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Pakistan in talks for 4 Ada Class Corvettes, T-129 Helicopters & modernization of agosta fleet

@AZADPAKISTAN2009 I know it's silly to ask as it would have already mentioned in the current thread somewhere, Is ADA class have VLS? If yes then how many tubes?

Simple answer is , No .

But, ADA(Island-Class) is ASW based corvette program. In addition, it has full ASuW capability. This concept was designed to serve in a cramped sea and a sea field with a high level of modern submarine threat. It is one of the world's top war ships in terms of magnetic traces. A platform that fully meets the Littoral warfare and EEZ concept.

However, ADA classes may have an ESSM equivalent air defense system with future modernization. But, as I said, due to the diversified needs of the Turkish navy and crowded fleet management, the VLS cells were not considered in the Asw / Asuw Corvettes, but in the second stage of the project, the I class frigates.

We also discussed the issue of why Pakistan preferred ADA-Class instead of I class on here. My idea is as follows:

I see that some of our Pakistani brothers are not satisfied.

The MILGEM program is a very long process which will extend from 1400 tons displacement to 5000 tons. ADA Corvette customized task description, defense of territorial waters, submarine warfare and A2AD. In order to understand the choice made by the Pakistani defense ministry, it is first necessary to evaluate it in the general plan of the Pakistani Navy armament.

Also , in developing the ADA corvette, all of the non-recurring costs and emerging issues in the prototype process has been met by Turkey. The Pakistan Navy is investing in an engineering package that is now perfected.

Pakistan navy also becoming the main partner of MILGEM with Turkey , ofc without incurring the these costs.

Since the VLS system will not be included, it is mentioned as a shortcoming. If so, what kind of ammunition would the Pakistan Navy use with MK41 system? Turkey developing its VLS systems, also ESSM's domestic counterparts ammunition is not ready yet.

Cruise Missile Integration may make sense. However, there may be no immediate need for ammunition groups for which the response-time criteria to the extent required by the VLS are in the forefront. This demand can also cause extension of the project schedule. At the other corner I class frigate, still in prototype verification process. Thats means lots of non-recurring costs.

When Vls-certified domestic ammunition group is obtained without no restriction in the future, the VLS can be integrated into these ships. Even solutions on the deck are possible. for example

bae_systems_adl_deck_launcher_sna_2018_news.jpg


Another point I would like to draw attention to is the fact that the strategic relationship between the two countries is escalating. Following the AGOSTA class submarines modernization (SLCM capability), common infrastructure acquisition on Surface platforms will result in increased technical capabilities and cooperation of the two countries and stronger regional affairs of the two countries. The two brothers began to unite in technical sense for the first time, exploring the power that would come out of being together.




... We have opened a military ship program that we have been working on for 15 years to our Pakistani brothers with full rights. Turkey has spent billions and billions of dollars so far covered Milgem program. (all engineering and design activities, sub-system localization, protatip, and many years of navigational activities) Pakistan has acquired not only 2 ships but also this accumulation....
 
Simple answer is , No .

But, ADA(Island-Class) is ASW based corvette program. In addition, it has full ASuW capability. This concept was designed to serve in a cramped sea and a sea field with a high level of modern submarine threat. It is one of the world's top war ships in terms of magnetic traces. A platform that fully meets the Littoral warfare and EEZ concept.

However, ADA classes may have an ESSM equivalent air defense system with future modernization. But, as I said, due to the diversified needs of the Turkish navy and crowded fleet management, the VLS cells were not considered in the Asw / Asuw Corvettes, but in the second stage of the project, the I class frigates.

We also discussed the issue of why Pakistan preferred ADA-Class instead of I class on here. My idea is as follows:
I appreciate your detailed response, Sir!
 
@dBSPL One more question, as I am aware now it has AShW, ASW capabilities, it has anti aircraft weapon, different guns but I don't see any specific anti missile defense system weapon.

In my limited knowledge I can assume that it will work along with frigates of PAF but still shouldn't it have a self missile defense system?

And one other question is RAM anti aircraft missile and Harpoons are US made product. As US relationship with PAK and TURK is getting bad by time if US blocks supply of these weapons what replacement would be considered (Chinese for Pakistan or Turkish for Turkey)?
 
