Pakistan has been offered the Chinese 4th generation J-11 (SU27)

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Exactly my point.

Pak is gonna induct 200+ JF-17, 50+ F-16, 50+ J-10, all in the next few years plus upgrades to other fighters. Along with that PAF will have to build infrastucture to maintain and also provide round the clock training to match india's flight training.
All this while the country is reeling under pressure due to the war on terror, internal strife and the effects of the earthquake. I mean, can PAK handle the costs.

Not to mention the 5 Eeriye AEW&C, possible Sino-Pak AWACS and setting up a net centric force built around those assets.

The costs can be handled provided political stability comes about, and since all of this will be phased, setting up the infrastructure will not be an issue.

That is the question now - political stability.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Exactly my point.

Pak is gonna induct 200+ JF-17, 50+ F-16, 50+ J-10, all in the next few years plus upgrades to other fighters. Along with that PAF will have to build infrastucture to maintain and also provide round the clock training to match india's flight training.
All this while the country is reeling under pressure due to the war on terror, internal strife and the effects of the earthquake. I mean, can PAK handle the costs.

NO...
defence budget is untouched even after political and short term economic crises. everything will be due on date.
and in fact if American MRCA is not chosen by india Pakistan will have upper hand interms of AMRAAM technical advantage.
Pakistan defence export is also growing rapidly and i believe pakistan defence income is more then indian at over $500 million annum and likely to be over $700 million next year due to potential JF-17s customers.

 

[fatman17]

NO...
defence budget is untouched even after political and short term economic crises. everything will be due on date.
and in fact if American MRCA is not chosen by india Pakistan will have upper hand interms of AMRAAM technical advantage.
Pakistan defence export is also growing rapidly and i believe pakistan defence income is more then indian at over $500 million annum and likely to be over $700 million next year due to potential JF-17s customers.[/QUOTE]

your comment on defence exports is mere speculation.

 

[Keysersoze]

Exactly my point.

Pak is gonna induct 200+ JF-17, 50+ F-16, 50+ J-10, all in the next few years plus upgrades to other fighters. Along with that PAF will have to build infrastucture to maintain and also provide round the clock training to match india's flight training.
All this while the country is reeling under pressure due to the war on terror, internal strife and the effects of the earthquake. I mean, can PAK handle the costs.

I love the comment about flight training. It took 20 years for you to get the hawk ordered and even the Indian media were saying that the Mig 21 crashes were due to poor flight training. The PAF has never had any problem with infrastructure or maintaining aircraft which the IAF cannot claim.

Oh and there is plenty of information that is not in the public domain about the PAF's capability. Trust me none of your points were valid in it. I was kinda impressed when I heard it.

Oh and the SD-10 was tested in 2005


The other potential applications for the SD-10/PL-12 in Chinese service are on the Chengdu J-10 next-generation combat aircraft now under development, perhaps the upgraded Shenyang J-8M 'Finback' and the CATIC FC-1/Super 7 lightweight multirole combat aircraft being developed jointly by China and Pakistan. During 2001 officials at Pakistan's National Development Complex confirmed that the NDC was conducting study/development work on a new active-radar missile programme, a possible reference to the SD-10. Certainly the most prominent 'public appearance' of the SD-10 to date has been on the full-size mock-up of the FC-1/Super 7. Pakistan has established a national production line for the Italian Galileo Avionica (formerly FIAR) Grifo 7 multimode fire-control radar at its Kamra Avionics and Radar Facility. A version of the Grifo radar (Grifo S7) is being developed for the FC-1/Super 7, and the Grifo is already fitted to Pakistan's Chengdu F-7PGs. In July 2002 Galileo Avionica confirmed that it would be offering the latest development of the Grifo radar, the Grifo 2000/16, as a candidate radar for the J-10 once its entered the production phase. Galileo Avionics describes the Grifo 2000/16 (originally designed as a radar for F-16 upgrades) as a modern, modular, multimode radar with enhanced air-to-air capabilities that is compatible with modern BVR missiles.

The above is from Janes air launched weapons 2003

 

[nitesh]

I love the comment about flight training. It took 20 years for you to get the hawk ordered and even the Indian media were saying that the Mig 21 crashes were due to poor flight training. The PAF has never had any problem with infrastructure or maintaining aircraft which the IAF cannot claim.

Oh and there is plenty of information that is not in the public domain about the PAF's capability. Trust me none of your points were valid in it. I was kinda impressed when I heard it.

