Pakistan involved in the J-10B research and development.

[Aslan]

To all those complaining about the Role of Pakistan in R&D well what about the earlier AC manufacturers and their exp, didnt they copy and modify someone elses design or used their design to build one of their own. Why is it not possible for an anyone to start from scratch, why cant we design one on our own. Why is it so hard for your guys to swallow.

 

[Manticore]

If we include licensed production as copying,as some so eagerly do when it comes to china, then the US would rank quite high on the list of 'copiers' . Here is a partial list…….

Martin B-57 Canberra - English Electric Canberra
McDonnell-Douglas AV-8 Harrier - British Aerospace Harrier
McDonnell-Douglas T-45 Goshawk - British Aerospace Hawk
Raytheon T-6 Texan II - Pilatus PC-9
Lockheed US101 (VH-71) - EH Industries EH-101
Allis-Chalmers J36 Engine - De Havilland Goblin
Pratt & Whitney J42 - Rolls Royce Nene
Westinghouse J54 - Rolls Royce Avon
Wright J65 - Armstrong Siddeley Sapphire
Wright J67 - Bristol Olympus
Westinghouse J81 - Rolls Royce Soar
Allison TF41 - Rolls Royce Sprey
The Packard V-1650 - Rolls Royce Merlin

There are not many engineers ,who have the inside info regarding these projects, blabbering out the secrets just to ease your curiosity and frankly i doubt that most would even understand any of the technical answer these engineers leak

Even if the pak engineers havent contributed anything in the projects , it doesnt mean that they havent learned anything in the process -- paf might just have gotten a jump starts in the field of R&D -- and thats what really matters

 

[AstroTrain]

Sorry to burst some bubbles but the claims here by some are outrageous.

Pakistan's contribution to either fighters are negligible. Lets looks at some facts:

What experience has Pakistan have with DSI intakes either in design or operation?

The only fighter out there that uses DSI is the F35 as well as early tests with the F16. Did the Americans give Pakistan the results of those F16 tests with DSI or blueprints for the F35 so they can engineer this technology into the JF-17? Nope.

What probably happened was the Pakistanis outlined some revised performance parameters they expect from the aircraft, the Chinese engineers brainstormed a new configuration to put DSI to reduce the RCS as well as increase T/W ratio. You need advanced super computers as well as wind tunnels to model the new intake configuration as well as facilities to test the optimal engine performance with the given DSI shape. Does Pakistan have any contributions here? Nope. Reading an F35 brochure that shows DSI in operation does not mean you contributed anything to said technology. You need the engineers and facilities to make it in operation.

The composite materials used require advance material industries, what is Pakistan's contribution here? o

How about the engine? Looks Russian to me with a later chinese version, Pakistan's contribution? 0

The only factor I see Pakistan contributing something is how the avionics and weapons system layout is expressed in the cockpit using their experience with flying western jets. Unfortunately that does not make you aircraft designers.

The same arguments can be made about the J-10B because it sure as hell looks like a J10-A and what was Pakistan's contribution to that bird? 2 key features DSI and AESA on J10B. The DSI argument has already been made above, what about the Aesa radar, what design and operation experience has Pakistan developed in this field? For that matter what conventional radar has it produced. 0

You can have all the operational experience with F16s as there is but pilots don't design aircraft, aircraft designers do, supported by a mature military industrial complex that give them the tools to bring their designs into life and operational efficiency.

Pakistan has never designed any aircraft before while China has decades of experience. Who contributed what now?

 

[HANI]

Sorry to burst some bubbles but the claims here by some are outrageous.

Pakistan's contribution to either fighters are negligible. Lets looks at some facts:

What experience has Pakistan have with DSI intakes either in design or operation?

The only fighter out there that uses DSI is the F35 as well as early tests with the F16. Did the Americans give Pakistan the results of those F16 tests with DSI or blueprints for the F35 so they can engineer this technology into the JF-17? Nope.

