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Pakistan First ! The case for Pakistani Nationalism.

India is the centre of South Asia. Literally no country except India shares a border with more than one South Asian country.

Which is exactly what I said.

This doesn't make any of them any less South Asian. The Punjab and Sindh region, are without a doubt in South Asia. That aside, the arguments you make are still meaningless.
You can divide any multiethnic country and claim that the two parts have "no connection".
How is being more or "less "South" Asian relevant? Pakistanis are Asians based on a political status. Political status is subject to change. Ireland was once part of UK ( or geographically British Isle ) . It is now an independent country and member of EU emphasizing its European status, while the UK is not an EU member and emphasizing its British Isle ( or whatever) status. Ireland and Britain have far more similarities by religion, language and culture than India and Pakistan.
Can two districts from two Pakistani border provinces with India, claim a "South" Asian identity based on superficial similarities? . There are far more ethnic similarities between Baluchistan and eastern Iran and our KPK province with Afghanistan. So should Pakistan discount those ethnic similarities of a far larger population and claim a South Asian identity based on four Indian border districts?

What connection does Xinjiang have with the rest of China? Tibet used to be vassal state a long time back, but otherwise has no connection to China.

Xinjiang is geographically connected with China and so is Tibet. Both regions are linguistically and culturally different from China . So yes China is multi-ethnic too. It is the political status that counts. Both Xinjiang and Tibet are politically part of China.
But we are discussing Pakistan here...

If you divide South India from North India, they can also claim that they're culturally, linguistically different.

Yes, South Indians are culturally, and linguistically different from North Indians. Most South Indians, particularly Tamils say so themselves,

A Pakistani Punjabi or Sindhi is as unique to an average Indian as some other Indian from some other part of India. You put together a group of four contiguous provinces that happened to have a common religion and then retroactively declare them to be one nation that are somehow completely different from the neighboring group of provinces.

Partitions on the basis of language, religion and culture are normal historical processes. Apart from the Irish example above, nations are forming thus all the time. The Czechs and Slovenes separated to form the Czech Republic and Slovenia from the old Czechoslovakia. Yugoslavia split into Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia. Kosovo and North Macedonia splintered off again from Serbia. East Timor broke away from Indonesia and Djibouti broke away from Ethiopia. East Bengal already a geographical ethnic linguistic entity fought and won a Civil War to become independent from "West Pakistan ".

So yes, now four contiguous provinces with linguistic and religious similarities have got together to form Pakistan.

So no, Pakistanis aren't meaningfully different from Indians in any way expect through a history that has involved lots of unnecessary pain due to shitty colonial borders.

Understand your frustration, and appreciate your sentiment that " we are all one people ". As a secularist myself, who detests communal parochial politics, I wish we could somehow go into a more perfect and less divisive order. Unfortunately the historical process proceeds with a dynamic logic of its own, and is irreversible. Our nations have changed so much that we don't even speak the same common language. We are now two diffeerent peoples with different identities and different destinies.
 
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We need to build our republic which is the most difficult thing to achieve. A true republic creates accountability for everyone , be it a general citizen or a policy maker. On the other hand nationalism is just a 19th century ideology born in Europe and died in Europe.

Nationalism has already been mentioned in Quran in 7 Century

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(24) And the Jews shall share with the believers the expenses of war so long as they fight in conjunction,

(25) And the Jews of Banu ‘Awf shall be considered as one political community (Ummat) along with the believers—for the Jews their religion, and for the Muslims theirs, be one client or patron. He, however, who is guilty of oppression or breach of treaty, shall suffer the resultant trouble as also his family, but no one besides.

 
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India is the centre of South Asia. Literally no country except India shares a border with more than one South Asian country. This doesn't make any of them any less South Asian. The Punjab and Sindh region, are without a doubt in South Asia. That aside, the arguments you make are still meaningless. You can divide any multiethnic country and claim that the two parts have "no connection". What connection does Xinjiang have with the rest of China? Tibet used to be vassal state a long time back, but otherwise has no connection to China. If you divide South India from North India, they can also claim that they're culturally, linguistically different. A Pakistani Punjabi or Sindhi is as unique to an average Indian as some other Indian from some other part of India. You put together a group of four contiguous provinces that happened to have a common religion and then retroactively declare them to be one nation that are somehow completely different from the neighboring group of provinces. So no, Pakistanis aren't meaningfully different from Indians in any way expect through a history that has involved lots of unnecessary pain due to shitty colonial borders.




