Pakistan in talks for 4 Ada Class Corvettes, T-129 Helicopters & modernization of agosta fleet

[tarrar]

Good but PN needs bigger & advance navy ships. Type 55 & as well as battle cruisers, both will boost the power of PN.

 

[tarrar]

Good but PN needs bigger & advance navy ships. Type 55 & as well as battle cruisers, both will boost the power of PN.

 

[Malik Alashter]

Weapins are really waist of money

like the T-129 coting 50 million thats a lot because a manpad that cost 50 grand can bring it down

Pakistan should think of mainly AD systems like S-400 patriot these systems can be of deterrence to the nations ATGM even the most sophisticated one is great for their defense and coastal defense system all these in enough numbers for deterrence while the country is rebuilding itself when the budget is big and not affecting the people then go for the best.

 

[xyxmt]

 

[ZY-CN-CA]

How much about 054A?who know

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

100 Meter ship , a great addition to Pakistan Navy, we can configure it based on our needs
Just little bit shorter then the OHP ship we had

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

There's a subtle difference with the Turkish MILGEM and what the PN has bought thus far from France and China.

The Turks had designed the MILGEM around COTS. They don't own any of the inputs (e.g. steel, engines or the composite superstructure), but they own the original design and integration expertise necessary to modify the ship at will.

However, the inputs are most imported from Germany, the US, UK, etc.

If STM at least transfers the necessary know-how to KSEW/MTC to integrate the PN's choice of subsystems and weapons (i.e. an original configuration), that could be big.

We lament about how MTC/KSEW lack expertise to do an original configuration. Well, STM has literally built its business on that ability, what if ToT here means teaching original design and configuration (albeit limited to the MILGEM)?

Like I have said before, I give only opinions. My opinion is that Pakistan still does not understand ToT. This should be ToK, and design offices should be setup. If this was a ToK all ships should be build here, with the deletion program where fourth ship is 50% deleted. A country that does not even have a steel mill, is building ships?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Like I have said before, I give only opinions. My opinion is that Pakistan still does not understand ToT. This should be ToK, and design offices should be setup. If this was a ToK all ships should be build here, with the deletion program where fourth ship is 50% deleted. A country that does not even have a steel mill, is building ships?

I agree, the term 'ToT' is used loosely in Pakistan. They sold the nation on being able to build Agosta 90Bs and F-22Ps, yet rely on the OEM for KoMs and basically confuse those who don't know better (99.989%) when they ink deals for new ships. 100% agreed.

You will agree that in most cases, the PN buys mostly the package the OEM offers, right? E.g. if CSIC says you can only get the S26 submarine in Stirling AIP made in China, the PN will just get the Stirling AIP made in China.

So let me ask you ... what if an OEM like Turkey comes in with a design (e.g. MILGEM) that doesn't force you into buying a specific engine from Germany, or sourcing steel from a specific company in France, etc?

That's basically what the MILGEM is... Turkey doesn't make any of the core inputs for its ships (besides electronics I guess). Be it the steel, engines, composites, etc, it's all coming from Europe or the US. But Turkey had chosen each of its suppliers and, in turn, engineered the MILGEM to handle the inputs it had selected.

What if the ToT being described by the PN, especially the 'transfer intellectual property rights' stuff has to do with that aspect (i.e. learning proper design, integration, etc)? For example, the MILGEM right now is powered by the GE LM2500 gas turbine; don't you think it's possible for Turkey to give Pakistan "ToT" to figure out how to integrate a MTU CODAD configuration instead?

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

I agree, the term 'ToT' is used loosely in Pakistan. They sold the nation on being able to build Agosta 90Bs and F-22Ps, yet rely on the OEM for KoMs and basically confuse those who don't know better (99.989%) when they ink deals for new ships. 100% agreed.

You will agree that in most cases, the PN buys mostly the package the OEM offers, right? E.g. if CSIC says you can only get the S26 submarine in Stirling AIP made in China, the PN will just get the Stirling AIP made in China.

