Pakistan in talks for 4 Ada Class Corvettes, T-129 Helicopters & modernization of agosta fleet

[The Accountant]

Yes and you two are not keyboard warriors surely. Great professionals telling us what the reality is of course. Media reports is wrong because it doesn't fit with your opinion. Statements by officials during the era are also not right.

And ToT, we all understood it wrong. It only means you can repair and upgrade (with Turkish help) your own submarines. Gee, I wonder why CAD was part of the ToT on the Agusta 90Bs...

Yes, this is where we enter Lala land.

Quite childish and stupid I must say. I'll leave you to your blessed condition.

Where do we call ourself professionals ... You are the one questioning PN based on ToT and i am saying that it is beyond understanding ... I am a civilian with no knowledge of technical affairs and i am admiting the fact whereas you are challenging the technicalities ...

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Re the Agosta 90B ... it wasn't exactly assembly, but not turnkey/independent manufacturing either.

Basically, KSEW could manufacture the Agosta 90B (e.g. cut steel, integrate subsystems, overhaul/refit, etc) and a lot of elements were transferred our way to improve shipbuilding capabilities.

However, the shipyard is the penultimate process of shipbuilding and we did require the requisite steel, engines, electronics, etc from the OEM. It's the same case with the Hangor (II) from China (the MoDP yearbook plainly states that KSEW will build the submarines with material kits from China) and every other ship we build.

KSEW is at where it needs to be, but everything leading up to a ship (e.g. steel, electronics, propulsion, etc) isn't in Pakistan at this time. Unless we nail that, we're going to continue importing critical materials.

The next step could at least be original design in that we free ourselves from the OEMs (e.g. Naval Group/DCNS, CSIC, etc) and just grab the critical materials directly. This way, we can decide on our supply pool and optimize costs (not get caught in OEM mark-ups and pressure).

 

[araz]

Re the Agosta 90B ... it wasn't exactly assembly, but not turnkey/independent manufacturing either.

Basically, KSEW could manufacture the Agosta 90B (e.g. cut steel, integrate subsystems, overhaul/refit, etc) and a lot of elements were transferred our way to improve shipbuilding capabilities.

However, the shipyard is the penultimate process of shipbuilding and we did require the requisite steel, engines, electronics, etc from the OEM. It's the same case with the Hangor (II) from China (the MoDP yearbook plainly states that KSEW will build the submarines with material kits from China) and every other ship we build.

KSEW is at where it needs to be, but everything leading up to a ship (e.g. steel, electronics, propulsion, etc) isn't in Pakistan at this time. Unless we nail that, we're going to continue importing critical materials.

The next step could at least be original design in that we free ourselves from the OEMs (e.g. Naval Group/DCNS, CSIC, etc) and just grab the critical materials directly. This way, we can decide on our supply pool and optimize costs (not get caught in OEM mark-ups and pressure).

That is a good post. We need to progressively improve local input into designing and manufacturing of ships in KSEW. A local steel plant producing large sheets of ship grade steel is a good start. Once we start we need to progressively improve local input. This would only happen if we could build dual use infrastructure for commercial and defence industry. This would incite private sector co-operation.
A

 

[The Accountant]

That is a good post. We need to progressively improve local input into designing and manufacturing of ships in KSEW. A local steel plant producing large sheets of ship grade steel is a good start. Once we start we need to progressively improve local input. This would only happen if we could build dual use infrastructure for commercial and defence industry. This would inc8te private sector co-operation.
A

We have sufficient steel demand to put it a dual use but our private organization cannot incur the capital investment required ... We are talking multi billion dollars investment ... Even revival of steel mill (which is in capable of producing ship grade steel) requires 500 billion worth of investment just to restart its manufacturing ...

