Pakistan in talks for 4 Ada Class Corvettes, T-129 Helicopters & modernization of agosta fleet

[SQ8]

The fact is that every ship plays its own role in the fleet. Are we implying that the Turks are dumb for conceptualizing and manufacturing these ships?

As a business analyst , I will tell you that I can come up with ten ideas that I may not have much use for but can convince customers to purchase it.
The Milgem is not suited for Pakistan in the configuration we purchased just as I have zero need to purchase a memory foam filled bedsheet. My problem is the matress itself; does the bedsheet help to a small extent? Yes it does, but it does not fix my back problems nor is it worth the cost I pay for just a squishy cover.

The milgem is a good ship but considering the threats the PN faces it has a very limited scope beyond coastal operations and that too under suitable air cover.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

As a business analyst , I will tell you that I can come up with ten ideas that I may not have much use for but can convince customers to purchase it.
The Milgem is not suited for Pakistan in the configuration we purchased just as I have zero need to purchase a memory foam filled bedsheet. My problem is the matress itself; does the bedsheet help to a small extent? Yes it does, but it does not fix my back problems nor is it worth the cost I pay for just a squishy cover.

The milgem is a good ship but considering the threats the PN faces it has a very limited scope beyond coastal operations and that too under suitable air cover.

We were all here around this time in 2017 hoping, openly, that the PN would get the LF-2400 version instead of the Ada. Yes, as @cabatli_53 pointed out there are added costs to bringing the design to fruition, e.g. center of gravity tests and pool tests, etc. However, the PN had picked up an untested design in 2010 when it bought the PN Fleet Tanker! It did the same when it went for a new Agosta variant in the 90B, and again when it had tentatively agreed to procure the Swift Corvette. So, there's plenty of precedence of going for clean-sheet designs.

Note: this is not Turkey's fault. Rather, the PN corvette team intentionally sent an RFP of wanting a non-VLS equipped ship (confirmed by STM itself to @Bratva) when STM itself said (and showed) it can design a VLS ship for the PN. But our guys stuck with the Ada design until the contract was signed.

Best case scenario, they took out the papers of the original PN MILGEM attempt in 2006 when the Ada was the only option and thought that was the way forward... The solace we have now is that when the day comes to replace the F-22P, they'll consider an extended hull Ada (i.e. w/ VLS) and scale as much of the program.

 

[SQ8]

We were all here around this time in 2017 hoping, openly, that the PN would get the LF-2400 version instead of the Ada. Yes, as @cabatli_53 pointed out there are added costs to bringing the design to fruition, e.g. center of gravity tests and pool tests, etc. However, the PN had picked up an untested design in 2010 when it bought the PN Fleet Tanker! It did the same when it went for a new Agosta variant in the 90B, and again when it had tentatively agreed to procure the Swift Corvette. So, there's plenty of precedence of going for clean-sheet designs.

Note: this is not Turkey's fault. Rather, the PN corvette team intentionally sent an RFP of wanting a non-VLS equipped ship (confirmed by STM itself to @Bratva) when STM itself said (and showed) it can design a VLS ship for the PN. But our guys stuck with the Ada design until the contract was signed.

Best case scenario, they took out the papers of the original PN MILGEM attempt in 2006 when the Ada was the only option and thought that was the way forward...

The last is very likely and shows a complete lack of program management capacity along with even a basic requirement analysis on whosoever was managing and presenting to the VCNS (proj).

 

[TeesraIndiotHunter]

Dude Turkey is also buying russian s400 because we need it urgently.I mean yes we have our own long range air defence projects but it will be ready in 2023.We cant wait until 2023.there is war everywhere around us.

Turkey won't have its indigenous long-range anti-aircraft system operational by 2023. More like 2035.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

The last is very likely and shows a complete lack of program management capacity along with even a basic requirement analysis on whosoever was managing and presenting to the VCNS (proj).