What about the 40% of Pakistanis from the North/Western regions of Pakistan that have racial, genetic and dna links to Afghanistan/Iran? They have 0 links to india. Also, less than at 4% of indians are Punjabis. Which means at least 96% of indians have 0 connections to Pakistan.
 
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Which is exactly what I said.


How is being more or "less "South" Asian relevant? Pakistanis are Asians based on a political status. Political status is subject to change. Ireland was once part of UK ( or geographically British Isle ) . It is now an independent country and member of EU emphasizing its European status, while the UK is not an EU member and emphasizing its British Isle ( or whatever) status. Ireland and Britain have far more similarities by religion, language and culture than India and Pakistan.
Can two districts from two Pakistani border provinces with India, claim a "South" Asian identity based on superficial similarities? . There are far more ethnic similarities between Baluchistan and eastern Iran and our KPK province with Afghanistan. So should Pakistan discount those ethnic similarities of a far larger population and claim a South Asian identity based on four Indian border districts?



Xinjiang is geographically connected with China and so is Tibet. Both regions are linguistically and culturally different from China . So yes China is multi-ethnic too. It is the political status that counts. Both Xinjiang and Tibet are politically part of China.
But we are discussing Pakistan here...



Yes, South Indians are culturally, and linguistically different from North Indians. Most South Indians, particularly Tamils say so themselves,



Partitions on the basis of language, religion and culture are normal historical processes. Apart from the Irish example above, nations are forming thus all the time. The Czechs and Slovenes separated to form the Czech Republic and Slovenia from the old Czechoslovakia. Yugoslavia split into Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia. Kosovo and North Macedonia splintered off again from Serbia. East Timor broke away from Indonesia and Djibouti broke away from Ethiopia. East Bengal already a geographical ethnic linguistic entity fought and won a Civil War to become independent from "West Pakistan ".

So yes, now four contiguous provinces with linguistic and religious similarities have got together to form Pakistan.



Understand your frustration, and appreciate your sentiment that " we are all one people ". As a secularist myself, who detests communal parochial politics, I wish we could somehow go into a more perfect and less divisive order. Unfortunately the historical process proceeds with a dynamic logic of its own, and is irreversible. Our nations have changed so much that we don't even speak the same common language. We are now two diffeerent peoples with different identities and different destinies.
I'm not saying that we're one people. I'm just saying that we're not two people either. You can count as many "peoples" as you want in India, and Pakistan also has more than one peoples. In the ancient times, the Hindu Kush mountains, the Indus River and the Balochistan dessert acted like a natural border. Just like one side of the Himalayas is different from the other side, one side of the Indus basin is different from the other. Putting one side of Punjab in a grouping with one half of a dessert with artificial borders (look at how straight the Iran border is) and pitting them against the other side of Punjab is some mastermind colonial demagoguery. Pakistan Forever keeps bringing up DNA etc, but the thing is that a South Indian is genetically more distinct from an Indian Punjabi/Haryanvi than they distinct from Pakistani Punjabis or Sindhis. Pakistanis culturally and linguistically are as distinct from Indians as Indians themselves are distinct from one another. Using DNA/Language/Culture makes no sense. Partition one the basis of religion is *not* a normal process. Pakistan is a very rare example. Perhaps the only country formed on the basis on religion, apart from Israel. Other countries may happen to have a common religion but they weren't founded on that basis.
 
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East Timor broke away from Indonesia and Djibouti broke away from Ethiopia. East Bengal already a geographical ethnic linguistic entity fought and won a Civil War to become independent from "West Pakistan

Just to give some perspective here. Indonesia invaded East Timor in 1976 and then colonizing it until 1999. It is never part of real Indonesia in the first place.