What probably happened was the Pakistanis outlined some revised performance parameters they expect from the aircraft, the Chinese engineers brainstormed a new configuration to put DSI to reduce the RCS as well as increase T/W ratio. You need advanced super computers as well as wind tunnels to model the new intake configuration as well as facilities to test the optimal engine performance with the given DSI shape. Does Pakistan have any contributions here? Nope. Reading an F35 brochure that shows DSI in operation does not mean you contributed anything to said technology. You need the engineers and facilities to make it in operation.

The composite materials used require advance material industries, what is Pakistan's contribution here? o

How about the engine? Looks Russian to me with a later chinese version, Pakistan's contribution? 0

The only factor I see Pakistan contributing something is how the avionics and weapons system layout is expressed in the cockpit using their experience with flying western jets. Unfortunately that does not make you aircraft designers.

The same arguments can be made about the J-10B because it sure as hell looks like a J10-A and what was Pakistan's contribution to that bird? 2 key features DSI and AESA on J10B. The DSI argument has already been made above, what about the Aesa radar, what design and operation experience has Pakistan developed in this field? For that matter what conventional radar has it produced. 0

You can have all the operational experience with F16s as there is but pilots don't design aircraft, aircraft designers do, supported by a mature military industrial complex that give them the tools to bring their designs into life and operational efficiency.

Pakistan has never designed any aircraft before while China has decades of experience. Who contributed what now?

Kindly change ur flags i think indian flag will do the job.............

 

[AstroTrain]

Kindly change ur flags i think indian flag will do the job.............

Well as I see it Pakistan contributed as much as to both birds as what Indian did with the MKI. Negligible. Listing some specs andhaving Russians in that case meet it plays little part into its design when would takes into account how the Russians have decades of experience in aircraft design while India can't even produce a crappy mig 21 replacement in 30 plus years, over budgeted and 90% foreign parts.

Both countries are virgins in this field. The only players with breadth and scope are the 4 major powers, EU, US, China and Russia.

 

[SQ8]

Sorry to burst some bubbles but the claims here by some are outrageous.

Pakistan's contribution to either fighters are negligible. Lets looks at some facts:

What experience has Pakistan have with DSI intakes either in design or operation?

The only fighter out there that uses DSI is the F35 as well as early tests with the F16. Did the Americans give Pakistan the results of those F16 tests with DSI or blueprints for the F35 so they can engineer this technology into the JF-17? Nope.

What probably happened was the Pakistanis outlined some revised performance parameters they expect from the aircraft, the Chinese engineers brainstormed a new configuration to put DSI to reduce the RCS as well as increase T/W ratio. You need advanced super computers as well as wind tunnels to model the new intake configuration as well as facilities to test the optimal engine performance with the given DSI shape. Does Pakistan have any contributions here? Nope. Reading an F35 brochure that shows DSI in operation does not mean you contributed anything to said technology. You need the engineers and facilities to make it in operation.

The composite materials used require advance material industries, what is Pakistan's contribution here? o

How about the engine? Looks Russian to me with a later chinese version, Pakistan's contribution? 0

The only factor I see Pakistan contributing something is how the avionics and weapons system layout is expressed in the cockpit using their experience with flying western jets. Unfortunately that does not make you aircraft designers.

The same arguments can be made about the J-10B because it sure as hell looks like a J10-A and what was Pakistan's contribution to that bird? 2 key features DSI and AESA on J10B. The DSI argument has already been made above, what about the Aesa radar, what design and operation experience has Pakistan developed in this field? For that matter what conventional radar has it produced. 0

You can have all the operational experience with F16s as there is but pilots don't design aircraft, aircraft designers do, supported by a mature military industrial complex that give them the tools to bring their designs into life and operational efficiency.

Pakistan has never designed any aircraft before while China has decades of experience. Who contributed what now?

