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Pakistan likely to buy China’s Z-10 Thunderbolt attack helicopters

What's wrong in getting z10.. So what if they are in single digit numbers...in my opinion these will be evaluated in a real war scenario which will give valuable feedback to the user and the manufacturer, tell me is there any better experience than real combat. I believe this is only for the evaluation and to find out the short comings, Chinese can't have a better option than Pakistan as I don't see in the nearest future they are going to war against any country. My two pennies.
 
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Well, I kind of think Pakistan is asking for the wrong thing. PA should have gone for AH-1W instead of Zulu Cobra.

Dear
Ive been reading your posts on this thread...Thank you for your analysis, you do provide very informative post... Here you suggest very correctly that it is not easy to jump from one platform i.e. AH-1F to say Z-10 or T129...Every body agrees with that...its not easy for changing war tactics that one have mastered on the cobras for decades under US training, but things have changed really and drastically...People suggest that our army has to choose from namely platforms AH-1Z, T129, MI-28 and WZ-10, What i dont get it that AH-1Z's were never on offer to Pakistan...Not even the AH-1W you've suggested...Neither these are available....US don't want to sell more cobra's whether they are the F's, W's or the Z's...only help they are providing us on Wot is by maintaining (providing spares) AH-1F's and that too half heartedly...
Our army might be able to use F's cobra for a little longer time... but they won't last long, neither there are hopes (recent COAS visit to US) for procurement of upgraded cobra's....
 
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That's really an invalid argument IMO. The Chinese now have influence across the globe into many countries who use Apache's. If they really wanted to take a look, it would've happened by now. Plus they do have Eurocopter's tech which is based on the Western tech. Parts of which are used in Apache as well as its used throughout the NATO.

you can't copy from looking, you need to break it down and put every parts under the microscope. Not many country would have allow China to have that kind of access.

But the problem I am saying is more specific to source code, on the Longbow radar, getting the Radar is one thing, getting the code is another. Even tho the system may be the same across different platform, source code is unique and you can only start reverse engineering that Radar if you have break the source code.

If you are talking about other aspect with Apache, ie the A/B variation. I have read somewhere that China can make 2 whole AH-64A from the recycle material the US Sold to China and with the parts of S-70 the Chinese bought in the 80s.
 
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My personal opinion is that, Attack choppers should be distributed among PAF and PA.
Army Aviation should get MI-35 and if we get new Cobra gunships from US in future. While newer platforms whether we go for Z-10 or T/A-129, should be inducted in PAF.

I would like to see comments on this from knowledgeable members.
@Horus @DESERT FIGHTER @jhungary @Oscar @Irfan Baloch @Xeric
 
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As I now in a library, I can now reply better

The reason why PA cannot effectively use Z-10 or T/A-129 now is because of the craft itself. It doesn't matter if China or Turkey offer their chopper for free, even free stuff have a price tag and the maintenance cost would far outspend the existing Infrastructure in place with the Cobras.

When PA have substantial knowledge on how to upkeep a cobra better than going for a new system, where you literally start from Zero. You will have to send teams of mechanic and pilot to China and Turkey to train with the platform, then they will have to come back to Pakistan and teach the local PA mechanic and pilot on how to operate and maintain the craft. Without regarding the time to build up their efficiency to the Cobra level, the training regime alone would take 1 to 2 years time. Helicopter did not grow on tree, you can't make 50 or 100 helicopter in a year or any short period of time. Especially when China and Turkey are fielding both Helicopter themselves, you can understand they won't try to field Pakistan first instead set their own stock as their priority. All in the while PA would still need to wait for the T-129 and Z-10 to deliver, as they are new system, that mean you are simply gotta go with initial low production, which most likely ended up using them in training only, so you are talking about maybe 10-20 Z-10 or T-129 for the first few years and you still have to get proficiency with them. and that number is already very generous.

On the other hand, AH-1W is an old platform, that mean they are ready built, and the PA crew were trained substantially in them already, literally you can fill in the gas and you can go. (Well, I know it's not that simple) Where the accessories, armament and crew are already in place, basically, it would be fit in your old stock just like that. The only time you wait is for the US to ship them to you. That's it.

Another major problem you can see is the doctrine. AH-1 Built with US doctrine in mind, it was an American Helicopter, and they build on behalf of their own Combat doctrine regarding helicopter gunship. So when Pakistan Army use the AH-1, they don't just bought the system, they bought the US Gunship doctrine as well.

