Pakistan in talks for 4 Ada Class Corvettes, T-129 Helicopters & modernization of agosta fleet

[Tank131]

Looks like 8 cell vls, 4 AShM and 2 76mm cannons. Interesting starting point for PN but ideally would be 16 cell vls, 8 AShM amd rear gun would be either a CIWS/PDMS combo.

 

[The Accountant]

Looks like 8 cell vls, 4 AShM and 2 76mm cannons. Interesting starting point for PN but ideally would be 16 cell vls, 8 AShM amd rear gun would be either a CIWS/PDMS combo.

8 cells in quadpack configuration ?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

STM Milgem based corvette for Brazilian tender!

View attachment 481927

I'd rather we delay the MILGEM program by another 2 years if it means the PN can get this design ... Just saying.

 

[HRK]

I'd rather we delay the MILGEM program by another 2 years if it means the PN can get this design ... Just saying.

this designe is sacrificing the number of anti-ship missile to accommodate VLS, but even with less number of AShM if we use this design in combination with our PNS Himmat FAC (third FAC of Azmat class) it will fulfil most of our need in near coastal regions in term of Fire power and air-defence and antisubmarine capabilities, which mean a combination of two ships i.e. Ada class corvettes + PNS Himmat FAC will give us capabilities almost equivalent to frigate with at least 10 anti-ship/land attack missile, minimum eight SAM and one anti submarine helicopter with increase chances of survivability than any of the current PNS ship

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

this designe is sacrificing the number of anti-ship missile to accommodate VLS, but even with less number of AShM if we use this design in combination with our PNS Himmat FAC (third FAC of Azmat class) it will fulfil most of our need in near coastal regions in term of Fire power and air-defence and antisubmarine capabilities, which mean a combination of two ships i.e. Ada class corvettes + PNS Himmat FAC will give us capabilities almost equivalent to frigate with at least 10 anti-ship/land attack missile, minimum eight SAM and one anti submarine helicopter with increase chances of survivability than any of the current PNS ship

Yep this will need to operate in a composite flotilla, i.e. 1 Type 054A, 2 MILGEM and 2-4 Azmat FAC. In a way, each will provide a distinct capability to the other. E.g. 054A for area wide air defence and long range targeting, MILGEM with ASW and a second area wide air defence layer, and the Azmat FAC a AShM carrier. The key to really extracting gains here is to ewuip the 054A with the HQ-16B (70 km), MILGEM with Umkhonto EIR (30 km), i.e layered AAW.

 

[Army research]

Yep this will need to operate in a composite flotilla, i.e. 1 Type 054A, 2 MILGEM and 2-4 Azmat FAC. In a way, each will provide a distinct capability to the other. E.g. 054A for area wide air defence and long range targeting, MILGEM with ASW and a second area wide air defence layer, and the Azmat FAC a AShM carrier. The key to really extracting gains here is to ewuip the 054A with the HQ-16B (70 km), MILGEM with Umkhonto EIR (30 km), i.e layered AAW.

Bilal, is the Umkhonto quad packable? The Brazilian milgem variant carrying 8×4 Umkhonto along with 54 s and harba, a decent punch

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Bilal, is the Umkhonto quad packable? The Brazilian milgem variant carrying 8×4 Umkhonto along with 54 s and harba, a decent punch

The Umkhonto isn't quad-packable.

Interestingly, in parallel to the Umkhonto EIR, Denel is also developing a new point-defence missile system (PDMS) in the Cheetah. The Cheetah only has a range of 10 km, but it's also deployable via VLS and quad-packable.

The Cheetah's VLS doesn't need to penetrate the hull; rather, it can sit atop of the hull (the missiles are compact). You can just swap out the aft-mounted CIWS cannons for a 4x4 Denel Cheetah PDMS, thus having a multi-layered AAW suite (30-35 km via Umkhonto EIR and 10 km via the Cheetah).

Finally, IF there's enough space, swap out the 2x2 subsonic Exocet/Otomat AShM with a 2x2 CM-302 supersonic-cruising AShM. Just use the MILGEM Ada (w/VLS) as a AShW/ASW escort to the Type 054A and Azmat-FAC, let the Azmat-FAC deploy the long-range sub-sonic AShM and LACM.

 

[Basel]

Yep this will need to operate in a composite flotilla, i.e. 1 Type 054A, 2 MILGEM and 2-4 Azmat FAC. In a way, each will provide a distinct capability to the other. E.g. 054A for area wide air defence and long range targeting, MILGEM with ASW and a second area wide air defence layer, and the Azmat FAC a AShM carrier. The key to really extracting gains here is to ewuip the 054A with the HQ-16B (70 km), MILGEM with Umkhonto EIR (30 km), i.e layered AAW.

Via Italy better SAMs for Milgem is possible.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Via Italy better SAMs for Milgem is possible.

Specifically MBDA. In fact, the STM corvette proposal for Brazil was specifically made to carry the MBDA SeaCeptor (CAMM), so it's actually quad-packable (4x8).

 

[Basel]

Specifically MBDA. In fact, the STM corvette proposal for Brazil was specifically made to carry the MBDA SeaCeptor (CAMM), so it's actually quad-packable (4x8).

