Pakistan gaining military edge over India

[Frankenstein]

Well ,when i saw the reasons supporting the thread title,i was just like BAH!
2 minutes wasted.

Yaar,again i ll have to say,we are 2nd largest army,4th largest Air force 5th largest Navy and second fastest growing nation,do we really need to compare Pakistan with us?

So you need to compare yourself with china??, geme a break

 

[Frankenstein]

In some point Indian military have an edge over Pakistan and in some Pakistani military have an edge over India, but saying one military has a total edge over other is a stretch

 

[Archie]

A few things need to be made clear
1: This is not a genuine article , it was either written by Leviza him/herself or was copy posted from some other forum most likely the sister site of PDF

2: While it is true that we have not prchased a new artillery gun since 1987 , but we have purchased 720 M46 Howitzers from Russia , and have also ordered 340 more . Now these are not 155mm guns but smaller 139 /145 mm , but they were purchased quite cheaply from surplus Russian stocks ,currently they are undergoing upgrade into 155mm guns with range of 39 km , tender for this upgrade was awarded to Soltam of Israel , which has till now upgraded 180 guns and has provided upgrade kits for 400 guns.India also operate 410 Bofors Guns which are 155mm and will be undergoing upgrade through BAE systems . Government has placed an order for 145 M777 ultra light howitzer from US , and the contract has been aproved by US Congress ,deal will be formally signed when OBAMA pays a visit
and as far as i remember even pakistan acquired M-109 through surplus US military stock.

3: As far as UAVs are concerned , to say that Pakistan made Falco are better than Israeli Heron , Searcher , Harpy or for that matter even indian made Nishant and Lakshay Drone , well is a gross over statement
Plus Pakistan maintain a fleet of 60 UAVs compared to the following for indian arm forces .
Army
Nishant India reconnaissance UAV 18+
IAI Searcher II Israel reconnaissance UAV 50+
IAI Heron II Israel reconnaissance UAV 100+
Air force
Lakshya PTA India Pilotless Target Aircraft (PTA) 10

IAI Harpy Israel Fire & Forget Radar Emitter Destroyer 10
IAI SearcherII Israel 100+
IAI Heron II Israel Reconnaissance UAV 25+

Navy
IAI Heron II Israel UAV 12
IAI Searcher MkII Israel UAV 18

4: As far as fighter jets are concerned , almost all the crashes in the past few years have been of older Mig21 and Mig27 which are being phased out , India in the last 2 years has retired 76 Mig21 while they have inducted 44 Su30Mki during that period , while this has resulted in sqd stength falling from 34 sqd to 32 sqd , but it has not affected the fire power of the airforce
Another 54 Mig21 will retire by 2012 being replaced by 40 Su30mki and 20 Lca Tejas
Now as far as Pakistan Upgrading its F16 fleet , well they presently operate 45 f16 and have just taken delivery of 3 F16 Blk52 while remaining 15 will be inducted by end of year , they currently have 42 older Blk15/25 F16 which they will be upgrading to Blk40 standard not Blk 50 as has been assumed becoz there are certain airframe modifications between Blk40 and Blk52
Over all PAF has some 430 Fighters comprising 22 Sqds out of which around 73 aircrafts (48 F16 + 25 JF17) are actually 4th generation
Compared to IAF which has around 650 Fighters comprising 32 Sqds out of which around 237 aircrafts(124 SU30mki + 62 Mig29 + 51 Mirage 2000) are 4th or 4+ generation

5: As far as helicopters are concerned
Pak army has 36
Paf has 38
Pak navy has 24
compared to indian arm forces which operate a total of 650+ helicopters(Army 180 , IAF 314 , Navy 127 , Coast guard 23 , BSF 17)

6: Now regarding the comment on Arihant , well no submarine is launched with an online nuclear reactor , coz that can be dangerous
and people expect navy to give a guided tour of its most secretive project to the public , well the reactor went online in Feb 2010 , 8 months after the launch , when the submarine was ready for 18 month sea trial.
Add to that india was recently handed over the Akula II Nuclear sub , which has set sail for india , to be inducted formally in october

 

[xyz]

I would appeals mods to terminate this thread

there is no technical discussion here ...
kindly ask them not to post such threads when cannot be maintained at a technical level. You will find only 1-2 posts worht of reading.
This is for both Indians and Pakistanis.