@dBSPL One more question, as I am aware now it has AShW, ASW capabilities, it has anti aircraft weapon, different guns but I don't see any specific anti missile defense system weapon.

In my limited knowledge I can assume that it will work along with frigates of PAF but still shouldn't it have a self missile defense system?

And one other question is RAM anti aircraft missile and Harpoons are US made product. As US relationship with PAK and TURK is getting bad by time if US blocks supply of these weapons what replacement would be considered (Chinese for Pakistan or Turkish for Turkey)?

Ada class corvettes will come with very powerful EW-ED suites. They will have CIWS or RAM-PDM systems as for close distance defense . Also, 76mm main gun can be used in C-Ram mode.

If I give a few examples of the projects ongoing in Turkey:

Hisar MANPAD 4km altitude, 6km range
Hisar-A Low Altitude IIR 10km altitude, 16 + km range
Hisar-O Middle Altitude, IIR guidance, 15km altitude, 25 + km range
Hisar-ON (Point) High Altitude Medium Range, RF (Radio Frequency) guided, 20km altitude, 50km range
Hisar-OD (Sea) Rim-7 Sea Sparrow RIM-162 equivalent.
Hisar-U High Altitude Long Range, IIR-RF Seeker, 20 + km altitude, 120-150 km range
GEZGIN (Project G) long range cruise missile (tomahawk equivalent)
National vertical launch system project
KORKUT-D 2x35mm CIWS and programmable ammunition
SAPAN electromagnetic SAM system
ATMACA SSM (Harpoon equivalent) +200 km range
TEMREN ASM (Penguin equivalent) + 20km range
AKYA heavy torpedo
ORKA lightweight torpedo

The issue of countermeasures systems is much more crowded and complex. Dear @cabatli_53 had quite detailed studies on this subject.

We foresee that all these systems will be completed by 2025. Except for National VLS and GEZGİN, there are project calendars in open news sources.
 
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Pakistan selects TBT-01 Yakamoz sonar for Milgem corvettes

Pakistan Navy has selected the Meteksan TBT-01 Yakamoz sonar for its 4 Milgem corvettes ordered earlier this year.

Deputy Director of Meteksan Defence Özgür Cankara stated that this was not as easy as it was supposed to be: For many years, Pakistan has been using the products of another European producer and we had to convince them that Yakamoz will perform better. We have fought seriously; government agencies also supported us and in the end, the user chose us by seeing the price / performance advantage of our product.

Meteksan Defence General Manager Tunç Batum emphasized state support in the talks: the negotiations with Pakistan have heroes both in the Ministry of National Defense and in the Naval Forces Command.

The Meteksan TBT-01 Yakamoz bow mounted sonar system was developed by Tubitak. The sonar system design also includes software and hardware to support a future Low Frequency Active Towed Array Sonar (LFATAS) installation. Aselsan is a leading candidate to provide this system.

http://www.milscint.com/tr/urunleri...isini-kurumsal-iletisim-alanina-da-tasiyor-2/

http://www.navalfutures.com/turkish-naval-procurements-a-closer-look/
 
Pakistan has been using the products of another European producer and we had to convince them that Yakamoz will perform better. We have fought seriously; government agencies also supported us and in the end, the user chose us by seeing the price / performance advantage of our product.

I believe the European sonar Pakistan wanted to use on Milgem is France made but It is a perfect news to read Meteksan sonar beated it for Pakistan. When TBT-01 Yakamos was developed, Engineers tested it against European sonars Turkish Navy operates and it was proven that TbT-01 is way superior than anything that was sold to Turkey. That is the same sonar Europe issued embargo for transducer components and ceramic dust to block production but Turkish engineers have developed all critical section of this sonar to break the barriers and now, It is a great pleasure for me to see Pakistan gave a good decision with selecting the same sonars.
karina1-1.jpg


Next one will be towed sonar of Aselsan called Hizir including low frequency towed sonar(LFAS), superior acoustic decoys and anti-torpedo-torpedo system to counter coming torpedos.


