Pakistan: Man accused of blasphemy shot dead at court trial

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

ALL I AM SAYING IS, A MATURE PERSON WHO UNDERSTANDS THE CONSEQUENCES OF HIS ACTIONS NEEDS TO BE CONDEMNED TOO WHEN HE INTENTIONALLY HURT THE SENTIMENTS OF A LARGE GEOUP OF PEOPLE

Responses and reactions should be proportionate - if the 'offense' is verbal insults, then the response should be verbal insults, if any.

With all due respect, the question isn't whether people should be free to condemn Ahmadis for their faith or free to condemn anyone who they feel insulted their faith. The argument is over using violence as a response to verbal 'insults' & over theological differences.

As I said earlier, people are free to view Ahmadis as non-Muslim, condemn them, proselytize against them, but using force, whether through mobs or through the State, to coerce them to violate their own faith and to discriminate against them, is unacceptable.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

So you blame others to be the thaikaydar of Islam and you yourself become one when it suits your narrative? Un Islamic act? How so?

This is what Mr Ghulam Ahmed Mirza used to think of non Qadiyanis.

"the founder of Ahmadiyya Jamaat said that the torment of the plague descended upon the opponents as a result of their denial and hostility towards him. Accordingly, Allah the Almighty rendered his claim truthful by safeguarding him and his family from the plague and the people of his town as compared to other towns. Moreover, those who believed him were saved far more than those who did not believe him."

I don't know why you had to turn this thread into Qadiyani vs non Qadiyani there was no need for it.

However please do spare some time to answer some very pertinent questions

Did Mr. Ghulam Ahmed Mirza claim to be recipient of divine revelations? (he did) but still I will love to read your answer.

"The fact is that in the divine revelations of which I am the recipient, words such as ‘messenger’, ‘apostle’ and ‘prophet’ appear not once, but hundreds of times."


If Mr. Ghulam Ahmed Mirza claimed to be a prophet a messenger and a recipient of divine revelations then his claim that he is a reformer only is contradictory and full of lies, no other Prophet, Messenger or Prophet Messenger acted the way Mr. GAM acted.

Where is the Divine book? Like Quran, Bible and other Holy books where is the Divine book given to Mr. GAM? If what he wrote himself is to be considered to be a Divine book ..... then why Qadiyanis have to still use Quran? Every Prophet, every Messenger and every Prophet Messenger brought new divine law .... whereas Mr GAM fooled Muslims and divided them when they needed to stay united.

The fact is Mr GAM was mentally disturbed, or else he would never have refused to attend funeral of his own non Qadiyani son

If Khatim un Nabiyun is "Seal of Prophets" (as Qadiyanis want us to believe) then where is seal for Mr. GAM? And if Khatim un Nabiyun is "Finality of Prophets" (as Muslims believe) then Mr GAM is a liar a fraudster a cheat who has tried maligning and harming Muslims and their religion.

This is how he used Quran's verses to fool people

“He it is Who sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth, that He may make it prevail over every other religion, even though the idolaters may dislike it” (See Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya Part III, p. 157 [English Translation]). In this revelation, this humble one has been clearly addressed as ‘messenger’."

I can go on there is enough to prove what is what and who is who .........

PS: Before you label me as an extremist that wants all Qadiyanis dead .... I don't believe there is any punishment for apostasy in Islam, I am all for rights of Qadiyanis as minority citizens, but no one can stop me from fighting a clear identity theft case.

I really don't care what Mr GAM, or anyone else, said about the Ahmadi faith or community.

My point is simple - the Quran clearly states that there is to be no compulsion in religion. Pakistan's law and the demands of some Muslims that Ahmadis be forced to not call themselves Muslim is a clear example of coercion and compulsion.

I have said repeatedly that you and everyone else is free to view Ahmadis as non-Muslim, usurpers, frauds or whatever else, but that does not give you or the State the right to declare them non-Muslim and force them to renounce certain aspects of their faith.