There may be more head-scratching ahead ... e.g. Stirling AIP isn't the most optimal design for our environment (neither was, to be fair, MESMA). Ideally, we will have spoke to Dalian about designing a fuel cell AIP (and asking the PLAN to co-adopt to scale). Sure, maybe they will have had to reduce the order to six subs... but six very effective subs.

 

[Goku-kun]

There may be more head-scratching ahead ... e.g. Stirling AIP isn't the most optimal design for our environment (neither was, to be fair, MESMA). Ideally, we will have spoke to Dalian about designing a fuel cell AIP (and asking the PLAN to co-adopt to scale). Sure, maybe they will have had to reduce the order to six subs... but six very effective subs.

india has an ongoing project called "Project 75-I" in which they are buying six sumbarines with TOT from Russia worth of 8 billion USD of 'Amur-class' so are our type 039B better than these Amur-class sumbarines?

 

[SQ8]

india has an ongoing project called "Project 75-I" in which they are buying six sumbarines with TOT from Russia worth of 8 billion USD of 'Amur-class' so are our type 039B better than these Amur-class sumbarines?

No, the Amur is very modular submarines that is going to use fuel cell AIP and will be inherently quieter than the 39B’s.

 

[Goku-kun]

No, the Amur is very modular submarines that is going to use fuel cell AIP and will be inherently quieter than the 39B’s.

isn't type 039B an AIP sumbarine?
Type 039A submarine - Wikipedia
it clearly says here that is Diesel-electric, 1 shaft, AIP
and their displacement is far less than type 039B's displacement which means that they are small in size and maybe they can't carry ballastic missiles and also cost wise we are getting 8 039B's for 5 billion USD while they are getting 6 Amur-class for 8 billion dollars

 

[Gryphon]

The only major difference between these and turkish ships will likely be the weapons. The US isnt going to release RAM and i highly doubt PN wants to use Harpoon on these (they are probably ending the shelf life and are inferior to the missiles PN has available to it). The AShM is almost certain to Harbah. The air defense system is up in the air.

The old Harpoon inventory was replaced with Harpoon Block II between 2005-2008, in a program which involved purchase of upto 190 missiles (70 AGM-84L for P-3C PUP, 70 RGM-84L for 3x surface warships and 50 UGM-84L for Agosta 70s) worth US$ 550 million. What is Harpoon's shelf life? 30?

In PN, there is tendency to recycle equipment, a Phalanx has been moved to new PNS Moawin from a retiring ship of the same name. Phalanx is inferior to new 30mm and 35mm systems from China/Turkey but still PN recycled it with cost reduction in mind.

Foreign MTCR restricted AShM's have been a drain on PN's small budget, each costing millions of dollars. Indigenous Harbah has no restrictions, and will see wider deployment in PN from Azmat-class (2 ships) to Milgem (IMO one or two ships) to Type 054A's.

Problem is people don't have much trust on the "doctrine" of PN which has consistently shown itself in war to be incapable of even basic logical thinking. Like even to this day no meaningful VLS and air defense. Even with 4 Type 54As, that's just 4 ships with AD. What happens when these are overwhelmed, or kept busy while other ships are saturated?

Its a stupid doctrine, if a doctrine at all. 250 million USD ships without meaningful air defense. Can't explain this way with what ifs in the future.

Pakistan is not getting ships with all these fancy pie-in-the-sky systems like deck launchers. Never happening. Like the F-22Ps, these are going to be show boats during peace time and coffins during a war.

And no, Pakistan Navy nor KSEW will be able to do anything with this supposed TOT and transfer of IP. These are another fantasy lalaland drama. If the past is anything to go by, next ship or submarine will be another TOT effort with cobbling toghether knocked down kits from foreign sources then claiming they can now "build" ships, submarines, starships, death stars, etc.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[Hu Yao]

No, the Amur is very modular submarines that is going to use fuel cell AIP and will be inherently quieter than the 39B’s.

You don't compare the submarine from the uncertain future with those you can get in five years.