An inside information, Aselsan ZOKA acoutic decoys managed to blind one of the most advanced German torpedo, DM2A4 in trials. ZOKA succesfully changed the course of German torpedo with fake acoustic signals. That is a revolutionary news for us since this torpedo is operated by the most advanced navy submarines.

aselsandan-dusmani-yaniltan-muthis-silah-zoka-h1518161829-382af9.jpg
 
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I believe the European sonar Pakistan wanted to use on Milgem is France made but It is a perfect news to read Meteksan sonar beated it for Pakistan. When TBT-01 Yakamos was developed, Engineers tested it against European sonars Turkish Navy operates and it was proven that TbT-01 is way superior than anything that was sold to Turkey. That is the same sonar Europe issued embargo for transducer components and ceramic dust to block production but Turkish engineers have developed all critical section of this sonar to break the barriers and now, It is a great pleasure for me to see Pakistan gave a good decision with selecting the same sonars.
karina1-1.jpg


Next one will be towed sonar of Aselsan called Hizir including low frequency towed sonar(LFAS), superior acoustic decoys and anti-torpedo-torpedo system to counter coming torpedos.


The competitor was Atlas Electronik.

Besides Milgem, I hope the F-22P's also get ATAS as part of an MLU.
 
F-22p carry German sonar technology so not sure what French sonar was preferred ??

Engines are also German
 
I believe the European sonar Pakistan wanted to use on Milgem is France made but It is a perfect news to read Meteksan sonar beated it for Pakistan. When TBT-01 Yakamos was developed, Engineers tested it against European sonars Turkish Navy operates and it was proven that TbT-01 is way superior than anything that was sold to Turkey. That is the same sonar Europe issued embargo for transducer components and ceramic dust to block production but Turkish engineers have developed all critical section of this sonar to break the barriers and now, It is a great pleasure for me to see Pakistan gave a good decision with selecting the same sonars.
karina1-1.jpg


Next one will be towed sonar of Aselsan called Hizir including low frequency towed sonar(LFAS), superior acoustic decoys and anti-torpedo-torpedo system to counter coming torpedos.


An inside information, Aselsan ZOKA acoutic decoys managed to blind one of the most advanced German torpedo, DM2A4 in trials. ZOKA succesfully changed the course of German torpedo with fake acoustic signals. That is a revolutionary news for us since this torpedo is operated by the most advanced navy submarines.

aselsandan-dusmani-yaniltan-muthis-silah-zoka-h1518161829-382af9.jpg

Defeating the DM2A4 is indeed commendable. A-90Bs use them as standard heavy torpedoes.
 
Under MİDAS (Indigenous Piezoelectric Ceramic Development) project, composition development, characterisation, test and production skills were gained for Navy-I and Navy-II type piezoelectric ceramics. Sensor and index design, modelling, analysis and test skills were gained during the process of industrialisation of the wet-end units of YAKAMOS. Under the MST-01 project, transducers were supplied as spare parts for SQS-56 sonars in the inventory.

The test infrastructure with a depth of approximately 15 m, which enables performance of acoustic tests between 2-100 kHz thanks to its sensitive positioning system, was established on Bilkent Pond (Bilkent Pond Open Water Test and Calibration Facility). Moreover, pool and pressure tank infrastructures were also put into use. Having taken over YAKAMOS sonar through technology transfer by the TNFC and had a solid grasp of the system, Meteksan Defence will carry out the following activities for YAKAMOS-1 sonar used in the MİLGEM project:
20170325-2-22622354-20260038jpg.jpg


The sonar of the third ship of the MİLGEM project will have a series of novelties. Meteksan Defence started from the scratch with the sonar software and rendered the software units depending on the hardware used independent from the hardware. It developed on its own the PGA cards that were procured from abroad and are no longer possible to purchase from the same source. Since the noise level of the cards developed is lower than the previous cards, the sonar’s performance has been enhanced.

Similarly, the ADC-DAC cards that were procured from abroad but are no longer possible to purchase from the same source have started to be procured from a different source. Meteksan Defence also developed a dummy load that simulates wet-end to easily test all these modifications in the laboratory environment.

The sonar of the fourth ship of the MİLGEM project will have active tracker feature. Furthermore, the sonar will also have a simulation mode that will enable continuation of training activities during deployments as well. All capabilities of the last ship of the project will also be added to the sonars in the other three ships. The future plans of Meteksan Defence concerning YAKAMOS, which will become a product family, are as follows:

meteksan.png


YAKAMOS-2 sonar will be integrated to ships under modernisation program for BARBAROS class frigates. YAKAMOS-2 will be a version whose equipment is indigenised sticking to the architecture of YAKAMOS-1 and resistance to environmental conditions is improved.