The only way we can do is through givernment initial investment and then IPO

 

[Army research]

Pakistan needs two new research institutes with good funding and salary,
Advanced materials research and manufacturing where PHD materials engineers, physicists work on advanced contemporary and fututre nano coating etc advanced materials ( I have in fact been lucky enough some such facilities)
Then Pakistan needs an auto mobile industry,
Give it a couple of billion and good salaries I'm sure Pakistani young people expats and locals, can come up with engine designs and local cars, electronics required etc which are the first steps towards larger projects like jet engines etc,
However for this first Advanced materials manufacturing , functioning steel mills are needed ,
Then corruption free good salary and environment jobs so the brain isn't drained to the west

 

[The Accountant]

couple of billion are peanuts for the industries you are talking about ..

An example of this is Pak Suzuki was planning to invest Rs. 460 billion just to increase its production capacity and introduce new models in Pakistan ...

Pakistan needs two new research institutes with good funding and salary,
Advanced materials research and manufacturing where PHD materials engineers, physicists work on advanced contemporary and fututre nano coating etc advanced materials ( I have in fact been lucky enough some such facilities)
Then Pakistan needs an auto mobile industry,
Give it a couple of billion and good salaries I'm sure Pakistani young people expats and locals, can come up with engine designs and local cars, electronics required etc which are the first steps towards larger projects like jet engines etc,
However for this first Advanced materials manufacturing , functioning steel mills are needed ,
Then corruption free good salary and environment jobs so the brain isn't drained to the west

 

[Army research]

couple of billion are peanuts for the industries you are talking about ..

An example of this is Pak Suzuki was planning to invest Rs. 460 billion just to increase its production capacity and introduce new models in Pakistan ...

I was talking of research and very very limited research production ie hiring students professors physicists who would normally go and work abroad, giving them good labs etc
Once they research the material, then if material is ordered manufacturing facilities can be set up then.
Say they research air craft grade steel manufacturing techniques in 7 years then AZM orders pop in , you have immediate scale,
I'm not an expert but I believe acquiring the knowledge on how to produce something is the first step before actually doing the expensive part of producing it

 

[The Accountant]

I was talking of research and very very limited research production ie hiring students professors physicists who would normally go and work abroad, giving them good labs etc
Once they research the material, then if material is ordered manufacturing facilities can be set up then.
Say they research air craft grade steel manufacturing techniques in 7 years then AZM orders pop in , you have immediate scale,
I'm not an expert but I believe acquiring the knowledge on how to produce something is the first step before actually doing the expensive part of producing it

Well I think in the areas you are talking about (i.e. steel industry) there is more need of commercial production then research ...

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Im not talking about acquisitions, but r&d. That cannot stop brcause R&D spurs economics and military development and breeds indepence. That no different than stopping the nuke program because you have them... You need to continuously develop the tech. That will help spur jobs and new tech coming to market which will help the economy too. But other than that, i mostly agree.

Unlike USA , Pakistan's Navy construction is not Industrial scope or for Export our focus is normally to meet our own local needs most of time. Perhaps down the road we can build ships for other countries but for next 10-15 years it seems our own Navy's need would be priority

Recent success stories and these are absolutely brilliant A+ grade projects.

• Agosta Construction 15 years ago
• F22P Local Production (Some where between 2007-2013)
• Azmat Missile boat construction (Some where between 2014-Present)
• Turkish Tanker
• Tug boats / Utility boat projects

All these mini Projects have shown we can handle complex projects

The Azmat Missile boat program is a great learning tool for Local workforce.
No reason why this program should not continue to expand

The possibility of working on ADA Corvette project in house in Pakistan would be a another small step towards expanding our list of projects we made in house in Pakistan


Possibility of construction of

1> ADA in Pakistan (Out of Potential 4)
1> Chinese Submarine (Out of Potential 8)
1 > May be 1 Type054 (Out of Potential 4)

Would be a good learning step

I feel the Indonesian / Turkish ship construction programs are a bit ahead of Pakistan perhaps not only on Human Resource front but they have a Industrialization approach to their Shipyard i.e constructing Ships for other nations.

 

[Army research]

Well I think in the areas you are talking about (i.e. steel industry) there is more need of commercial production then research ...