For now, no Amur submarine joined Russian Navy, so the capability of that submarine is totally on paper.

Plus PLAN hase already viewed that submarine, and decided not to buy them. Amur 950 is totally for Russian navy, too small for long range combat. Those submarines are good for black sea and off shore fight, but not useful in Oceans.With AIP system Amur have a good endurance, but small body made it unstable in big oceans.

No, the Amur is very modular submarines that is going to use fuel cell AIP and will be inherently quieter than the 39B’s.

You don't compare the submarine from the uncertain future with those you can get in five years.

For now, no Amur submarine joined Russian Navy, so the capability of that submarine is totally on paper.

Plus PLAN hase already viewed that submarine, and decided not to buy them. Amur 950 is totally for Russian navy, too small for long range combat. Those submarines are good for black sea and off shore fight, but not useful in Oceans.With AIP system Amur have a good endurance, but small body made it unstable in big oceans.

 

[帅的一匹]

since Pakistan already induct type 54A for regional air defense, ada for coatal patrol purpose. they wont take Lf 2400 any more. sanction pro and very expensive.

You don't compare the submarine from the uncertain future with those you can get in five years.

For now, no Amur submarine joined Russian Navy, so the capability of that submarine is totally on paper.

Plus PLAN hase already viewed that submarine, and decided not to buy them. Amur 950 is totally for Russian navy, too small for long range combat. Those submarines are good for black sea and off shore fight, but not useful in Oceans.With AIP system Amur have a good endurance, but small body made it unstable in big oceans.



You don't compare the submarine from the uncertain future with those you can get in five years.

For now, no Amur submarine joined Russian Navy, so the capability of that submarine is totally on paper.

Plus PLAN hase already viewed that submarine, and decided not to buy them. Amur 950 is totally for Russian navy, too small for long range combat. Those submarines are good for black sea and off shore fight, but not useful in Oceans.With AIP system Amur have a good endurance, but small body made it unstable in big oceans.

type 39c is a silent beast. our main platform to deter enemy CBG.

 

[Gryphon]

Excerpt from:

T129 ATAK Helicopters and ADA Class Corvettes Sale to Pakistan
by İbrahim SÜNNETÇİ

Pakistan Navy Will Receive 4 ADA Class Corvettes By 2024

On July 5, 2018 the then Turkish Minister of National Defence (MoND) Nurettin CANİKLİ (on July 10, 2018 Mr. CANİKLİ, Minister of National Defence, handed over the duty to General Hulusi AKAR who have appointed to this duty on July 9), disclosed that Turkey has won a tender to provide 4 ADA (MiLGem) Class corvettes for the Pakistan Navy. “This will be largest single export [deal] in the history of the Turkish Defence Industry (due to the fact that until July 13th the sale of 30 T129Bs to the Pakistan Army has not been confirmed neither by the MoND or the SSB),” CANİKLİ said during an official visit to Montenegro without specifying the value of the contract. According to MoND CANİKLİ Ankara and Islamabad have agreed to build two of the warships at Turkey’s Istanbul Naval Shipyard while the remaining two will be constructed in Pakistan’s Karachi Shipyard & Engineering Works Limited (KSEW).

The Karachi-based newspaper the Express Tribune quoted the Pakistani Embassy in Ankara as saying in a statement that the contract includes a transfer of technology as well as a transfer of intellectual proprietary rights for the design of the Pakistani ships.

Shortly after MoND CANİKLİ’s statement, Turkish and Pakistani authorities signed the deal on July 5, for the tender in a ceremony in Rawalpindi attended by the Deputy National Defence Minister and Military Factory and Shipyard Management Incorporated Company (ASFAT AŞ) Board Chairman Şuay ALPAY, Deputy Undersecretary of Ministry of National Defence and ASFAT Deputy Board Chairman Yunus Emre KARAOSMANOĞLU, Deputy Undersecretary of Ministry of National Defence and ASFAT Board Member Ambassador Başat ÖZTÜRK, Istanbul Naval Shipyard Commander Rear Admiral Erdinç YETKİN and Islamabad Ambassador İhsan Mustafa YURDAKUL.