The Qur'an emphasises free choice. "The truth [has now come] from your Sustainer: Let, then, him who wills, believe in it, and let him who wills, reject it," it says (18:29). And also: "Whoever chooses to follow the right path follows it but for his own good; and whoever goes astray goes but astray to his own hurt" (17:15). Resoundingly, the Qur'an declares that "there shall be no coercion in matters of faith" (2:256). Belief is an individual choice ― or, rather, it is a choice involving the individual and God. Therefore, forced conversions are simply unacceptable, and anyone who would use force rather than persuasion to promote religion must ignore the view of the person central to the Qur'an.

Coercion
The capstone of the qur'anic case for religious liberty is the fact that not even the Prophet Muhammad could impose or force people to profess Islam. When people were unreceptive to the message of Islam, the Qur'an explicitly reminded him that he was never to resort to coercion: "Your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them [to believe]" (88:21). Evidence from Islamic history suggests that this view was held not only by Prophet Muhammad but also by his political successors. In one recorded example, an elderly Christian woman came to see the caliph Umar and then refused his invitation to embrace Islam. He became anxious that she might have perceived his invitation as compulsion. "O my Lord," he said, expressing his remorse, "I have not intended to compel her, as I know that there must be no compulsion in religion ... [R]ighteousness has been explained and distinguished from misguidance."

https://www.abc.net.au/religion/religious-freedom-in-islam/10419798​

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

if this was limited to mental health then Last Prophet(P.B.U.H) not warned us against false prophets,these people have sense of receiving huge money from foreign agencies but when arrested pretend to be insane,he not seem to be mental and has his hair and beard cut like normal person,by this logic any criminal will claim to have mental problems and will try to save himself from punishment,all terrorist will also use this logic if it is allowed

That's for an expert appointed by the court to determine after examination and analysis of the patient and his mindset, not for you or some terrorist thug to decide based on an audio or video.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

ulema who have more knowledge of Islam than you have accused this man of blasphemy and support this punishment so you have no authority to decide and regard it as unjust law

Those Mullah's should be arrested and hung for promoting hatred, murder and terrorism.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1288668684936974337

 

[T-123456]

A Pakistani man was arrested on Wednesday after he entered a courtroom in the northwestern city of Peshawar and shot and killed another man who was standing trial for blasphemy.

The man on trial was facing charges of having insulted the Muslim Prophet Muhammad, an offense that carries the maximum sentence of death under the country's blasphemy laws.

The suspect told police that he had been ordered to carry out the killing by Muhammad because the accused had belonged to the Ahmadiyya faith, a minority that Pakistan declared non-Muslim in 1974 for regarding its founder, Ghulam Ahmad, as a prophet. In orthodox Islam, there can be no prophets after Muhammad.

The group, which numbers some 4 million members, has faced persecution for decades.

One police officer, Azmat Khan, told the Associated Press that the accused had himself claimed to be Islam's prophet and had been arrested on blasphemy charges two years ago.

https://www.dw.com/en/pakistan-man-accused-of-blasphemy-shot-dead-at-court-trial/a-54365714#:~:text=A man accused of committing,been killed while standing trial.&text=One police officer, Azmat Khan,blasphemy charges two years ago.

https://urdu.nayadaur.tv/42408/?fbclid=IwAR2OScc9b6SzMfClgSu2gwb3djIxgSwmCERtpMZZrGMZVMubwtvS5yLhiHM

 

[khail007]

For me its very simple
State habe nothing to do with religion and everyone should be free to follow unfollow his/her faith.

Sir G, it is not so simple, Pakistan is Islamic State that's why it is known as Islamic Republic of Pakistan. The matter here on this forum is not 'follow/un-follow' but a minority sect with different beliefs is claiming to be Muslim - that is root cause to be addressed. Your personal wishes could not be of state's. So are in no position to impose it on others.

I reject moral /religous policing and laws.

Again this is your personal issue and not going to change the ground realities.
If ever person stays in his/her limits as described in Quran and Hadith - no such issues will be there.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Sir G, it is not so simple, Pakistan is Islamic State that's why it is known as Islamic Republic of Pakistan. The matter here on this forum is not 'follow/un-follow' but a minority sect with different beliefs is claiming to be Muslim - that is root cause to be addressed. Your personal wishes could not be of state's. So are in no position to impose it on others.

The law against Ahmadis is un-Islamic - if Pakistan is an Islamic State, then it shouldn't have laws violating the Quran's commands of no compulsion or coercion in religion.