Then I suppose all those poor people that went to China back in 2002 just went to open a Halal restaurant?
You have only mentioned facilities in your argument.. nothing more.
In that case any Pakistani who works and CERN and makes a discovery still has no contribution since the equipment and facilities were not Pakistani..
Is that your belief?
the same goes for the MKI.. The integration efforts by Indian engineers.. working with multiple manufactures.. counts for zip? because the equipment was not Indian??

 

[Jango]

People want some engineer straight from Chengdu to come in here and explain som avionic diagrams, some aerodynamic diagrams, and some other small configurations in high tech language, and when they will dont understand, they will say, ok. Well that aint gonna happen my friends. So we should believe what the inside and trusted sources say.

 

[AstroTrain]

Then I suppose all those poor people that went to China back in 2002 just went to open a Halal restaurant?
You have only mentioned facilities in your argument.. nothing more.
In that case any Pakistani who works and CERN and makes a discovery still has no contribution since the equipment and facilities were not Pakistani..
Is that your belief?
the same goes for the MKI.. The integration efforts by Indian engineers.. working with multiple manufactures.. counts for zip? because the equipment was not Indian??

Are you saying the facilities don't play a major part in a Bird's design and a fundamental mechanism to actually make in production?

You think these industries are cheap and unsophisticated that any country can build or allow other nations to use like they were planting so much corn?

China has decades of experience producing -many times shitty- birds before it got to this stage where it can evolve into improvements and entire new designs. Where is Pakistan's experience in this regard because there are no shortcuts? As I said again pilots don't design aircraft, aircraft designers do.

What pakistan can do is learn the process and specialize on some small sub components, like cockpit design, weapons layout but as far as producing a full fledge advanced bird from scratch not going to happen. All the 4 majors powers I outlined before both have the experience in Aircraft design as well as the multi billion $ facilities to finalize a production bird.

 

[houshanghai]

According to some old materials about JFT
Actually,dsi was PAF's request,and includes gothic LERX like F18.
bcz USA released F16 to Pakistan again.
JFT was no urgent as originally planned .but JFT must be updated ,which can satisfy the needs of the PAF.
then CAC redesigned inlet and LERX of JFT .That is today's JFT PT04.
If PAF would have wanted, PAF would have had JFT like PT01 or PT03.Then JFT BLK1 will not have DSI and gothic LERX now.

 

[houshanghai]

Are you saying the facilities don't play a major part in a Bird's design and a fundamental mechanism to actually make in production?

You think these industries are cheap and unsophisticated that any country can build or allow other nations to use like they were planting so much corn?

China has decades of experience producing -many times shitty- birds before it got to this stage where it can evolve into improvements and entire new designs. Where is Pakistan's experience in this regard because there are no shortcuts? As I said again pilots don't design aircraft, aircraft designers do.

What pakistan can do is learn the process and specialize on some small sub components, like cockpit design, weapons layout but as far as producing a full fledge advanced bird from scratch not going to happen. All the 4 majors powers I outlined before both have the experience in Aircraft design as well as the multi billion $ facilities to finalize a production bird.

Don't think you are always right

As well,CAC learn a lot from the experiences of PAC too.

Have a look at this interview
"Fierce Dragon" Development and Future - An Interview with the development of aviation products, CATIC Minister Li Pei print subscription refresh