The deal, valued at around Euro1 Billion, was signed by KARAOSMANOĞLU on behalf of Turkey and Pakistani National Defense Ministry Ammunition Production General Manager Major Gen. Arshad MAHMOUD and Karachi Naval Shipyard Commander Rear Admiral Ather SELİM.

The Prime Contractor of the Pakistan Navy ADA Class Corvette Program is the ASFAT AŞ, which is tied to the Turkish MoND. It should be noted that as part of the restructure efforts that were launched following the bloody coup attempt, carried out on July 15, 2016, with an amendment made on the 1st Article of Law on Ministry of National Defence (MoND) military factories and shipyards have been removed from the structure of related Military Departments and General Staff organization and affiliated under the MoND with the State of Emergency Decree Law No. 669 issued on July 31, 2016. In this context Naval Shipyards of the Turkish Naval Forces Command such as Istanbul Naval Shipyard, Gölcük Naval Shipyard and İzmir Naval Shipyard, have been affiliated under the newly established MoND General Directorate of Shipyards (TGM) in 2017. Following the completion of organizational efforts in late 2017 the MoND General Directorate of Shipyards came into operation in January 2018 together with all of its sub-departments. In order to provide benefit from the capabilities of military factories and shipyards, with the State of Emergency Decree Law No. 696, issued on December 24, 2017, the Military Factory and Shipyard Management Incorporated Company (ASFAT AŞ) was established to construct facilities provide development and modernization of military factories and shipyards as well as manufacture, design, research & development and product development activities regarding the requirements of real and legal persons.

Speaking about the Pakistan Navy’s ADA Class Corvettes Project tender process, the then MoND CANİKLİ said:

“This tender will be realized, conducted and finalized by ASFAT company of which its fund is directly under the control of the state and also ASFAT is the head company of military factories and military shipyards established under the Ministry of National Defence. Turkey; the MilGem Class corvette project has taken a quickstep in the international market. Turkey is at the stage of making such great progress due to this shining project right now. We consider this as a Project to provide further contributions to the development and enhancement of subsequent projects.”

According to presentation that was made before the signing ceremony on the Pakistan Navy’s ADA Class corvettes and the tender process, negotiations had started in 2015 and the first purchase demand was made in 2017, whereas the final sale/contractual negotiations had lasted just 12 days. According to presentation the first corvette will be constructed in Turkey, the second one in Pakistan, the third one in Turkey and the fourth one in Pakistan. The first pair (one to be constructed in Turkey and one to be constructed in Pakistan) will join the inventory of the Pakistan Naval Forces in 2023 and the remaining two corvettes in 2024. The first vessel will be constructed in 54 months and the remaining vessels will be constructed in 60, 66 and 72 months, respectively.

According to SSB figures each ADA Class Corvette costs around Euro250 Million to Turkey. However, the Pakistan Navy’s ADA Class corvettes (to be customized to meet Pakistan Navy requirements) will have some differences in terms of propulsion system and weaponry and the Pakistan Navy will procure some systems and subsystems under the Government Furnished Equipment (GFE) approach. This has considerable impact in the decrease of unit price of the Pakistan Navy’s ADA Class corvettes compared to the Turkish Navy’s ADA Class configuration unit price. For example, while the Turkish Navy’s ADA Class corvettes can reach up to 31 knots with their 32MW propulsion power, generated by one gas turbine (LM2500) and two diesel engines (CODAG system configuration), the Pakistan Navy’s ADA Class corvettes will have maximum speed of 26 knots. On the other hand, while the Turkish Navy’s ADA Class corvettes has 10 days of sea endurance with 170 tons of fuel capacity (in 2015 fuel capacity has been increased to 180 tons to gain some few days of endurance) the Pakistan Navy’s ADA Class corvettes will have an endurance capacity of 15 days.