 

[Iltutmish]

The law against Ahmadis is un-Islamic - if Pakistan is an Islamic State, then it shouldn't have laws violating the Quran's commands of no compulsion or coercion in religion.

I don’t want to get banned but I beg to differ.

1. nobody is forcing them to abandon their believes (they can praise GAM and think of him what they like). Nobody is forcing them to join a „mainstream“ sect.

2. Muslims have no unity in most matters of faith BUT for gods sake accepting the prophet Muhammad (PBUH) as final Messenger is something EVERYBODY has agreed on. This is part of the first pillar of Islam. As I mentioned earlier a Christian is a non-Muslim because his belief system doesn’t qualify him as Muslim. I am also not a Japanese women even if I claim to be one. The FACTS don’t care about feelings or sentiments.

3. The topic shouldn’t be whether they are Muslim or not. The topic should be how to strengthen and implement rule of law in Pakistan and to stop this mob violence.

4. I think PDF is not the place to discuss the Islamic ruling on blasphemy or apostasy. It would also be against the rules but if the administration allows us to do so we could start another topic dedicated to this (I don’t believe in mob violence or that apostasy is a crime, because there is evidence against it).

The state religion of Pakistan is Islam. We are not a Western country, we have a different history, religion and culture.

Btw: What would happen in the US if you falsely claim to be an US citizen? This is a punishable offense in the US!

 

[Trango Towers]

ulema who have more knowledge of Islam than you have accused this man of blasphemy and support this punishment so you have no authority to decide and regard it as unjust law

The same knowledgable ulema that's create a new sect each day to divide us. The same assholes that say to a Sunni kill a shia with taqbir and Visa versa. What ulema. Jahil leading the jahil.

Look and do as the prophet pbuh did. Be merciful kind compassionate and forgiving. Try to change people with your tongue and knowledge not the sword and blood. Learn from the life of prophet Muhammed pbuh and not your jahil ulema

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

What would happen in the US if you falsely claim to be an US citizen? This is a punishable offense in the US!

The correct analogy between the US and Pakistan on this issue is between Mormons and Ahmadis.

People seem to have difficulty understanding the difference between personal faith (you can believe Ahmadis are non-Muslim all you want) and the State forcing a community to declare themselves non-Muslim. The latter issue is the problem. The State should not be involved in determining who is or is not Muslim.

P.S: You're not going to be banned over making logical arguments in support of your position that do not celebrate or endorse murder, terrorism and vigilante justice. You did none of the latter and you have every right to express your point of view on Ahmadis.

 

[Trango Towers]

The correct analogy between the US and Pakistan on this issue is between Mormons and Ahmadis.

People seem to have difficulty understanding the difference between personal faith (you can believe Ahmadis are non-Muslim all you want) and the State forcing a community to declare themselves non-Muslim. The latter issue is the problem. The State should not be involved in determining who is or is not Muslim.

No one should be persecuted simply because we dont agree with them. We should be so good that people should desire to muslims. Sadly we are far from that

 

[Yaseen1]

you should change your name to agnostic qadyani instead of using Muslim word

The correct analogy between the US and Pakistan on this issue is between Mormons and Ahmadis.

People seem to have difficulty understanding the difference between personal faith (you can believe Ahmadis are non-Muslim all you want) and the State forcing a community to declare themselves non-Muslim. The latter issue is the problem. The State should not be involved in determining who is or is not Muslim.

P.S: You're not going to be banned over making logical arguments in support of your position that do not celebrate or endorse murder, terrorism and vigilante justice. You did none of the latter and you have every right to express your point of view on Ahmadis.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

you should change your name to agnostic qadyani instead of using Muslim word

Please stick to the topic.

My username is none of your business and your comment indicates that you've obviously run out of any logical arguments to counter the positions I and many others have taken on this thread.

I mean, are you going to reject Allah's commands of 'no compulsion or coercion' in religion, as clearly stated in the Quran?

 

[Trango Towers]

you should change your name to agnostic qadyani instead of using Muslim word

And that statement is the reason why people run from so called muslims like you. What example are you setting here.

You may have a beard and rolled up trousers...but you tongue is like a snake