İ class frigates will be equipped with YAKAMOS-3, a modular, scalable and integrated sonar suite whose software and algorithms have been improved. YAKAMOS-3 will be interoperable with different wet-end units on different platforms, thanks to its modularity. The sonar will be able to be operated with a wet-end that has fewer sensors on a ship of the size of a corvette and with a wet-end that has more sensors on a platform of the side of a destroyer.

Considering TF-2000 frigate will be used in high seas as well, Meteksan Defence will develop the low requency active sonar YAKAMOS-L which increases the detection range in such seas.

oO3D1q.jpg


The Future is in Fibre Optic Sensors
While developing the YAKAMOS sonar family using current technologies, Meteksan Defence also invests in future technologies. In this scope, Meteksan Defence, which works on fibre optic technologies in relation to the sensors of sonars, told about the point it had reached in Senior System Engineer Emrah İlbey’s presentation entitled “New Generation Fibre Optic Sonar Solutions for Underwater Platforms”. Fibre optic sensors are known with their high precision, low noise level, immunity to electromagnetic interference and ease of multiplexing (supporting of more than one sensors using a single fibre cable). Furthermore, such sensors enable generation of a thinner and lighter array that does not need electric power when used in towed arrays. Meteksan Defence uses Mandrel-Based Acoustic Sensing method on these sensors. In this method, fibre cable is wound around a cylindrical mandrel. All mandrels on the system have the same characteristics. One of them is on the dry-end and functions as the reference mandrel. When an acoustic wave hits the mandrel under the water, the mandrel’s diameter changes, which changes the length of the fibre coil. Thus, the optical path in the reference mandrel is extended, and a phase difference from the reference mandrel occurs. Meteksan Defence uses temporal multiplexing to drive through a single fibre that connects more than one mandrel.

Furthermore, the signal of the reference mandrel is transmitted on the same fibre for isolation of outdoor noise. Meteksan Defence conducted the tests for its sensors at the underwater acoustics test infrastructure installed in Bilkent Pond Open Water Test and Calibration Facility. The results indicate that high precision and low sensor self-noise values have been reached. İlbey stated that Meteksan Defence was ready to integrate these sensors to final products under the projects to be launched.

Resim2-21.jpg

Meteksan defense's sensor design for new generation Fibre Optic Sonar



Have a good reading !

Defeating the DM2A4 is indeed commendable. A-90Bs use them as standard heavy torpedoes.

Hmm ! It is published by Monch group as well.

HIZIR COUNTERMEASURES SYSTEM SUCCESS AGAINST DM2A4 TORPEDO
In June, an Aselsan official informed MONCh that the HIZIR Torpedo Countermeasure System (TCMS) had successfully completed a test deployment against a training version of the DM2A4 heavyweight torpedo. The torpedo was launched against the ADA-class corvette BURGAZADA, during her sea acceptance trials, from a range of 10-12km and was successfully seduced away from the target by decoys. HIZIR uses the DULGER expendable self-propelled target emulator and MEZGIT self-propelled jammer, both members of the ZOKA anti-torpedo acoustic decoy family. The system consists of an 800m long towed array passive sonar, a towed decoy located at the 650m mark of the array, shipboard decoy launchers for DULGER and MEZGIT, and supporting electronics and mechanical systems.

BURGAZADA is the third ADA-class vessel for the Turkish Navy and will be commissioned on 28 September, but the first to be fitted with HIZIR – her predecessors carry the SEA SENTOR Surface Ship Torpedo Defence System from Ultra Electronics. Aselsan completed factory acceptance tests of HIZIR in October last year, quickly integrating the system onto BURGAZADA, which set out on her maiden voyage on 18 March this year. Aselsan Deputy General Manager Mustafa Kaval told MONCh in May that the SEA SENTOR systems on the first two corvettes will ultimately be replaced by HISIR, adding: “HIZIR passed all tests successfully. [Turkish Naval Forces Command] has performed five more tests with HIZIR TCMS, it is proved that our system is much more effective than foreign one.”



24-turk.JPG


https://www.monch.com/mpg/news/ew-c4i-channel/4195-tr2409.html
 

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