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The Indonesian invasion of East Timor, known in Indonesia as Operation Lotus (Indonesian: Operasi Seroja), began on 7 December 1975 when the Indonesian military invaded East Timor under the pretext of anti-communism to overthrow the Fretilin regime that had emerged in 1974. The overthrow of the popular and briefly Fretilin-led government sparked a violent quarter-century occupation in which between approximately 100,000–180,000 soldiers and civilians are estimated to have been killed or starved to death.[13] The Commission for Reception, Truth and Reconciliation in East Timor documented a minimum estimate of 102,000 conflict-related deaths in East Timor throughout the entire period 1974 to 1999, including 18,600 violent killings and 84,200 deaths from disease and starvation; Indonesian forces and their auxiliaries combined were responsible for 70% of the killings.[14][15]

During the first months of the occupation, the Indonesian military faced heavy insurgency resistance in the mountainous interior of the island, but from 1977–1978, the military procured new advanced weaponry from the United States, Israel, and other countries, to destroy Fretilin's framework.[16] The last two decades of the century saw continuous clashes between Indonesian and East Timorese groups over the status of East Timor, until 1999, when a majority of East Timorese voted overwhelmingly for independence (the alternative option being "special autonomy" while remaining part of Indonesia). After a further two and a half years of transition under the auspices of three different United Nations missions, East Timor achieved independence on 20 May 2002.[17]

 
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Nationalism has already been mentioned in Quran in 7 Century

View attachment 714238

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(24) And the Jews shall share with the believers the expenses of war so long as they fight in conjunction,

(25) And the Jews of Banu ‘Awf shall be considered as one political community (Ummat) along with the believers—for the Jews their religion, and for the Muslims theirs, be one client or patron. He, however, who is guilty of oppression or breach of treaty, shall suffer the resultant trouble as also his family, but no one besides.


Islamic ummah is certainly not the same thing as nationalism which grew as an western ideology in the 19th century and later passed on to colonies of the west. Islamic ummah created Media state and Western brand nationalism created Hitler/Mussolini's fascism.
 
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I'm not saying that we're one people. I'm just saying that we're not two people either. You can count as many "peoples" as you want in India, and Pakistan also has more than one peoples. In the ancient times, the Hindu Kush mountains, the Indus River and the Balochistan dessert acted like a natural border. Just like one side of the Himalayas is different from the other side, one side of the Indus basin is different from the other.

Why nations are formed is a complex process which is dependent on many factors, not just ethnicity or culture.
It is not only genetic similarities or differences ( or geographical features) that define a nation but a political status. Which is why I raised the example of Ireland. Genetically the Irish are not that different from the British. For that matter, most Canadians of European stock are very similar to their American counterparts yet Canadians and Americans are two different people.


Putting one side of Punjab in a grouping with one half of a dessert with artificial borders (look at how straight the Iran border is) and pitting them against the other side of Punjab is some mastermind colonial demagoguery.

Colonial demagoguery is not necessarily artificial. Over time a political status does eventually develop. The Manitoba, Saskatchewan Alberta border between Canada and the USA is a staight line running almost 1200 miles from Ely boundary waters ( Minnesota) all the way to Vancouver on the Pacific coast. There are similar people on both sides, yet a brief war was fought in 1812 ( and numerous skirmishes) till the border was settled.

The Afghanistan Pakistan border is a similar case.
The Sikh Empire generals first roughly determined the border primarily because they were loosing control over Afghanistan due to Afghan resistance and wanted to contain a spillover into the territory which is now in Pakistan. They used the ridge line of the mountains ringing the traditional Khyber Pass and other crossing points ( Torkham, Spin Boldak ) as markers. This border was artificial then, as there were very similar people on both sides, and that border did nothing to control the resistance which weakened the Sikh Empire despite efforts at alliances and concessions to different tribes. Eventually the British took over, and they faced exactly the same problem which they partially solved by having a semi-autonomous Frontier Agency buffer zone where deference was given to local tribal rule and a free passage back and forth across the border for the peoples. This colonial ruse was simply sweeping the issues of governance, and development under the carpet. Pakistan inherited this problem, which today it is solving by granting a defined political status, full statehood, security, economic support and development. So now this population over time will develop a distinct political identity. Even over such a brief period the results are already evident.

