Pakistan in talks for 4 Ada Class Corvettes, T-129 Helicopters & modernization of agosta fleet

[Quwa]

http://quwa.org/2016/06/04/pakistan-eyeing-four-milgem-corvettes/

Pakistan eyeing four MILGEM corvettes

Turkey’s new defence minister, Fikri Işık , visited Pakistan on Friday and informed the media that a number big-ticket programs are underway between the two countries. In fact, Turkey and Pakistan committed to enhancing defence and defence industry ties at the beginning of May.

The programs on the table include the Pakistan Army’s interest in the Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) T-129 ATAK attack helicopter, the sale of Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) Super Mushshak trainers to Turkey, and two Pakistan Navy programs – the upgrading of the Navy’s three Agosta 90B submarines and the possible purchase of four Ada-class (MILGEM) corvettes.

Comment and Analysis can be found @ http://quwa.org/2016/06/04/pakistan-eyeing-four-milgem-corvettes/#sthash.VUo189r3.dpuf

 

[ozi2000]

I also believe that that I-Class frigate better for Pakistan.

Detailed Milgem Analysis: http://navalanalyses.blogspot.com.tr/2015/06/ada-class-corvettes-of-turkish-navy.html

If deal happens Pakistani brothers should see this as an infrastructure & technology build-up for an independent defence industry rather than a simple buy.

Istanbul Class Multi-purpose frigate

-16 Anti-ship missiles (Atmaca SSM)
-16 Cell MK-41 VLS
-STAMP+STOP stabilized guns
-3D search radar
-Ares-2N EW
-Hizir Torpedo Defense system (Aselsan)
-CIWS
-76mm main gun
-Genesis ADVENT CMS (Havelsan)







Tork Torpedo Hard-Kill


Hızır Torpedo Decoy



Atmaca Anti Ship Missile


Hisar Air Defence Missile


Umtas Naval Missile


Akya Heavy Torpedo

 

[New World]

platform still have the same limitation that of pak navy this thing have almost no anti air capability(rim missile with the range of 9 km and price tag of 1 million per missile) and worst thing is it doesn't even have a cwis

this ship is expensive. first one ship costs $260m and helicopter is separate... and the contract for other 6 ships costs $1.5b, which put $250m for a ship and air support is separate...

 

[Shabi1]

PN new acquisition programs seem to be going well
8 AIP subs + additional improved 4 F-22Ps + 4 Milgem Corvettes

Personally think the AH-1Z Cobras will be dropped after change in US attitude, will be revealed in the days to come. US marines have a pretty big requirement so the ones already ordered for Pakistan could go to them. No other justification for T-129 acquisition.

 

[Arsalan]

@Rashid Mahmood @Horus @Oscar @Jango @Sulman Badshah @balixd @Arsalan


No idea about that but these are good ships

Sure these are good ships, we were showing some interest in these from the very start of project but there is one little thing that i am not able to understand. What do these ships exactly offer in term of capability that we lacked from our F22p or the proposed/suggested F22p frigates? IF it is about "not putting all eggs in one basket" we can term this as a wise decision but ALL other things happening with military advise that there is no such long term planning or thinking being done so where this one off event came from?
Anyway, i will welcome any such deal, if it happens. That will mean that we will at least be trying to retain our two last friends in the international world, namely China and Turkey (i fail to think of a third name) and that is actually good news (though a bit ironic). Even if it means additional costs in logistics, maintenance, it may well be worth it. On paper, four improved F22p/Type 54A would make more sense tactically but keeping friends is a bit more important in our case and a wise decision. Also will bring some diversification. HOWEVER, I DO HOPE THAT IS THIS DEAL GOES THROUGH, THAT IS NOT THE LAST OF IT. We must then go for either Type54A+ or the likes with better AAW capabilities (to make Chinese ships the main force and Ada Class for diversification) or join in the TF100 OR even TF2000 program (to make the Turks our main suppliers of surface fleet, will LOVE that even though i do not see that happening)

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Newly-appointed Turkish Defense Minister Fikri Isik and Pakistani counterpart Khawaja Muhammad Asif met Friday in Islamabad to discuss bilateral defense cooperation Anadolu Agency reported

"One of the most important issues between [the two countries] is a deal for T129 attack helicopters," Isik said at a joint press conference held after the meeting.

The deal for the sale of the T129s -- a multi-role attack helicopter co-developed by Turkish Aerospace Industries -- will "further enhance our bilateral cooperation in the defense industry," Isik asserted.

The Turkish defense minister added that plans to purchase Pakistani-made Super Mushshak basic trainer aircraft were still in the pipeline.

He went on to note that the Pakistani authorities, for their part, had requested the purchase of four Turkish Ada-class corvettes (which would be built in Pakistan).