 

[Leviza]

I would appeals mods to terminate this thread

there is no technical discussion here ...
kindly ask them not to post such threads when cannot be maintained at a technical level. You will find only 1-2 posts worht of reading.
This is for both Indians and Pakistanis.

if you guys cannot discuss anything in positive manner then its not the thread fault. so there is no point in terminating this thread
i think mods need to IP ban those people who are discussing things out of topic.

 

[SHHHHH]

While India keeps cancelling and re-issuing RFPs endlessly, Pakistan is forging ahead on a war footing. They are ahead of India in the following:-

1. Howitzers

India has been dilly-dallying over artillery guns for close to 30 years since the Bofors scam. Pakistan has inducted U.S. made M-109 howitzers.

Indian Express: United Nations data reveal that delivery of the M-109 A5 self-propelled artillery guns took place last year. The guns were transferred under the US Foreign Military Financing (FMF) programme that was granted to Pakistan for the fight against militant groups on its border with Afghanistan. Experts say these M-109 A5 155 mm howitzers give Pakistan a definite conventional edge over the Indian Army that is years away from induction of similar systems. Full news

2. UAVs
The game changers in the ****** war are the future of any credible Air Force. But PSU infighting delayed India's plan for 4 years. Recent articles on 8ak noted that Pakistan has started drone production with Selex Galileo.

3. Fighter Jets
While our military aircraft crash at a rate of 1.5 a month means a constant grounding of fleets (the Sea Harrier fleet is grounded after last weeks crash), Pakistan is upgrading their F-16s to the latest Block C/D with a little help from Turkey. Russia has also given the go ahead to China to give Pakistan the engines for the JF series fighter aircraft.


4. Motivation
The Pakistani people are united, not by their nationality, but by their religion and their constantly-re-inforced-by-the-mullahs/government view on Kashmir. Add to this the combat experience they are gaining in the ****** war and one can see that they would be a formidable force.

5. Funds
While India's budget is larger thanks to a better economy, Pakistan gets billions in equipment and training from the U.S., China and Islamic sympathisers like Saudi Arabia.

The list could go on to include helicopters, missiles, nuclear weapons. But at least India has the Arihant submarine. Well not exactly. Strategy Page article says that the Arihant was launched without a working reactor to scam the public in to believing that the government has something to show after sinking billions in to those projects.

.carefully read the reasons:Howitzers,UAV's.fighter jets(Which India has way more than Pakistan and of better capabilities,biggest one MOTIVATION,is it a serious discussion really?FUNDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!,gah,do we need to compare funds?

---------- Post added at 03:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:40 PM ----------

While India keeps cancelling and re-issuing RFPs endlessly, Pakistan is forging ahead on a war footing. They are ahead of India in the following:-

1. Howitzers

India has been dilly-dallying over artillery guns for close to 30 years since the Bofors scam. Pakistan has inducted U.S. made M-109 howitzers.

Indian Express: United Nations data reveal that delivery of the M-109 A5 self-propelled artillery guns took place last year. The guns were transferred under the US Foreign Military Financing (FMF) programme that was granted to Pakistan for the fight against militant groups on its border with Afghanistan. Experts say these M-109 A5 155 mm howitzers give Pakistan a definite conventional edge over the Indian Army that is years away from induction of similar systems. Full news

2. UAVs
The game changers in the ****** war are the future of any credible Air Force. But PSU infighting delayed India's plan for 4 years. Recent articles on 8ak noted that Pakistan has started drone production with Selex Galileo.

3. Fighter Jets
While our military aircraft crash at a rate of 1.5 a month means a constant grounding of fleets (the Sea Harrier fleet is grounded after last weeks crash), Pakistan is upgrading their F-16s to the latest Block C/D with a little help from Turkey. Russia has also given the go ahead to China to give Pakistan the engines for the JF series fighter aircraft.


4. Motivation
The Pakistani people are united, not by their nationality, but by their religion and their constantly-re-inforced-by-the-mullahs/government view on Kashmir. Add to this the combat experience they are gaining in the ****** war and one can see that they would be a formidable force.

5. Funds
While India's budget is larger thanks to a better economy, Pakistan gets billions in equipment and training from the U.S., China and Islamic sympathisers like Saudi Arabia.