google translate

Up to now, most of the world military aircraft development projects must rely on state funds, so called government projects, and there are few investment projects by enterprises. Xiaolong is Central Air Industrial Group and its subordinate units at their own expense, and to introduce clients to invest in China and Pakistan, a 50/50 partnership program, to achieve a military aircraft development model innovation. As the aircraft industry and the customers using their own funds to develop a foreign military aircraft, Xiaolong probably the same as the K8, the extensive use of foreign clients, and then equip the Chinese army.
Furthermore, the Air Force through the partnership with Pakistan-based cooperation, Pakistan side has provided a lot of useful experience to the Chinese side to bring a lot of new concepts and ideas, but also help China to complete the development of many aviation products. Interview, Pei told reporters that the future military and trade business, can not remain in the level of Xiaolong, China Aviation Industry Group may wish to have more and better products to obtain export licenses, and CATIC also will work to push them to the world; of course, more advanced models will also face more intense international competition. China is rising, the need to protect their strategic interests in the international arms trade with other aviation market power on the ongoing competition, and not allow such aircraft F-35 fighter jets to dominate the international market, the industry generally believe that China needs to develop a Xiaolong successor model to compete with them. Pei said that if China's future development Xiaolong's successor, hoping to continue the successful model Xiaolong.

 

[tvsram1992]

Well as I see it Pakistan contributed as much as to both birds as what Indian did with the MKI. Negligible. Listing some specs andhaving Russians in that case meet it plays little part into its design when would takes into account how the Russians have decades of experience in aircraft design while India can't even produce a crappy mig 21 replacement in 30 plus years, over budgeted and 90% foreign parts.

Both countries are virgins in this field. The only players with breadth and scope are the 4 major powers, EU, US, China and Russia.

agreed dude with most of your points ,
india dint contribute in su30/mk1 version , but indian avionics are used in mki.
Mig 21 is still best air superiority fighters but its night mare for pilots as it is not digitalized and every thing should be done mechanically.
The order comes like this
USA>Russia>Europe<China<India thats it. Remember India can get parts any where from world raging from west to east. Also we get full access to PAKFA and MRCA so that we can make it indigenous , By 3 years we can make mki a complete indigenous plane.Dont worry our Tejas got IOC and we will soon replace other migs which are not upgraded . And unlike Jf-17 its made in our country though it has foregin parts.

 

[mughaljee]

This is all the blessing of my Allah.

 

[SQ8]

Are you saying the facilities don't play a major part in a Bird's design and a fundamental mechanism to actually make in production?

You think these industries are cheap and unsophisticated that any country can build or allow other nations to use like they were planting so much corn?

China has decades of experience producing -many times shitty- birds before it got to this stage where it can evolve into improvements and entire new designs. Where is Pakistan's experience in this regard because there are no shortcuts? As I said again pilots don't design aircraft, aircraft designers do.

What pakistan can do is learn the process and specialize on some small sub components, like cockpit design, weapons layout but as far as producing a full fledge advanced bird from scratch not going to happen. All the 4 majors powers I outlined before both have the experience in Aircraft design as well as the multi billion $ facilities to finalize a production bird.

You still have not answered the Question and are beating around your own bush.
Does a PAF engineer working with the Chinese on the blueprint of the JF not constitute a contribution.

 

[tvsram1992]

You still have not answered the Question and are beating around your own bush.
Does a PAF engineer working with the Chinese on the blueprint of the JF not constitute a contribution.

Yes he has some contribution but its like some thing below.
A person went to a institute learned something and worked in project . Obviously he has some thing to contribute but since he was taught the credit is institute's .

 

[Jango]

Are you saying the facilities don't play a major part in a Bird's design and a fundamental mechanism to actually make in production?

You think these industries are cheap and unsophisticated that any country can build or allow other nations to use like they were planting so much corn?

China has decades of experience producing -many times shitty- birds before it got to this stage where it can evolve into improvements and entire new designs. Where is Pakistan's experience in this regard because there are no shortcuts? As I said again pilots don't design aircraft, aircraft designers do.

What pakistan can do is learn the process and specialize on some small sub components, like cockpit design, weapons layout but as far as producing a full fledge advanced bird from scratch not going to happen. All the 4 majors powers I outlined before both have the experience in Aircraft design as well as the multi billion $ facilities to finalize a production bird.

So, what did we say?, we also said that the contribution of pakistan was in the cockpit layout, avionics, DSI, LERX and a feew other things. But nobody on this forum has said that we have produced it ALL on our own!!