Isik also said that Turkey and Pakistan had begun discussing details of a cooperation deal by which Turkey would help modernize the Pakistani navy's fleet of three Agosta-class submarines.

Isik also met with Pakistani army chief General Raheel Sharif on Friday at Pakistani army headquarters in the garrison city of Rawalpindi.

At the meeting, the two men discussed regional security and defense collaboration, according to an army statement issued after the meeting.

Isik, for his part, voiced his appreciation for the Pakistani armed forces' contributions to the fight against terrorism and promotion of regional peace and security.

http://en.trend.az/world/turkey/2541889.html

in case somebody missed out
the issue .. the Turkish minister is pointing out is the Western components in T-129 that can face sanctions due to the hard work of people like Hussain Haqqani mardood in America

PN new acquisition programs seem to be going well
8 AIP subs + additional improved 4 F-22Ps + 4 Milgem Corvettes

Personally think the AH-1Z Cobras will be dropped after change in US attitude, will be revealed in the days to come. US marines have a pretty big requirement so the ones already ordered for Pakistan could go to them. No other justification for T-129 acquisition.

ex Pakistani ambassador for US (and now spokesman and keeper of Indian interests) Haqqani has worked really hard in getting that deal sabotaged and as you said in coming times it will face hurdles automatically like F-16s..

 

[Arsalan]

in case somebody missed out
the issue .. the Turkish minister is pointing out is the Western components in T-129 that can face sanctions due to the hard work of people like Hussain Haqqani mardood in America

Sir we purposely IGNORE such things to keep the discussion all pumped up and patriotic for a few days,, feel good factor you know! I just decided to go with the flow and let the things unfold them self.

 

[Quwa]

Sure these are good ships, we were showing some interest in these from the very start of project but there is one little thing that i am not able to understand. What do these ships exactly offer in term of capability that we lacked from our F22p or the proposed/suggested F22p frigates? IF it is about "not putting all eggs in one basket" we can term this as a wise decision but ALL other things happening with military advise that there is no such long term planning or thinking being done so where this one off event came from?
Anyway, i will welcome any such deal, if it happens. That will mean that we will at least be trying to retain our two last friends in the international world, namely China and Turkey (i fail to think of a third name) and that is actually good news (though a bit ironic). Even if it means additional costs in logistics, maintenance, it may well be worth it. On paper, four improved F22p/Type 54A would make more sense tactically but keeping friends is a bit more important in our case and a wise decision. Also will bring some diversification. HOWEVER, I DO HOPE THAT IS THIS DEAL GOES THROUGH, THAT IS NOT THE LAST OF IT. We must then go for either Type54A+ or the likes with better AAW capabilities (to make Chinese ships the main force and Ada Class for diversification) or join in the TF100 OR even TF2000 program (to make the Turks our main suppliers of surface fleet, will LOVE that even though i do not see that happening)

The MILGEM is a newer design, one with evident upgrade and development potential (as seen with the I-Class frigate program). There could also be something in relation to operational cost, but that's speculation on my part.

Regarding the Turkish defence minister's statements about the T-129, how and where did anyone get the U.S. into his words? He was talking about talks between Pakistan and Turkey. Attack helicopters are costly too.

 

[MastanKhan]

Sure these are good ships, we were showing some interest in these from the very start of project but there is one little thing that i am not able to understand. What do these ships exactly offer in term of capability that we lacked from our F22p or the proposed/suggested F22p frigates? IF it is about "not putting all eggs in one basket" we can term this as a wise decision but ALL other things happening with military advise that there is no such long term planning or thinking being done so where this one off event came from?
Anyway, i will welcome any such deal, if it happens. That will mean that we will at least be trying to retain our two last friends in the international world, namely China and Turkey (i fail to think of a third name) and that is actually good news (though a bit ironic). Even if it means additional costs in logistics, maintenance, it may well be worth it. On paper, four improved F22p/Type 54A would make more sense tactically but keeping friends is a bit more important in our case and a wise decision. Also will bring some diversification. HOWEVER, I DO HOPE THAT IS THIS DEAL GOES THROUGH, THAT IS NOT THE LAST OF IT. We must then go for either Type54A+ or the likes with better AAW capabilities (to make Chinese ships the main force and Ada Class for diversification) or join in the TF100 OR even TF2000 program (to make the Turks our main suppliers of surface fleet, will LOVE that even though i do not see that happening)

Hi,

Thank you for a good insight---. I was also thinking on similar lines---. I can listen to the deal being made---but I do not understand what is happening.

Maybe I should ask @Penguin to share with us the significance of this deal and compare it to the chinese frigates that @Arsalan is mentioning.

My thinking was that the need is for the 054 type frigate for the navy.