So let me ask you ... what if an OEM like Turkey comes in with a design (e.g. MILGEM) that doesn't force you into buying a specific engine from Germany, or sourcing steel from a specific company in France, etc?

That's basically what the MILGEM is... Turkey doesn't make any of the core inputs for its ships (besides electronics I guess). Be it the steel, engines, composites, etc, it's all coming from Europe or the US. But Turkey had chosen each of its suppliers and, in turn, engineered the MILGEM to handle the inputs it had selected.

What if the ToT being described by the PN, especially the 'transfer intellectual property rights' stuff has to do with that aspect (i.e. learning proper design, integration, etc)? For example, the MILGEM right now is powered by the GE LM2500 gas turbine; don't you think it's possible for Turkey to give Pakistan "ToT" to figure out how to integrate a MTU CODAD configuration instead?

Beta aisay nahi hota....

All these parameters are well set by designers and builders, and put in contract. Contracts want responsibility put on one party, and things are not left open ended.

 

[Maarkhoor]

Beta aisay nahi hota....

All these parameters are well set by designers and builders, and put in contract. Contracts want responsibility put on one party, and things are not left open ended.

Sir what was the reason behind not choosing VLS one's ? don't you think it is required? and would boost out capability at sea.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Beta aisay nahi hota....

All these parameters are well set by designers and builders, and put in contract. Contracts want responsibility put on one party, and things are not left open ended.

1. I'm not referring to this contract. I understand the design is frozen and it would basically amount to excessive NRE fees to demand substantial changes.

2. Let's say 10 years down the line the PN wants a new surface warship. Can KSEW/MTC (with STM's support) modify the design of the MILGEM so that it can incorporate different inputs (e.g. MTU CODAD instead of GE CODAG)?

Note: STM already has MILGEM-based designs (on paper) that have significant changes, e.g. LF-2400 (it has CODAD and VLS).

 

[cabatli_53]

There's a subtle difference with the Turkish MILGEM and what the PN has bought thus far from France and China.

The Turks had designed the MILGEM around COTS. They don't own any of the inputs (e.g. steel, engines or the composite superstructure), but they own the original design and integration expertise necessary to modify the ship at will.

However, the inputs are most imported from Germany, the US, UK, etc.

That's basically what the MILGEM is... Turkey doesn't make any of the core inputs for its ships (besides electronics I guess). Be it the steel, engines, composites, etc, it's all coming from Europe or the US.

I think It is needed to correct some of your “truths” about Turkish Naval industry which is actually false.

• Military grade high resistant steels for Milgem have been manufactured by ErDemir in Turkey.
• Bitts, windlass, davits and many hydraolic/mechanic systems are manufactured by Turkish small scale subcontractors and smees
• Rudder and its auxiliary hydraulic equipments are manufactured by Gürdesan and Data.
• Integrated bridge/engine system, situation awarenes softwares for better handling along with gyro compass, wecdis/ecdis, navigation radars, AIS are developed by Turkish Institutes.
• Combat management system solutions called Genesis are being applied for all naval warships including Milgem platform. New generation CMS called Genesis Advent is revealed and applied for new produced warships.
• Milgem main radar Smart-S Mk2 is original Thales product but Milgem uses Aselsan produced Smart radar with Aselsan developed TR modules performing superior than original Smart radar.
• British SeaSentor torpedo defence system have been replaced with Hizir. It is proven that Hizir performs superior than British equivalent with stopping German DM2A4 torpedo in trials.
• 76mm main gun is manufactured by MKE under the licence of OtoMelare.
• THales fire control radar is going to be replaced with new developed Aselsan FCR called AKR-D BlkB1 120+km which is in trial phase at present.
• Sonar system with all subcomponents wet/dry end sections are manufactured by Meteksan. Milgem has Yakamos-1 sonar, While Istanbul class frigates will receive the newest variants of this sonar called Yakamos-3. Barbaros class frigates will be upgraded with Yakamos-2.
• Degaussing system to minimize electromagnetic zone around ship, underwater telefon, underwater sounding sonar, IR signal measurements, Electromagnetic interference, Electromagnetic Compatibility, Acoustic signal measurements and classification of ship thanks to TurkLoyd have been done in Turkey.