Agreed yet I'm talking about more advanced materials, radars absorbent material etc ,
GAN based TRM modules, semi conductors etc

 

[The Accountant]

Agreed yet I'm talking about more advanced materials, radars absorbent material etc ,
GAN based TRM modules, semi conductors etc

Still first step should be to setup commercial setups as these technologies requires alot of materials to be produced locally otgerwise it will be just local assembly of parts purchase from outside ... But still we need to take a planed first step ...

 

[Tank131]

Yes and you two are not keyboard warriors surely. Great professionals telling us what the reality is of course. Media reports is wrong because it doesn't fit with your opinion. Statements by officials during the era are also not right.

And ToT, we all understood it wrong. It only means you can repair and upgrade (with Turkish help) your own submarines. Gee, I wonder why CAD was part of the ToT on the Agusta 90Bs...

Yes, this is where we enter Lala land.

Quite childish and stupid I must say. I'll leave you to your blessed condition.

Firstly, have always treated you and your opinions with the utmost respect. I don't appreciate your patronizing and rude tone. If you wish. For me to respond in kind I can and then some, or we can choose to maintain the civil and amicable dialogue we have had between the two of us. You decide.

Secondly, i am absolutely a keyboard warrior. I am not in the know, but i look at what has been done and what capacity and capabilities have been generated. Media reports arent wrong because they dont fit my opinion but because they have been proven inaccurate or uninformed time and again (especially in Pakistani media which much of the time, every member here can attest, doesnt know its head from its rear on defense matters). I give you Burraq and Barq for example. Everyone here knows that Pakistani media touts these as indigenous products, but no member here will claim that to be true. Everyone here will attest that they are in fact CH-3 UAV and AR-1ATGM respectively. Modified variants at best, but certainly not indigenous as Pakistani media claims

ToT has many levels and meanings. Please show me one single bolt, computer, sheet of metal or system that was made for a fourth A90B... Why not? Because Pakistan was doing so great with the 2 A70s? Or because A90B is a shitty sub? Or because Pakistan didnt buy the requisite tech to make the facilities that produce the products and materials to go into a sub. Neither did Pakistan want the A70 to still be operating, nor is the A90B a bad sub. The issue is Pakistan DOESNT HAVE THE CAPACITY TO PRODUCE ITS COMPONENTS. That's not a slight on Pakistan, its just a reality that Pakistan could afford a certain level of tech (the ability to assemble, maintain, upgrade the ships). This did not include the ability to manufacture the ship from scratch. It is akin to the ToT that India acquired with the MKI. Given kits, it can assemble in house without assistance, "maintain" it, and potentially upgrade it as its contract allows. At most they were also given the ability to cut the sheet metal too. This is very different from Turkey and the A-129 Mangusta/T-129 Atak. Turkey bought complete ToT and in that bought the rights to manufacture the chopper and its systems/subsytems. They build them. In house from scratch. They may still buy certain components (like the engine from UK), but the chopper is manufactured by turkey. If it wants make more, it can do so and It doesnt need kits from Italy like India does for MKI or Pakistan would if it wanted to build more A90Bs. That is a big difference.

Btw the CAD is central to understanding how the assembly process occurs. An i will do you one better, Pakistan could market the sub (supposedly per media reports published in Dawn), to anyone it wanted... But guess what, it would need kits to do so cuz it doesn't have the production facilities to make those systems and materials itself. If I am wrong, then show me the factories that are capable of doing so.

What they did do, which is why A90B project was so important, is set up KSEW as a place where large scale ships and systems COULD be manufactured. It provided the foundation to allow for the nascent industry to get off the ground. That industry has brought you F-22P Azmat, Fleet replenishment Tankers, will bring Chinese designed subs and likely at least 1 or 2 Type 054a frigates. What it needs is now component manufacturing. These things take time to develop and considering the last A90B was completed in 2002 and Khalid and Saad had MESMA installed without DCNS assistance means that since the start of the A90B project, development has actually been quite brisk and deliberate considering what KSEW has achieved in 16yrs.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Very well put @Tank131. No private entity will put in money for any project unless there is a guarantee for return on investment. GoP has been notorious in abandoning projects midway due to change in political setup or will. I am saying this from personal experience on project of a strategic nature whereby a private sector organization got the hit after investing a lot of money and time in R&D and eventually had nothing to show for it.