I think it will be decent weapon system with Smart-S mk2 radar.

https://www.mbda-systems.com/product/sea-ceptor/

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) do you think CAMM-ER is possible for milgem?? it has length of 4.2 meters with 45km range, while CAMM's length is 3.2 meters with 25+km range.

https://www.mbda-systems.com/product/camm-er/

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) if we can have weapons from MBDA via Itlay then we can also have western AShM from MBDA i.e. MM40 block-3 EXOCET AShM for milgem.

https://www.mbda-systems.com/product/exocet-mm40-block3/

What do you say about it?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I think it will be decent weapon system with Smart-S mk2 radar.

https://www.mbda-systems.com/product/sea-ceptor/

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) do you think CAMM-ER is possible for milgem?? it has length of 4.2 meters with 45km range, while CAMM's length is 3.2 meters with 25+km range.

https://www.mbda-systems.com/product/camm-er/

Depends on whether the MILGEM CCT (Ada w/VLS) has enough depth under the bow deck for the CAMM-ER. This isn't known, but it would make good technical sense for the Brazilian Navy to demand space so that it can upgrade the ships later with the CAMM-ER.

However, the Brazilian configuration (i.e. with SMART-S Mk2 + CAMM + other European equipment) shot the MILGEM's price up to $400 m per ship. That's a solid $150 m more to what the PN is looking to spend on each ship ($250 m).

I think the Saab Sea Giraffe AMB + Umkhonto EIR + Denel DPG CIWS option, while not quad-packable as the CAMM, would be much cheaper and still provide good AAW. I believe the Sea Giraffe was sold to the Philippines for like $12-15 m each, while Algeria fitted two MEKO FFGs with the Umkhonto IR (a total of 64 cells) for $60-70 m (i.e. $30-35 m per ship).

 

[Basel]

Depends on whether the MILGEM CCT (Ada w/VLS) has enough depth under the bow deck for the CAMM-ER. This isn't known, but it would make good technical sense for the Brazilian Navy to demand space so that it can upgrade the ships later with the CAMM-ER.

However, the Brazilian configuration (i.e. with SMART-S Mk2 + CAMM + other European equipment) shot the MILGEM's price up to $400 m per ship.

I think the Saab Sea Giraffe AMB + Umkhonto EIR + Denel DPG CIWS option, while not quad-packable as the CAMM, would be much cheaper and still provide good AAW.

I don't think PN may go for Sea Giraffe, as its safer to go for Smart-S mk2 radar, which is also built in Turkey, also there is not much difference in range of both radars.

I think AESA Giraffe should be considered for replacement of older ground based radars specially old Giraffe radars.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) This SAM is also possible from MBDA (they can offer variety of solutions for PN).

 

[Goku-kun]

I don't think PN may go for Sea Giraffe, as its safer to go for Smart-S mk2 radar, which is also built in Turkey, also there is not much difference in range of both radars.

I think AESA Giraffe should be considered for replacement of older ground based radars specially old Giraffe radars.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) This SAM is also possible from MBDA (they can offer variety of solutions for PN).

is it official?
any press-release from turkish defence ministry on the deal?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I don't think PN may go for Sea Giraffe, as its safer to go for Smart-S mk2 radar, which is also built in Turkey, also there is not much difference in range of both radars.

I think AESA Giraffe should be considered for replacement of older ground based radars specially old Giraffe radars.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) This SAM is also possible from MBDA (they can offer variety of solutions for PN).

Remember ... there's little point in letting the cost of a MILGEM to reach that of the Type 054A (~$350 M) ... might as well add more Type 054As at that point. Rather, the MILGEM should have proper AAW coverage, but this needs to be done with truly cost-effective solutions. Though older, the Sea Giraffe AMB + Umkhonto IR combination would come at a lower cost, e.g. $30 m (radar + FCS + missiles) per ship. As long as the base platform can sustain, the PN can defer more advanced systems as part of a mid-life-update (hence another reason why it's a good idea to get the MILGEM with VLS as opposed to without it, extract more out of it in the long-term).

 

[Tank131]

Thanks @Bilal Khan (Quwa) for sharing info about the Cheetah SAM. Of note, the missile is only quad-packable in Umkhontos VLS system, not (apparently) in the on deck mounted system which is stand alone. That being said for Pakistan, it would be prudent to use a smaller ASW heli like the Z-9C (which it already operates) rather than a Seahawk sized chopper. That saves 24 ft of hangar space which can be converted to space for an 8 cell Umkhonto VLS (Maybe more but unlikely). Utilize the front VLS pictured above for Umkhonto-eir and the rear for quad packed Cheetah SAM giving 8 medium ranged and 32 short ranged SAM. You can still have a gun based CIWS above the hangar towards the rear (smaller footprint one like AK630).

Of note, the Cheetah is part of a layered C-RAM system (Counter-Rocket Artillery Mortar). Along woth the 3km Mongoose 3 transsonic missile it is said to have high kill probability for cruise missiles, air launched missiles, bombs, artillery and projectiles much in the way C-Dome/Iron Dome does, albeit at shorter ranges. Pakistan should, in my opinion, try to acquire this system (either in co-development/license production etc). In much the way the Israel air defense network merges Iron dome (for CRAM), Barak 8 (medium range), David Sling (long range/ABM) and Arrow 2/3 (ABM) for a comprehensive air defense network (with 90% hit probability in CRAM via Iron Dome), Pakistan could design a network around C-RAM, HQ-16B(medium) , HQ-9 (long range) and Hq-19/26 (long range and ABM). The C-RAM would be tremendously useful for PA at the LOC where routinely India is shelling and killimg people in AZK. Pakistan could use it much like iron dome where it is determined where the weapon will land and if its a residential region, fire off the interceptor.
http://www.janes.com/article/81207/denel-dynamics-unveils-layered-c-ram-system