The list could go on to include helicopters, missiles, nuclear weapons. But at least India has the Arihant submarine. Well not exactly. Strategy Page article says that the Arihant was launched without a working reactor to scam the public in to believing that the government has something to show after sinking billions in to those projects.

.carefully read the reasons:Howitzers,UAV's.fighter jets(Which India has way more than Pakistan and of better capabilities,biggest one MOTIVATION,is it a serious discussion really?FUNDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!,gah,do we need to compare funds?
Moreover,isn't the orange media fact coming in now?

 

[Peshwa]

And how did you arrive to this conclusion that Pakistan is only able to fight against India for a week , you might call other fanboys but this a pure fanboy claim from your side my friend. I don't know if you are aware of this but Pakistan Army maintains 45 days worth of supplies in its reserves in case of a war. You would be surprised how secure and efficient our supply lines are for our Eastern borders; the GHQ is not full of idiots, our Generals have learned their mistakes and have made sure that Pakistan Armed Forces don't run out supplies.

Gone are the days of long and static wars that were fought in World War 1 and 2, the next war between Pakistan and India is going to be short but severely intense. Don't worry about Pakistan running out of fuel and ammunition, this is just pure Indian fanboy wet dreams. The IAF and IN are no doubt superior than their counterparts but the question is do they have complete superiority. When IAF crosses over the border they will be fighting under our rules and under our own skies, this has been discussed many times and that is why the IAF has never dared to cross the border. Same thing for the IN, PN can obviously not engage them in the open seas but they are more than capable enough off defending own shores. We have enough ships, subs, P3's and Anti Ship Missiles to ensure that they IN does not cross our waters.

No one here is saying that Pakistan's Armed Forces are superior to those of India, but they are more than capable enough of thwarting any aggression from the Indian side. I am completely confident that Pakistan can sustain a war against India, that is why the Indians didnt act naughty in 2002 and 2008.

Fair enough.......if I am making an assumption, then I would request you to bust my myth by providing info on the 45 day worth of reserves......

Nevertheless, by simply looking at the difference in the amount of resources available, even if we were to assume that Pakistan, has 45 days worth of reserves, the ratio of reserves between India and Pakistan remains the same, whether its 7 days or 45 days.....So past the 1 month 15 day mark, Pakistan will need to worry about sustaining the war while India will still maintain reserves thanks to its depth of resources.....

Then comes the issue of keeping your sea lanes open.....Keeping in mind that the PN is significantly outnumbered, it becomes harder for them to allocate vessels to keeping sea lanes open while effectively defending the shores....a blockade is NOT the same as an invasion, yet as effectively destabalizing and debilitating.....

The statement I do agree with is that out of all Pakistani institutions, the army has had a great amount of foresythe, yet limited by their lack of resources....

 

[Leviza]

Fair enough.......if I am making an assumption, then I would request you to bust my myth by providing info on the 45 day worth of reserves......

Nevertheless, by simply looking at the difference in the amount of resources available, even if we were to assume that Pakistan, has 45 days worth of reserves, the ratio of reserves between India and Pakistan remains the same, whether its 7 days or 45 days.....So past the 1 month 15 day mark, Pakistan will need to worry about sustaining the war while India will still maintain reserves thanks to its depth of resources.....

Then comes the issue of keeping your sea lanes open.....Keeping in mind that the PN is significantly outnumbered, it becomes harder for them to allocate vessels to keeping sea lanes open while effectively defending the shores....a blockade is NOT the same as an invasion, yet as effectively destabalizing and debilitating.....

The statement I do agree with is that out of all Pakistani institutions, the army has had a great amount of foresythe, yet limited by their lack of resources....

indian navy cannot even think of Paksitani sea Blockade, we have lots of submarine which will distory not your vessels but all submirines in sea too.. so dont underestimate Pakistan navy we have something which you dont even think of ...

 

[Bhairava]

so dont underestimate Pakistan navy we have something which you dont even think of ...
:

Unless you have this....you cant say this statement..

FYI..this is the Flying Dutchman with its triple cannons of the Pirates of the Carribean Fame.

 

[jha]

Another long thread based on a report by a Rookie who is on a spree to score some points ...