Also, the "Do it on your own" tendency of the government has not encouraged the private sector to come forward. The Government loves to buy large swaths of land, build huge complexes with bigger staff colonies and recreation areas, clubs, medical centers, procure fleets of buses to transport workers to their work places and then pay them salaries with terminal benefits and pensions! Costing billions to the exchequer. All this, if done, in the private sector, will be done at a fraction of cost, with results and will also create jobs (Lesser no doubt) but better paying ones with taxes given to the government and encourage innovation and efficiency inherent in a privately run business.

Same is the case with defense procurement....I had worked on different projects since 1982 till 1988 and most of the time things were "Cooked" in such a way that they went to certain "Prized" entities. This reduced the pool of entities providing supplies to the defense sector and as a result dwindling competition, investment, and tendency to depend upon a few entities which is strategically dangerous.

 

[Tank131]

Very well put @Tank131. No private entity will put in money for any project unless there is a guarantee for return on investment. GoP has been notorious in abandoning projects midway due to change in political setup or will. I am saying this from personal experience on project of a strategic nature whereby a private sector organization got the hit after investing a lot of money and time in R&D and eventually had nothing to show for it.

Also, the "Do it on your own" tendency of the government has not encouraged the private sector to come forward. The Government loves to buy large swaths of land, build huge complexes with bigger staff colonies and recreation areas, clubs, medical centers, procure fleets of buses to transport workers to their work places and then pay them salaries with terminal benefits and pensions! Costing billions to the exchequer. All this, if done, in the private sector, will be done at a fraction of cost, with results and will also create jobs (Lesser no doubt) but better paying ones with taxes given to the government and encourage innovation and efficiency inherent in a privately run business.

Same is the case with defense procurement....I had worked on different projects since 1982 till 1988 and most of the time things were "Cooked" in such a way that they went to certain "Prized" entities. This reduced the pool of entities providing supplies to the defense sector and as a result dwindling competition, investment, and tendency to depend upon a few entities which is strategically dangerous.

Amen brother

 

[The Accountant]

Very well put @Tank131. No private entity will put in money for any project unless there is a guarantee for return on investment. GoP has been notorious in abandoning projects midway due to change in political setup or will. I am saying this from personal experience on project of a strategic nature whereby a private sector organization got the hit after investing a lot of money and time in R&D and eventually had nothing to show for it.

Also, the "Do it on your own" tendency of the government has not encouraged the private sector to come forward. The Government loves to buy large swaths of land, build huge complexes with bigger staff colonies and recreation areas, clubs, medical centers, procure fleets of buses to transport workers to their work places and then pay them salaries with terminal benefits and pensions! Costing billions to the exchequer. All this, if done, in the private sector, will be done at a fraction of cost, with results and will also create jobs (Lesser no doubt) but better paying ones with taxes given to the government and encourage innovation and efficiency inherent in a privately run business.

Same is the case with defense procurement....I had worked on different projects since 1982 till 1988 and most of the time things were "Cooked" in such a way that they went to certain "Prized" entities. This reduced the pool of entities providing supplies to the defense sector and as a result dwindling competition, investment, and tendency to depend upon a few entities which is strategically dangerous.

Agreed brother ,,, for that purpose we have to create venture capital type of entities backed by government and top businessmans .. These venture capitalistist are professional hawks ,, expert in their respective management field, their job is to establish a new business entity or to revive a sick unit and then hand over it to other management after IPO ...

These guys are best of the best but need support in the form capital ... As the capital is generally provided by the consortium of business along with some portion backed by gov institutes so in case of failure of some projects they can bear the loss however return on successful project so huge probable double in a year's time therefore this is the risk worth taking ...

Whole Israel private sector was build using the same methodology ...