AH-1 and AH-64 is different than most Attack Helicopter there are in the market, they are not better or worse, just different, this is because US have a different doctrine using helicopter gunship than the rest of the world. Now the reason why Cobra works in Pakistan is because the situation in Pakistan is a bit similar than what the US expected during cold war, facing a massive enemy with a lot of tanks. In US doctrine, when you are facing a lot of tanks, you first ram your helicopter in the fray, and interdict the enemy column by taking out their leads(Commands), comms and ammo and fuel vehicle, then you left them stun, and you assault the enemy using your own armour and mechanized infantry to fill the gap between your armoured.

In order to perform what I just said, you will need two things, 1.) A tank that's more advance than your foes, and 2.) A helicopter gunship that you can use as a scout. What ticks the US Gunship is they are also scouts (Or in layman term, Light Attack Helicopter) in the old days, the US uses AH-6 Little bird with UH-60 Blackhawk and OH-58 Kiowa with Ah-64 Apache or AH-1 Cobra team to do the work, but today as the Kiowa retired, the US Army were left with Apache alone to scout the enemy, that's why the longbow system worth their money.

Now, other country have a doctrine to use their helicopter only to support their armour, what they essentially do is, they would ram their tanks in first, then fly their gunship using their tank to provide target coordination, essentially becoming the shooter of an armoured assault.

Now, if PA want to change from using AH-1 to T-129 or Z-10, then they will also need to change their way of forward thinking and doctrine development. They would have to move away from localised fight with standalone helicopter instead they would need to build a larger armour force and possible better AWAC system to compensate the lost of scouting ability from the Cobra. And that is not gonna do in just 1 or 2 years, not even maybe 5 years, and PA needed gunship now.

but hey, what do I know? According to @Keel, I am just a dude who is ignorant about military, law and geopolitics and maybe a private mopping floor and that's much about all I do in the military LoL :)

@DESERT FIGHTER @Thəorətic Muslim


Although i agree with everything you have said... but i dont want the army to get more cobras (personal opinion) .... there are three reasons that i can think off..

1) We have more advanced systems on offer.
2) Again sanctions (not that US is going to sanction Pak anytime soon... but still anyways).
3) Why not go for gunships that are being offered with joint production like the T-129?
 
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My personal opinion is that, Attack choppers should be distributed among PAF and PA.
Army Aviation should get MI-35 and if we get new Cobra gunships from US in future. While newer platforms whether we go for Z-10 or T/A-129, should be inducted in PAF.

I would like to see comments on this from knowledgeable members.
@Horus @DESERT FIGHTER @jhungary @Oscar @Irfan Baloch @Xeric

There is no need for the PAF to operate gunships. They are a battlefield radius asset and as such should be managed by the Army for its needs when and where it needs to. No need to go the Indian Air Force way and insist on holding onto a type for budget hogging.
 
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you can't copy from looking, you need to break it down and put every parts under the microscope. Not many country would have allow China to have that kind of access.

But the problem I am saying is more specific to source code, on the Longbow radar, getting the Radar is one thing, getting the code is another. Even tho the system may be the same across different platform, source code is unique and you can only start reverse engineering that Radar if you have break the source code.

If you are talking about other aspect with Apache, ie the A/B variation. I have read somewhere that China can make 2 whole AH-64A from the recycle material the US Sold to China and with the parts of S-70 the Chinese bought in the 80s.

They already have developed radars or their gunships.. so have the Turks with their MILDAR project..

My personal opinion is that, Attack choppers should be distributed among PAF and PA.
Army Aviation should get MI-35 and if we get new Cobra gunships from US in future. While newer platforms whether we go for Z-10 or T/A-129, should be inducted in PAF.

I would like to see comments on this from knowledgeable members.
@Horus @DESERT FIGHTER @jhungary @Oscar @Irfan Baloch @Xeric

PAF? nope... dont you think that will create logistical issues?
 
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Well, I can think of a reason why US won't let Pakistani have the apache longbow, China. If PA bought them, it would most certainly going to hit Chinese market and sooner or later there will be a lot of Apache Copy from China which Pakistan would ended up buying....


Apprehension that Chinese would reverse engineer AH-64 Apache if it is sold to Pakistan appears to be baseless.
Pakistan has manufactured Augusta ‘B’ submarine, can Pakistan manufacture these submarines in entirety thru reverse engineering even with the Chinese assistance?