 

[-------]

I think It is needed to correct some of truths about Turkish Naval industry which is actually false.

• Military grade high resistant steels for Milgem have been manufactured by ErDemir in Turkey.
• Bitts, windlass, davits and many hydraolic/mechanic systems are manufactured by Turkish subcontractors.
• Rudder and its auxiliary hydraulic equipments are manufactured by Gürdesan and Data.
• Integrated bridge/engine system, situation awarenes softwares for better handling along with cyro compass, wecdis/ecdis, navigation radars, AIS are developed by Turkish Institutes.
• Combat management system solutions called Genesis are being applied for all naval warships including Milgem platform. New generation CMS called Genesis Advent is revealed and applied for new produced warships.
• Milgem main radar Smart-S Mk2 is original Thales product but Milgem uses Aselsan produced Smart radar with Aselsan developed TR modules performing superior than original Smart radar.
• British SeaSentor torpedo defence system have been replaced with Hizir. It is proven that Hizir performs superior than British equivalent with stopping German DM2A4 torpedo in trials.
• 76mm main gun is manufactured by MKE under the licence of OtoMelare.
• THales fire control radar is going to be replaced with new developed Aselsan FCR called AKR-D BlkB1 120+km which is in trial phase at present.
• Sonar system with all subcomponents wet/dry end sections are manufactured by Meteksan. Milgem has Yakamos-1 sonar, While Istanbul class frigates will receive the newest variants of this sonar called Yakamos-3. Barbaros class frigates will be upgraded with Yakamos-2.
• Degaussing system to minimize electromagnetic zone around ship, underwater telefon, underwater sounding sonar, IR signal measurements, Electromagnetic interference, Electromagnetic Compatibility, Acoustic signal measurements and classification of ship thanks to TurkLoyd have been done in Turkey.

Also to correct @Bilal Khan (Quwa) , the superstructure of MILGEM is steel not composite. However, it lined with composite armor developed by Nurol Teknoloji.

TABYA®

Tabya® class solutions are designed especially for naval vessels and in order to preserve its performance for long years even under the harshest sea conditions with its special configuration.With its light-weight, high ballistic performance, quick and easy installation these new generation armor solutions can be easily installed on any type of frigate, assult boat or landing ships. Tabya® class armor solutions are used for the protection of particularly the control room, captain’s bridge, critical cabling areas and weapon/cannons rooms.

Tabya® can be applied as Add-On in order to increase the avilable protection level of the platforms and can also be structurally applied.



Mevcut platformların koruma seviyelerini yükseltmek için eklemeli (add-on) olarak uygulanabileceği gibi Tabya® sınıfı zırhlar yapısal olarak da kullanılabilmektedir

TABYA® -E01
Ballistic Standards: MIL-PR F-46103 Type 3, Class 2C, Stanag 2920, Stanag 4569
Weight: 44 – 110 kg/m2(varies depending on being Add-On)
Thichness: 20 – 60 mm

TABYA® -E10
Ballistic Standards: MIL-PR F-46103 Type 3, Class 3, Stanag 2920, Stanag 4569
Weight: 60 – 130 kg/m2(varies depending on being Add-On)
Thichness: 24 – 70 mm

TABYA® -E20
Ballistic Standards: MIL-PR F-46103 Type 4, Class 1 and 2, Stanag 2920, Stanag 4569
Weight: 60 – 130 kg/m2(varies depending on being Add-On)
Thichness: 45 – 110 mm



