati hai.............

 

[cirr]

I am sure that China is willing and ready to provide Pakistan with 8 WS-10B powered J-10Cs for 400 million USD.

 

[That Guy]

I think people making this argument have no idea about advanced manufacturing works.


Had this been the only plane that exist, and it was neither slated to be manufactured in numbers,nor replaced by anything else, ie Airforce was being abolished, then there would have been loss of jobs. But it is not so in this case. Here LM is replacing F-16 by F-35. That skilled labour which was working on F-16 would be provided with short training and used in manufacturing F-35s. It is cheaper and efficient than using completely new labour which need to be trained and would need to gain experience, and skilled labour is not your sweatshop worker in Apple assembly plant which has no value and could be easily replaced.

That's not how this works. A majority of the laborers that work on these fighters, are merely on a line (thus considered basic unskilled labor): That's why they're called a manufacturing and assembly lines.

You can't merely change the plane, and keep the line going, you have to retrain staff and bring in newer machinery to work on the new plane. 1 size does NOT fit all.

In fact, LM is actively warning that their F-16 manufacturing lines are in danger of shutting down, simply because there are less and less buyers. This is why they've been lobbying hard to get congress to approve sales to foreign nations, which include Pakistan.

Don't assume what others do and don't know, when your own knowledge is lacking.