Oh and the SD-10 was tested in 2005


The other potential applications for the SD-10/PL-12 in Chinese service are on the Chengdu J-10 next-generation combat aircraft now under development, perhaps the upgraded Shenyang J-8M 'Finback' and the CATIC FC-1/Super 7 lightweight multirole combat aircraft being developed jointly by China and Pakistan. During 2001 officials at Pakistan's National Development Complex confirmed that the NDC was conducting study/development work on a new active-radar missile programme, a possible reference to the SD-10. Certainly the most prominent 'public appearance' of the SD-10 to date has been on the full-size mock-up of the FC-1/Super 7. Pakistan has established a national production line for the Italian Galileo Avionica (formerly FIAR) Grifo 7 multimode fire-control radar at its Kamra Avionics and Radar Facility. A version of the Grifo radar (Grifo S7) is being developed for the FC-1/Super 7, and the Grifo is already fitted to Pakistan's Chengdu F-7PGs. In July 2002 Galileo Avionica confirmed that it would be offering the latest development of the Grifo radar, the Grifo 2000/16, as a candidate radar for the J-10 once its entered the production phase. Galileo Avionics describes the Grifo 2000/16 (originally designed as a radar for F-16 upgrades) as a modern, modular, multimode radar with enhanced air-to-air capabilities that is compatible with modern BVR missiles.

The above is from Janes air launched weapons 2003

Well key saying that there was absolutely no problem with PAF regarding aircrafts is not that is digestible.

Check this:
Pakistan Air Force aircraft crashes_English_Xinhua

 

[Keysersoze]

Well key saying that there was absolutely no problem with PAF regarding aircrafts is not that is digestible.

Check this:
Pakistan Air Force aircraft crashes_English_Xinhua

Nitesh I have never claimed that the PAF is invulnerable. However you have to understand that for a Indian member to mock the PAF's training program is not on.

Was it not a issue for the IAF? And the reasoning behind the procurement of the Hawk Albeit 20 years late?

 

[nitesh]

Nitesh I have never claimed that the PAF is invulnerable. However you have to understand that for a Indian member to mock the PAF's training program is not on.

Was it not a issue for the IAF? And the reasoning behind the procurement of the Hawk Albeit 20 years late?

Well, I dont think he was trying to mock the paf program. But let us rest this topic here only. Cos this has already derailed the thread.

Regarding the delay, typical Indian babudom and there pathetic attitude towards the defense readiness. Nothing can be done about it.

 

[Keysersoze]

My last word on it....you are quite right of course And I will no longer derail this thread. However the gentleman above was very clear in his intentions and I will not stand for it.



BAE joins IAF blame game on Hawk spares
Huma Siddiqui
Posted online: Thursday , June 05, 2008 at 2323 hrs IST


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New Delhi, Jun 4 Even as Indian Air Force cries foul over spares supply by its UK suppliers, BAE Systems has put a question mark on the optimal utilisation of Hawk advance jet trainers fleet by the services. Sources talking to FE on condition of anonymity said that, "There will be serviceability problems. The Indian Air Forcedid not order the required spares until very late and not all those spares have been received yet because of long lead times for manufacturing."

The supplementary spares package which contains 1400 lines of spares, was submitted in February 2006 and was not contracted until January 2008 despite repeated reminders, sources said. This follows claims by the IAF there are problems with servicability of the aircraft as the UK based BAE Systems is not fulfilling its commitment of supplying of modern spare parts for the aircraft.

Sources also revealed that the Hawk AJTis just being flown by Indian Air Force for merely a few hours a week. “The Bidar air force station in Karnataka which is currently getting ready to train the IAF cadets is hardly flying the aircraft for more than a few hours a week. So, how can there be a question of serviceability, when the machines are not being used,"sources pointed out.

The report of the court of inquiry that was ordered by the Indian Air Force (IAF) into the mishap which led to the British Hawk AJT, valued around Rs 85 crore, being completely destroyed, is expected to come out with its report shortly.

BAE joins IAF blame game on Hawk spares

 

[p2prada]

I love the comment about flight training. It took 20 years for you to get the hawk ordered and even the Indian media were saying that the Mig 21 crashes were due to poor flight training.

Politics is a sticky topic in india and pak. we were lucky to even get the hawks.

Well, u give a rookie one of the toughest planes to fly which has not been serviced or maintained properly. End result is the crashes. So, u can add serviceability and maintainance along with human error.