Constructed under the MilGem (National Vessel) Program and representing Turkey’s first locally designed, developed and constructed corvette-type combat vessel, ADA Class corvette is a modern littoral combat warship with indigenous capabilities, using extensive stealth technology in its design. As the Turkish Navy’s newest and most advanced vessels the ADA Class corvettes have a mono-hull, displacement-type hull form. Their overall length is 99.5 meters, maximum beam is 14.4m, displacement is 2,300 tons (2,450 tons with full load) and their range at economic speed is over 3,500 nautical miles. Having an endurance of 10 days without replenishment and 21 days with replenishment the ADA Class corvettes accommodate a 10-ton helicopter (S-70B SeaHawk, with 11 personnel including flight crew and technicians) with platform, hangar and extensive service and handling equipment. With their 32MW propulsion power, generated by one gas turbine (LM2500) and two diesel engines (CODAG system configuration), the ADA Class corvette can achieve a cruising speed of 15 knots with a single diesel (MTU 16V595TE90, driving two shafts), 27 knots with LM2500 gas turbine and 31 knots fully laden with two diesel engines and a gas turbine. The ADA Class corvette is able to execute operations in Sea State 5 (without limit) and in Sea State 6 (with some limits). The vessel is equipped with a GENESIS based indigenous Combat Management System, Thales Nederland’s SMART-S Mk2 E/F-band 3D air and surface surveillance radar, STING EO Mk2 multi-sensor weapon director, Yakamos hull-mounted active/passive sonar system, Aselsan’s AselFLIR-300D electro-optical director and Alper LPI radar, and is armed with an Oto Melara 76/62 Compact gun (with a locally produced stealth shield), a RAM System GmbH (RAMSYS) Mk49 Mod 3 Guided Missile Launching System for the RIM-116 Block 1A/HAS missiles, Aselsan 12.7mm STAMP (2x) turrets, eight RGM-84L Harpoon Block II SSMs, four x 324mm (2-twin) torpedo tubes (for Mk46 Mod 5 and Mk54 LW torpedoes) and an Ultra Electronics Sea Sentor Surface Ship Torpedo Defence (SSTD) System, which is replaced with Aselsan’s HIZIR Torpedo Defence System in 3rd and 4th vessels. The Turkish Navy currently operates two ADA Class corvettes, TCG Heybeliada (F-511) and TCG Buyukada (F-512). Construction of the third and fourth vessels TCG Burgazada (F-513) and TCG Kınalıada (F-514) are continuing at İstanbul Naval Shipyard. Provisional acceptances of TCG Burgazada and TCG Kınalıada Corvettes are scheduled to take place in 2018 (September 27, 2018) and in October 2019 respectively.

Saudi Arabia has also declared formal interest to purchase four ADA Class Corvettes (to be customized to meet Royal Saudi Arabian Navy requirements). STM has been carrying out negotiations with Saudi Arabian authorities for the sale of 4 ADA Class Corvettes since 2016 and preliminary contract for the sale was expected to be inked during IDEF ‘17 Fair but it did not take place. In April 2018 Saudi Arabia signed a Euro1.8 Billion (US$2.2 Billion) framework agreement with Spain to purchase 5 Avante 2200 Corvettes from the Spanish state-owned shipbuilder Navantia, the contract also includes the construction of a naval base facilities. The construction of the vessels will be managed by Cadiz and Ferrol shipyards. Avante 2200 and ADA Class Corvettes are believed to be deployed at different fleets, one in the Eastern Fleet and the other in the Western Fleet

 

[Incog_nito]

Any final design or CGI?

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

The delivery time frame is a bit disappointing 2024 for Corvettes is a bit slow
We should have received 4 ships in 2 years

• 2 Constructed in Pakistan
• 2 Constructed in Turkey

 

[Amigator]

@AZADPAKISTAN2009 I know it's silly to ask as it would have already mentioned in the current thread somewhere, Is ADA class have VLS? If yes then how many tubes?