 

[nForce]

indian navy cannot even think of Paksitani sea Blockade, we have lots of submarine which will distory not your vessels but all submirines in sea too.. so dont underestimate Pakistan navy we have something which you dont even think of ...

A little history-digging will be good.The event happened during 1971 war between India and Pakistan.

The Attack on Karachi ​

The most dramatic naval plan was drawn up by the Western Naval Command. It was decided that the main attack on Karachi harbour would be launched by tiny PT-15 missile boats instead of regular warships. There were several reasons for this decision. Regular ships without air cover would be vulnerable whereas the tiny missile boats would present difficult, fast-moving targets. Moreover, the Navy wanted to try out the missiles to see how effective they could be in real action, although this kind of use of missile boats, which were designed for coastal defence and not for long range offensive action of any kind, was highly unorthodox. At any rate, three missile boats were chosen for the mission and despatched in the dead of night from Bombay harbour.

Leading the missile boat squadron was Commodore (Retired) Babru Bahan Yadav:"The task given to us was not easy. Our ships were little more than boats and did not have the range to go all the way to Karachi on their own steam. So an oiler was placed about half-way to the target and we were able to refuel and carry on.

"As we neared their coast, we found some of their ships patrolling the area. The boat on my left was detailed to engage the contact. That boat was the first Indian warship to fire a missile in anger. Two missiles were fired and both were direct hits. It is interesting to recall that the radar contact which was on our screen slowly diminished and then suddenly disappeared. We were very jubilant at that time. Later, we found that this has been a Pakistani destroyer.

Very soon another ship was located right in front of my boat. We fired a couple of missiles as well but did not sink it. The boat on our right was ordered to attack the ship. It did so and managed to cripple it completely. We thought we had sunk it but later the Pakistanis claimed that the ship had been badly crippled and put out of action but not sunk. Anyway, as we continued, both the other boats could not keep up and had to turn back. Only Nipat, the boat I was on, could proceed towards Karachi harbour. We pressed on and fired missiles on Karachi which hit the oil installations there. The attack took place just 1 minute before midnight and we could see the flames from the oil installations lighting up the sea. It looked like Diwali (Indian festival of lights and firecrackers)."

It took a few more days for Commodore Yadav's boat to return to harbour as they had to take evasive action and ran out of fuel. In the meanwhile, the Pakistanis who were hunting for the boat put out a message that an Indian vessel had been sunk. Nipat, the only boat not accounted for at that time, was presumed sunk. But Nipat returned, thanks to the ingenuity of its engineers who managed to take out pump oil and use it to run the engines.

The Indian Navy accomplished the task assigned to it within the first few days of the war. No enemy shipping could move in or out of its harbours. Merchant ships did not dare approach Karachi. Control of the seas around both wings of Pakistan was with the Indian Navy.


Source

 

[Peshwa]

indian navy cannot even think of Paksitani sea Blockade, we have lots of submarine which will distory not your vessels but all submirines in sea too.. so dont underestimate Pakistan navy we have something which you dont even think of ...

Ok....when you know what it is....Please enlighten us as well.....

Thanks

 

[Leviza]

A little history-digging will be good.The event happened during 1971 war between India and Pakistan.

The Attack on Karachi ​

The most dramatic naval plan was drawn up by the Western Naval Command. It was decided that the main attack on Karachi harbour would be launched by tiny PT-15 missile boats instead of regular warships. There were several reasons for this decision. Regular ships without air cover would be vulnerable whereas the tiny missile boats would present difficult, fast-moving targets. Moreover, the Navy wanted to try out the missiles to see how effective they could be in real action, although this kind of use of missile boats, which were designed for coastal defence and not for long range offensive action of any kind, was highly unorthodox. At any rate, three missile boats were chosen for the mission and despatched in the dead of night from Bombay harbour.

Leading the missile boat squadron was Commodore (Retired) Babru Bahan Yadav:"The task given to us was not easy. Our ships were little more than boats and did not have the range to go all the way to Karachi on their own steam. So an oiler was placed about half-way to the target and we were able to refuel and carry on.

"As we neared their coast, we found some of their ships patrolling the area. The boat on my left was detailed to engage the contact. That boat was the first Indian warship to fire a missile in anger. Two missiles were fired and both were direct hits. It is interesting to recall that the radar contact which was on our screen slowly diminished and then suddenly disappeared. We were very jubilant at that time. Later, we found that this has been a Pakistani destroyer.