Tabya® type armors are in accordance with the below-listed standards in addition to ballistic standards:

In accordance with MILSTD-810 and MILPRF-46103:
Temperature Cycling: From -55 oC to +85 oC
Humidty Test: 48 Hours, 5 cycles, maximum, 60 oC and 95% humidty.
Vibration: Varies depending on the frequency table of the platorm to be used
Incombustibilty: According to FAR 25.855 or 25.853
Salt: According to method 509.2

https://www.nurolteknoloji.com/en/savunma-urunleri/naval-vessels-protection-products.html

@cabatli_53 bro, when MILGEM project started the aim was to have 60% indigenous input. Since 1st and 2nd ships the indigenous input has increased significantly. Do you know or have any idea on the current Indigenous input % wise on 3rd and 4th ships ?

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Sir what was the reason behind not choosing VLS one's ? don't you think it is required? and would boost out capability at sea.

VLS is already chosen for Air Defence Frigate, for which a new DESRON will be raised. These ships are to replace Type-21s of DESRON 25 as F22 replaced Leanders of DESRON 18.

 

[cabatli_53]

Also to correct @Bilal Khan (Quwa) , the superstructure of MILGEM is steel not composite. However, it lined with composite armor developed by Nurol Teknoloji.

TABYA®

Tabya® class solutions are designed especially for naval vessels and in order to preserve its performance for long years even under the harshest sea conditions with its special configuration.With its light-weight, high ballistic performance, quick and easy installation these new generation armor solutions can be easily installed on any type of frigate, assult boat or landing ships. Tabya® class armor solutions are used for the protection of particularly the control room, captain’s bridge, critical cabling areas and weapon/cannons rooms.

Tabya® can be applied as Add-On in order to increase the avilable protection level of the platforms and can also be structurally applied.



Mevcut platformların koruma seviyelerini yükseltmek için eklemeli (add-on) olarak uygulanabileceği gibi Tabya® sınıfı zırhlar yapısal olarak da kullanılabilmektedir

TABYA® -E01
Ballistic Standards: MIL-PR F-46103 Type 3, Class 2C, Stanag 2920, Stanag 4569
Weight: 44 – 110 kg/m2(varies depending on being Add-On)
Thichness: 20 – 60 mm

TABYA® -E10
Ballistic Standards: MIL-PR F-46103 Type 3, Class 3, Stanag 2920, Stanag 4569
Weight: 60 – 130 kg/m2(varies depending on being Add-On)
Thichness: 24 – 70 mm

TABYA® -E20
Ballistic Standards: MIL-PR F-46103 Type 4, Class 1 and 2, Stanag 2920, Stanag 4569
Weight: 60 – 130 kg/m2(varies depending on being Add-On)
Thichness: 45 – 110 mm



Tabya® type armors are in accordance with the below-listed standards in addition to ballistic standards:

In accordance with MILSTD-810 and MILPRF-46103:
Temperature Cycling: From -55 oC to +85 oC
Humidty Test: 48 Hours, 5 cycles, maximum, 60 oC and 95% humidty.
Vibration: Varies depending on the frequency table of the platorm to be used
Incombustibilty: According to FAR 25.855 or 25.853
Salt: According to method 509.2

https://www.nurolteknoloji.com/en/savunma-urunleri/naval-vessels-protection-products.html

@cabatli_53 bro, when MILGEM project started the aim was to have 60% indigenous input. Since 1st and 2nd ships the indigenous input has increased significantly. Do you know or have any idea on the current Indigenous input % wise on 3rd and 4th ships ?

Not officially given ant info bro but It is possible to increase the national contribution up to %85-90. BMC Power is established to develop diesel engines not only for land vehicles but also naval platforms and they informed about some diesel engine projects up to 5000hp to power up naval projects but priority is to develop 1000 and 1500hp SSM supports so It will take time for their naval engines to be operational so we may put propulsion units out of our calculation for now.