Pakistan in talks for 4 Ada Class Corvettes, T-129 Helicopters & modernization of agosta fleet

[Penguin]

platform still have the same limitation that of pak navy this thing have almost no anti air capability(rim missile with the range of 9 km and price tag of 1 million per missile) and worst thing is it doesn't even have a cwis

The RIM-116 Rolling Airframe Missile (RAM) is a small, lightweight, infrared / rf homing surface-to-air missile in use by the American, German, Japanese, Greek, Turkish, South Korean, Saudi Arabian, and Egyptian navies. It was intended originally and is used primarily as a point-defense weapon against anti-ship cruise missiles. However, it can also be used against surface targets. It has a range of 9km. The block 2 missile has nearly double the effective range.

RIM-116 Block 1 (below) and block 2 (top)

Also, the dual role 76mm Compact Super Rapid naval gun as such is a good AAA system. If fitted with Strales System and DART ammunition it is capable of countering anti-ship missiles from 1,000 to 6,000 meters away, a longer range than other gun-based CIWS (i.e. that would be your CIWS).

Besides, Batch 2 Milgems / TF-100 would be larger (110m rather than 99m) and heavier armed, with double the number of Harpoon/AShM and 2x 8-cell mk41 VLS (for e.g. 16 ESSM and 12 VLAsroc)

yep even worse then f 22 p in some cases like missile defense as there is no cwis and no way Pakistan is going to buy a million dollar apiece missile it is too much expensive.last expendable munition we bought at this much price was an extremely potent force multiplayer MAR1 anti radiation missile and this tiny range rim can't even be considered a proper upgrade let alone a force multiplayer

Harpoon block II was about $1.2 million in 2011

RAM = missile based CIWS

"The RAM program is designed to provide surface ships with an effective, low-cost, lightweight, self-defense system which will provide an improved capability to engage and defeat incoming antiship cruise missiles (ASCMs). RAM is a joint United States and German venture to design an effective, low cost, lightweight quick-reaction, self-defense system which will increase the survivability of otherwise undefended ships."
http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/ram.htm

 

[Quwa]

The FT100 class frigates wont be something that we will be able to upgrades our MILGEM Corvettes into. They will have a bigger hull, meaning, a different ship. We may include some subsystems but with China working on much more projects, i guess procuring those sub systems for future upgrades from them would have been much easier.

Not sure about the operation costs but there surely will be difference. For one factor, Milgem have some 93 men on board while F22p and Type 54A have 165-170. This alone means difference in operational costs.
EDIT: Now i looked at the propulsion details and the difference keeps on getting bigger and that speculation keep sounding more and more realistic.

I was referring to the design. Should the PN decide to stick with the MILGEM, it can hop onto Turkey's efforts to scale the design up into a light frigate. So, it'd be 4 corvettes in the medium-term, maybe 4 TF-100 frigates after 2020, etc. At the end of the day, the F-22P is a descendant of the Type 053H3; is there a limit on how much we can beat and stretch that design. I honestly don't know.

 

[krash]

turkey is making basic jet trainer hurkus and that's why they give their T-37 tweets to Pakistan few months ago.. but now turkey wants to buy super mushshak from Pakistan.. hurkus-T-37-Super mushshak all are basic jet trainers why Turkey wants to buy Super mushshak from pakistan she has hurkus?

Please clear my confusion..
@Zarvan @cabatli_53 @Sinan @Windjammer @DESERT FIGHTER

The T-37 does not belong in the same category as the Mushak or the Hurkus, it is an advanced trainer not a basic one. Neither did Hurkus replace them in TuAF. We on the other hand have been replacing our T-37s with K-8s (not Mushaks).

That said, your point about Turkey purchasing the Mushak while developing the Hurkus being confusing is valid.

 

[Penguin]

Ship looks good, but I have following questions:

What capabilities it will add to PN? Are those really required when we are short of front line ships? Are those better then Type-56? @Penguin

Weapons fit is similar, but Ada class has advantage of hangar and probably better sensor with and growth potential

 

[Penguin]

this ship is expensive. first one ship costs $260m and helicopter is separate... and the contract for other 6 ships costs $1.5b, which put $250m for a ship and air support is separate...

As always, you can'make a straight unit cost calculation by dividing contract value by the number of ships (the contract usually includes all sorts of things besaides the ships temselves). For example, if ships are to be built in Pakistan, that would involve some extra cost.
Besides, good defence equipment costs money. If one is not willing or able to spend, don't come up with arm-long wish lists for high-end stuff (i.e. adjust your expectations to what is realistically possible).

ps: what is the source for contract value?