Helicopter gunship is also a very complex project. It requires input from many different sources. Provided Chinese composite material technology is sufficiently advanced; only item Chinese could probably reverse engineer would be the helicopter frame and the rotors

Chinese were nearing an agreement to purchase AH-1 Cobras from the US in 1988; this was cancelled because of Tiananmen Square incident. Z-10 itself is designed mostly by the Russian Kamov Bureau. Helmet mounted targeting & navigation system as well as fire control systems are believed to have a lot of input from the experience that Chinese gained from licence manufacture of French & Israeli systems of similar nature. Only items of indigenous Chinese design appear to be the avionics and the power plant.
 
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Well, I can think of a reason why US won't let Pakistani have the apache longbow, China. If PA bought them, it would most certainly going to hit Chinese market and sooner or later there will be a lot of Apache Copy from China which Pakistan would ended up buying....

I didnt see that happen with F-16s,Orions ? or any other military systems recieved from USA?

The real reason is that USA doesnt want to piss off its new found gf india.
 
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There is no need for the PAF to operate gunships. They are a battlefield radius asset and as such should be managed by the Army for its needs when and where it needs to. No need to go the Indian Air Force way and insist on holding onto a type for budget hogging.

My say is that PAF do operate Helicopters also. C130 for Troops transportation and most important of all, squadrons for the role of CAS. Now Jets may be not that suitable for CAS on many occasions but Attack helos are. PAF could be more suitable for this role due to many reasons. PAF could provide more better trained, aggressive fighter pilots for these hi-tech machines. Network centric is one other domain. As PAF has the AWACS but not PA at this stage of time.
 
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My say is that PAF do operate Helicopters also. C130 for Troops transportation and most important of all, squadrons for the role of CAS. Now Jets may be not that suitable for CAS on many occasions but Attack helos are. PAF could be more suitable for this role due to many reasons. PAF could provide more better trained, aggressive fighter pilots for these hi-tech machines. Network centric is one other domain. As PAF has the AWACS but not PA at this stage of time.

What would PA operate AWACS? etc?


Gunships why PAF? In battle or some emergency situation in FATA... Do you think the commander on ground would first ask the HQ for gunship support who would than request PAF ? and by than it would be too late?? Can you point out 1 good reason why PAF instead of the army should operate gunships? besides you dont need fighter pilots for gunships.. otherwise there wouldnt have been any "army aviation corps" in the army to begin with..
 
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My personal opinion is that, Attack choppers should be distributed among PAF and PA.
Army Aviation should get MI-35 and if we get new Cobra gunships from US in future. While newer platforms whether we go for Z-10 or T/A-129, should be inducted in PAF.

I would like to see comments on this from knowledgeable members.
@Horus @DESERT FIGHTER @jhungary @Oscar @Irfan Baloch @Xeric

i can only get into detail tomorrow, i got no desktop.access...
 
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What would PA operate AWACS? etc?


Gunships why PAF? In battle or some emergency situation in FATA... Do you think the commander on ground would first ask the HQ for gunship support who would than request PAF ? and by than it would be too late?? Can you point out 1 good reason why PAF instead of the army should operate gunships? besides you dont need fighter pilots for gunships.. otherwise there wouldnt have been any "army aviation corps" in the army to begin with..
Bro,
1. Kindly tell me, is PAF not conducting majority of CAS in FATA right now?
2. AWACS is as important for situation awareness in skies but also of battlefield. PA is dependent mostly on PAF for battlefield awareness.
3. PAA was born for the need of general army aviation needs. Even now major chunk of troops movement is done through PAF C130s. PAA only got teeth with the induction of Cobras in 80's. Before that it has no gunship at all.
4. And i am in not way saying that PAA should be dismantled. They should retain MI35 which are dual purpose. Get more Cobras or other platform for their offensive punch.
5. In modern militaries, even USA and NATO. Airforce trained pilots are embedded with ground forces, to coordinates CAS. It may answer the need of purely aviator rather then Armyman converted pilot.
 
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My personal opinion is that, Attack choppers should be distributed among PAF and PA.
Army Aviation should get MI-35 and if we get new Cobra gunships from US in future. While newer platforms whether we go for Z-10 or T/A-129, should be inducted in PAF.

I would like to see comments on this from knowledgeable members.
@Horus @DESERT FIGHTER @jhungary @Oscar @Irfan Baloch @Xeric
Well we should have around 72 active attack helicopters like Z-10 or T-129 or MI-28 and around 50 MI-35 divided between special forces of all three Special Forces
 
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Previously Turkey had offered to gift three T-129 helicopters to Pakistan. Now this time China has given offer (in my opinion).
 
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