Very soon another ship was located right in front of my boat. We fired a couple of missiles as well but did not sink it. The boat on our right was ordered to attack the ship. It did so and managed to cripple it completely. We thought we had sunk it but later the Pakistanis claimed that the ship had been badly crippled and put out of action but not sunk. Anyway, as we continued, both the other boats could not keep up and had to turn back. Only Nipat, the boat I was on, could proceed towards Karachi harbour. We pressed on and fired missiles on Karachi which hit the oil installations there. The attack took place just 1 minute before midnight and we could see the flames from the oil installations lighting up the sea. It looked like Diwali (Indian festival of lights and firecrackers)."

It took a few more days for Commodore Yadav's boat to return to harbour as they had to take evasive action and ran out of fuel. In the meanwhile, the Pakistanis who were hunting for the boat put out a message that an Indian vessel had been sunk. Nipat, the only boat not accounted for at that time, was presumed sunk. But Nipat returned, thanks to the ingenuity of its engineers who managed to take out pump oil and use it to run the engines.

The Indian Navy accomplished the task assigned to it within the first few days of the war. No enemy shipping could move in or out of its harbours. Merchant ships did not dare approach Karachi. Control of the seas around both wings of Pakistan was with the Indian Navy.


Source

Operation Dwarka​

Operation Dwarka, also known as Operation Somnath, was the popular name given to Pakistan Navy's attack on the Indian coastal town of Dwarka on 7 September 1965. This was the first use of a navy in the Indo-Pakistan Wars.

As the Indo-Pakistani War of 1965 broke out between India and Pakistan over Kashmir, armies and air forces of both nations were involved in bitter fighting. Pakistan was under attack in Punjab region and were locked in battles in Kashmir. To relieve pressure on the northern front, Pakistan decided to use its navy in the war by launching a quick strike on Indian coast. The primary objective of the attack was to keep Indian ships blockaded at Bombay and to destroy the radar station and other naval installations at Dwarka. The attack also hoped to divert the Indian Air Force from the north.

The attack
On the night of September 7 Pakistan Navy launched its assault on Western Indian shores. Dwarka was chosen for its proximity, (200 km from Karachi Port) less guarded port and historical relevance. The plan called for a fleet of 7 naval vessels of Pakistan to bomb the tiny town of Dwarka. It was aimed at luring the major ships anchored in Bombay to attack the Pakistan ships. The intention was that the submarine PNS Ghazi lurking in the Arabian Sea would then take out the Indian ships. Accordingly a fleet of seven ships comprising PNS Babur, PNS Khaibar, PNS Badr, PNS Jahangir, PNS Alamgir, PNS Shahjahan and PNS Tipu Sultan set sail for Dwarka and bombed the tiny town. Not all of the primary objectives were achieved. The radar installations were not destroyed with no casualties in the town but the Indian Navy's ships were kept at bay. Also a cement factory of Associated Cement Company was hit and smoke could be seen 20 km away by Pakistani ships.

Indian Navy's official version states that at around 2355 hours, the Pakistani vessels fired over the main temple of Dwarka for more than 20 minutes. The ships fired around 50 shells, which included some 5.25 inch rounds fired by the Pak cruiser Babur. It adds that most of the shells fell between the temple and the railway station, which lay 3 km from the lighthouse. No building was seriously damaged, with only the Railway Guest House suffering some minor damages. 40[1] of the unexploded shells were also recovered intact.

Pakistan claimed that the operation was a significant one, even celebrating September 8 as "Victory Day" by Pakistan Navy. Authors like Lorne John Kavic and Lowell Dittmer have noted that both Indian and Pakistani navies played no significant roles and that the "insignificant bombardment"[2] of the town was a "limited engagement, with no strategic value."[3]

Source
Operation_Dwarka

 

[Peshwa]

^^ I know your question is addressed to Asim but in relations to:


Pakistan has one of the strict licensing criteria:

To own a weapon you need the (Computerized Arms License System (CALS)): if you have the old paper copy, this will be upgraded to the CALS.