The PAF has never had any problem with infrastructure or maintaining aircraft which the IAF cannot claim.

Can u tell me on how many sorties have your 34 F-16s left the ground since 1998. Pak has only started receiving upgraded F-16s.

Oh and there is plenty of information that is not in the public domain about the PAF's capability. Trust me none of your points were valid in it. I was kinda impressed when I heard it.

Hiding behind the iron curtain is impressive by itself. I have to obvioulsy point out the short comings released to the general public. And from what I know, PAF has no experience whatsoever when it comes to twin engine fighters.

India has decades of experience on VTOL(read sea harriers) and the TVC since the last 5 years. Even China cannot claim this. This also includes carrier aviation.
India has also spent billions getting new equipment, especially simulators, since a decade.

So, what i meant was PAF lacks training capability for newer generation engines with fighters which have more moving parts(read MKI) "as of now."
What i was trying to prove is that "Can PAF handle newer aircraft, than the ones i mentioned, and can also provide training and maintainance to a new fleet noting her present political and economic condition."

Because by the time PAF start training with newer aircraft, india would have moved on to the fifth gen (read PAKFA)

 

[p2prada]

Well, I dont think he was trying to mock the paf program.

I m definitely not mocking the present PAF program. none of the fighters in PAF inventory are as complex as twin engine jets like MKI or the F-15. But listing my concerns on the validity of the present program on future aquisitions that can be hampered by budget considerations.
Also note that growth in pak military budget has been put on hold as of now, while there is speculation that the indian defence budget may almost double.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Can u tell me on how many sorties have your 34 F-16s left the ground since 1998. Pak has only started receiving upgraded F-16s.

Pakistani F-16s reach 100,000 accident free flight hours
October 4, 2005 (by Asif Shamim) - A three-member delegation of Pratt & Whitney called on Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Saadat, Chief of the Air Staff Pakistan Air Force at Air Headquarters to present a plaque to the Chief of the Air Staff in recognition of flying the F-16, for over 100,000 accident-free flight hours.
Lloyd W. "Fig" Newton, executive vice president, presented a plaque to the Chief of the Air Staff in recognition of flying the F-16, for over 100,000 accident-free flight hours.

They also commended the maintenance, quality control and flight safety standards of the PAF, which made this achievement possible.

Retired Gen. Lloyd Newton, along with Gen. (R) William J Begert, Vice President and Warren Boley, Vice President, remained with Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Sadaat, Chief of Air Staff for some time and discussed matters pertaining to mutual and professional interest.

So from 1994-2008 32 pakistani F-16s have clocked over 140,000 accident-free flight hours! unfortunately you are feed of with too much bahratraksha anti-pak nonsense thing and its very hard for you guys to swallow these facts...

 

[blain2]

I m definitely not mocking the present PAF program. none of the fighters in PAF inventory are as complex as twin engine jets like MKI or the F-15. But listing my concerns on the validity of the present program on future aquisitions that can be hampered by budget considerations.
Also note that growth in pak military budget has been put on hold as of now, while there is speculation that the indian defence budget may almost double.

Pakistan has flown twin engined aircraft in the past and continues to do so. F-6 and A-5 are both twin-engined. In terms of complexity, in the indo-Pakistan context, you cannot compare the one true Electric jet to anything that IAF has until now. This being the F-16. Overall the F-16's engineering support requirements are more complex than most of what is flying in the IAF.

Engineering wise, maintaining F-16 is just as complex as the F-15 (F-15 requiring more work owing to its two engines and size, however the complexity of technology is about the same....thank God for FRU and LRUs).

Alos the above post by March23 does not take into account the massive effort expended during the Afghan war (1984-88). PAF flew the hell out of the F-16s and none of the aircraft were lost due to recurring maintenance issues.

 

[Imran Khan]

sir paf never use F6 this what sir murad say but yes A5 is also paf use F15 of RSAF

 

[Keysersoze]

sir paf never use F6 this what sir murad say but yes A5 is also paf use F15 of RSAF

Imran, the PAF DID use the Chinese F-6 (It is also known as the J-6)

You are confusing it with the F-5 which is American.

 

[blain2]

sir paf never use F6 this what sir murad say but yes A5 is also paf use F15 of RSAF

As Keys has mentioned, you may be confusing the aircraft designations. The venerable "Chakka" (F-6) was the backbone of the PAF for many decades.

See this for S&G
Pakistan Military Consortium :: www.PakDef.info