 

[Quwa]

Hi,

Thank you for a good insight---. I was also thinking on similar lines---. I can listen to the deal being made---but I do not understand what is happening.

Maybe I should ask @Penguin to share with us the significance of this deal and compare it to the chinese frigates that @Arsalan is mentioning.

My thinking was that the need is for the 054 type frigate for the navy.

Turkey is willing to offer a loan, that could be a factor. Our credit limit with China may not be as deep right now considering we agreed to put $4-5bn down on 8 submarines (and God knows how much on JF-17).

 

[Zarvan]

in case somebody missed out
the issue .. the Turkish minister is pointing out is the Western components in T-129 that can face sanctions due to the hard work of people like Hussain Haqqani mardood in America


ex Pakistani ambassador for US (and now spokesman and keeper of Indian interests) Haqqani has worked really hard in getting that deal sabotaged and as you said in coming times it will face hurdles automatically like F-16s..

He hasn't said anything like that

 

[MastanKhan]

Turkey is willing to offer a loan, that could be a factor. Our credit limit with China may not be as deep right now considering we agreed to put $4-5bn down on 8 submarines (and God knows how much on JF-17).

Hi,

I think we need to work up china a little bit more---.

If there was some transparency in the deals---we could have china pay for most of the stuff on very very soft term.

But I still don't understand the strategy of the 8 submarine deal at one go---.

 

[PaklovesTurkiye]

Mate, my eyes teared when i first heard the news... We always talked how our brotherly our nations are, saw signing of the Mou, lots of talks, visits but nothing solid.......till today.

- T-129s... i don't think, it will happen because of the US engine.

- Turkey principality agreed to buy Super-Mushshaks.
- Turkey agreed to loan 400$ Million for 4 Milgem...we can say that, it will happen.
- Modernizing of the subs, will happen too...... MoD says, deal will be singed in this month...

Wonderful news....so happy.

I was exactly thinking the same....Despite such wonderful ties, we didn't heard much about Turkish systems in Pakistan except upgradation of F16s by Turkish firm and other small scale dvelopments.

I blame it on our economy for this, we have money issue over here. We r trying our best to bring our economy back in good state. Once we become economically strong. Our relations will reach to new heights and then you'll see a lot of Turkish quality arms being fired from/through Pakistani shoulders. We all are happy at this wonderful news.

 

[New World]

turkey is making basic jet trainer hurkus and that's why they give their T-37 tweets to Pakistan few months ago.. but now turkey wants to buy super mushshak from Pakistan.. hurkus-T-37-Super mushshak all are basic jet trainers why Turkey wants to buy Super mushshak from pakistan she has hurkus?

Please clear my confusion..
@Zarvan @cabatli_53 @Sinan @Windjammer @DESERT FIGHTER

 

[Arsalan]

The MILGEM is a newer design, one with evident upgrade and development potential (as seen with the I-Class frigate program). There could also be something in relation to operational cost, but that's speculation on my part.

The FT100 class frigates wont be something that we will be able to upgrades our MILGEM Corvettes into. They will have a bigger hull, meaning, a different ship. We may include some subsystems but with China working on much more projects, i guess procuring those sub systems for future upgrades from them would have been much easier.

Not sure about the operation costs but there surely will be difference. For one factor, Milgem have some 93 men on board while F22p and Type 54A have 165-170. This alone means difference in operational costs.
EDIT: Now i looked at the propulsion details and the difference keeps on getting bigger and that speculation keep sounding more and more realistic.

Hi,

Thank you for a good insight---. I was also thinking on similar lines---. I can listen to the deal being made---but I do not understand what is happening.

Maybe I should ask @Penguin to share with us the significance of this deal and compare it to the chinese frigates that @Arsalan is mentioning.

My thinking was that the need is for the 054 type frigate for the navy.

Exactly.
One thing that might be happening that PN is changing to Turkey for surface fleet. A fleet tanks, four Ada class corvettes and future frigate and may be even destroyer under the same project. The question remains "WHY"
Time will clear up most of the doubts i hope.

turkey is making basic jet trainer hurkus and that's why they give their T-37 tweets to Pakistan few months ago.. but now turkey wants to buy super mushshak from Pakistan.. hurkus-T-37-Super mushshak all are basic jet trainers why Turkey wants to buy Super mushshak from pakistan she has hurkus?

Please clear my confusion..
@Zarvan @cabatli_53 @Sinan @Windjammer @DESERT FIGHTER

I hope these people will answer your confusion and in doing so, mine as well. If you look at the flight parameters or spec of these two aircraft, our have just one advantage, having "SUPER" in the name, it is a Mushaq SUPER!
On all other things from speed to range to rate of climb or minimum speed, Hurkus is better. No sure what this deal is about.