Furthermore here is a copy of the Pakistani Arms Ordianace:
THE [PAKISTAN] ARMS ORDINANCE, 1965

It is an arrestable offence to do the following:
To brandish a weapon in public
To carry a weapon without a licence
To carry a weapon(s) or ammunition(s) of prohibited bore
To carry concealed weapons

Anyone caught carrying an un licensed weapon in suspicious circumstances is liable to be prosecuted under the arms ordinance of 1965 and the Anti Terrorism Act Section (6) - Para A.
Pakistan Anti-Terrorism (Amendment)Ordinance, 1999

In 2010 the government extended the ATA to PATA: NWFP(KPK and Trial Belts): Anti-terrorism amendment ordinance extended to PATA - Breaking News, Pakistan News, National, World, Business, Cricket, Education, Health, Stock Exchange | OnePakistan.com

There is a big difference between existince of a law and enforcement of it....

My friends from Karachi boast of having AKs, M-16s, Sawed off shot guns....Guns that are illegal in most countries.....
I can understand small handguns, but I refuse to believe that licences are given out for heavy machine guns....

And this is the largest city in Pakistan we speak of.....I can only imagine the smaller lesser governed cities of Pakistan.....KP is a diff issue altogether

Another fad is of maintaining heavily armed guards for protection that pretty much every elite family from Sindh to KP is used to keeping....

Now unless there is a threat emanating from armed individuals, why the need to maintain private militias?

The internet is inundated with videos such as the below.....Wonder where one is able to get an M-16 so easily in Pak.....

Also refer to some of the threads on this very forum about members boasting of their personal arms collections and requesting information on where they can buy certain niche weapons....If you'd like, I can point you in that direction....

 

[GentlemanObserver]

A little history-digging will be good.The event happened during 1971 war between India and Pakistan.

The Attack on Karachi ​

The most dramatic naval plan was drawn up by the Western Naval Command. It was decided that the main attack on Karachi harbour would be launched by tiny PT-15 missile boats instead of regular warships. There were several reasons for this decision. Regular ships without air cover would be vulnerable whereas the tiny missile boats would present difficult, fast-moving targets. Moreover, the Navy wanted to try out the missiles to see how effective they could be in real action, although this kind of use of missile boats, which were designed for coastal defence and not for long range offensive action of any kind, was highly unorthodox. At any rate, three missile boats were chosen for the mission and despatched in the dead of night from Bombay harbour.

Leading the missile boat squadron was Commodore (Retired) Babru Bahan Yadav:"The task given to us was not easy. Our ships were little more than boats and did not have the range to go all the way to Karachi on their own steam. So an oiler was placed about half-way to the target and we were able to refuel and carry on.

"As we neared their coast, we found some of their ships patrolling the area. The boat on my left was detailed to engage the contact. That boat was the first Indian warship to fire a missile in anger. Two missiles were fired and both were direct hits. It is interesting to recall that the radar contact which was on our screen slowly diminished and then suddenly disappeared. We were very jubilant at that time. Later, we found that this has been a Pakistani destroyer.

Very soon another ship was located right in front of my boat. We fired a couple of missiles as well but did not sink it. The boat on our right was ordered to attack the ship. It did so and managed to cripple it completely. We thought we had sunk it but later the Pakistanis claimed that the ship had been badly crippled and put out of action but not sunk. Anyway, as we continued, both the other boats could not keep up and had to turn back. Only Nipat, the boat I was on, could proceed towards Karachi harbour. We pressed on and fired missiles on Karachi which hit the oil installations there. The attack took place just 1 minute before midnight and we could see the flames from the oil installations lighting up the sea. It looked like Diwali (Indian festival of lights and firecrackers)."

It took a few more days for Commodore Yadav's boat to return to harbour as they had to take evasive action and ran out of fuel. In the meanwhile, the Pakistanis who were hunting for the boat put out a message that an Indian vessel had been sunk. Nipat, the only boat not accounted for at that time, was presumed sunk. But Nipat returned, thanks to the ingenuity of its engineers who managed to take out pump oil and use it to run the engines.

The Indian Navy accomplished the task assigned to it within the first few days of the war. No enemy shipping could move in or out of its harbours. Merchant ships did not dare approach Karachi. Control of the seas around both wings of Pakistan was with the Indian Navy.


Source

Meri Jan, wo din gaye... Ap aisey karney ke ghalti be mat karna.