 

[volatile]

Hello can any body confirms what type of upgradation Augusta Submarines will be going ?

 

[Manticore]

Ada class corvettes of the Turkish Navy
http://navalanalyses.blogspot.com/2015/06/ada-class-corvettes-of-turkish-navy.html

Written by D-Mitch

 

[Zain Malik]

Why Pakistan is not contributing in TAI TFX....
Its a good 5th gen platform also provide help to our Turkish brothers......
And the result will be technologically advanced fighter of its class.....

 

[Blue Marlin]

The USA could use delays or even refusal as an underhanded tactic, and they do have a record of behaving this way in other competitions. On the other hand, angering both Turkey and Pakistan might be a higher diplomatic price than they’re prepared to pay, just to push Bell Helicopter’s AH-1Z. Rather than using export denial, the USA may have a better lever via military aid financing, which could be used to buy made-in-America AH-1Zs, but not T129s. If Turkey can offer good financing terms of its own, on the other hand, local anti-American sentiment and Turkey’s perceived political reliability may offer them some levers, too. Sources: Pakistan’s The National, “Pak-Turkish pact on combat copters on cards” | Defense News, “Turkey Pushes T-129 Gunships for Pakistan, but US Could Scupper Deal” | iHLS, “Turkey Angers the U.S. by Offering Helicopters to Pakistan”.

the usa is not dumb enough to anoy turkey. they need them. pakistan wanted tha zulus in the first place. the fact that they went to china and russia in search of attack choppers left the usa no choice but to clinch the deal. turkey did not have a third party export licence for the t-129 engines. the turks were and still are desprate for an export order from pakistan as they know they will buy alot and help establish them as a well known exporter.

I think these are just preliminary discussions. negotiations if things move forward would take up to 2 years. US approval for the T129 engine would also be required. this is going to be expensive, costing more than similar Chinese systems. where will the money come from.

can pakistan make naval grade steel ?

 

[Falcon26]

turkey is making basic jet trainer hurkus and that's why they give their T-37 tweets to Pakistan few months ago.. but now turkey wants to buy super mushshak from Pakistan.. hurkus-T-37-Super mushshak all are basic jet trainers why Turkey wants to buy Super mushshak from pakistan she has hurkus?

Please clear my confusion..
@Zarvan @cabatli_53 @Sinan @Windjammer @DESERT FIGHTER

It's a symbolic gesture more than anything. The Turks are ensuring that it's a two way defense partnership and not some buyer client arrengmemt

 

[eagleeye]

turkey is making basic jet trainer hurkus and that's why they give their T-37 tweets to Pakistan few months ago.. but now turkey wants to buy super mushshak from Pakistan.. hurkus-T-37-Super mushshak all are basic jet trainers why Turkey wants to buy Super mushshak from pakistan she has hurkus?

Hürkus b is advanced trainer with modern avionics like f16 . what we need is basic trainer. You guys are mixing some thing. Main task of milgem ist anti submarine warefare. Maybe it is for the indian subs. And next step ist tf100 or tf2000.

 

[nomi007]

we need to upgrade agosta-70 subs
they are still better platform

customize ada version with some advance Chinese system

T-129 has no future in paa inventory after AH-1Z & WZ-10

Combat Management System for New Type Submarine
AVELSAN designs, develops and integrates Submarine Combat Management Systems (CMS) for New Type Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) Submarines of the Turkish Navy. HAVELSAN submarine CMS efforts include;

• Development, upgrading, modification and maintenance capability for ISUS 90-72 Command Control system,
• Establishment of Land Based Test Site (LBTS) at HAVELSAN,
• Integrated underwater system software development,
• Torpedo integration to underwater Command & Control systems

 

[tarrar]

I don't know why PN is not going for bigger navy ships, such as Type 52 as they give more options & features to the navy.

I will prefer WZ10 over T129 & MI28 above both of them. T129 does not look impressive, it looks more of light weight helicopter. Apart from that T129 uses US made engines & other components so why would Pakistan tie a rope again around their neck.

 

[RAMPAGE]

@Penguin

Do you think that it'll be possible to increase the number of VLS cells to 32 for Istanbul Class (Milgim 2) without enlarging the hull? Also, What do you think about CAFRAD for Istanbul Class?

 

[_NOBODY_]

But I still don't understand the strategy of the 8 submarine deal at one go---.

I think it is a message to the US that we do not depend on you and whatever you do won't change the fact that China is our best friend, and it is to stop India from doing anything adventurous against Pakistan.