Pakistan Forever keeps bringing up DNA etc, but the thing is that a South Indian is genetically more distinct from an Indian Punjabi/Haryanvi than they distinct from Pakistani Punjabis or Sindhis. Pakistanis culturally and linguistically are as distinct from Indians as Indians themselves are distinct from one another. Using DNA/Language/Culture makes no sense.

Agree using DNA only as a factor is unrealistic. As I pointed out in the examples above, DNA, language and culture is but one factor. Political status is another. Bangladesh and West Bengal have exactly the same ethnic stock of people with the same language. Yet they are two entities, because religion is a factor and so is the largely agricultural rural nature of Bangladesh as compared to industrialized West Bengal. There can be differences despite religion, culture and language being the same. Which is why the largely Muslim Arabic speaking regions have different countries, or why Hindu majority Nepal is not a province of India.

Partition one the basis of religion is *not* a normal process. Pakistan is a very rare example. Perhaps the only country formed on the basis on religion, apart from Israel. Other countries may happen to have a common religion but they weren't founded on that basis.

Partitioning on the basis of religion is not a normal process but has become increasingly so over the last 100 years. Religious partitioning happens when the secular order breaks down, or more frequently is deliberately broken down. Ireland was formed when Britain was adamant on adopting the Protestant Anglican Church as the official Church of England. Learning from the sectarian divide the USA declared in its constitution that the "state shall have no church". Yugoslavia was ripped asunder once the communist inspired secular order broke down. Turning the secular anti-colonial liberation struggle against British Imperialism in India into a religiously motivated one had tragic consequences. The blame lies squarely on the political leadership ( if we can call it that ) . Petty communal minority politicking such as espousing the cause of the defunct Turkish Caliphate, then making up to the majority calling for a Ram Rajya ensured a permanent religious divide. This is not the place to discuss why and how the secular order
was broken and who was responsible but it is sufficient to state that the order was permanently broken despite all the efforts of the left wing, liberal secular outfits to stem the disaster. Likewise in Europe all the efforts of secular liberals failed to stop a vicious anti-semitic movement from taking hold. The results of the breakdown of the secular order resulted in the birth of nations like Pakistan, and Israel or more recently Bosnia and South Sudan.

Regardless, so far as my nation is concerned secular nationalism
(which was espoused by the Founders ) is the way forward. The political status of my nation,will over time, result in a new cultural linguistic identity. Even over the last 50 years the cultural differences are evident if we see old movies, TV programs, magazines, and family photographs. 50 years back there was far more similarity in dress language and cuisine between urban Northern India, and Pakistan. Now the divide is striking. One significant example of the divide:
Almost no females in Pakistan wear sarees anymore, and the traditional Indian sherwani is no longer the formal dress for political leaders. So even in dress we are changing. The vocabulary of our language has changed too.Modern Sanskritized Hindi is so different from modern Urdu that we can no longer carry out a formal discussion without interpreters.
That is how nations change. We must accept the inevitable.
 
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Islamic ummah is certainly not the same thing as nationalism which grew as an western ideology in the 19th century and later passed on to colonies of the west. Islamic ummah created Media state and Western brand nationalism created Hitler/Mussolini's fascism.

Unfortunately, there was no Western ideology back in the 12th Century by which time the Arab and Ajam divide ( Persian vs Arab) was evident.

Even before that the Qarmatians sacked Mecca in 930 C.E.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qarmatians
The Qarmaṭians instigated what one scholar termed a "century of terror" in Kufa.They considered the pilgrimage to Mecca a superstition and once in control of the Bahrayni state, they launched raids along the pilgrim routes crossing the Arabian Peninsula: in 906 they ambushed the pilgrim caravan returning from Mecca and massacred 20,000 pilgrims.
Under al-Jannabi (ruled 923–944), the Qarmaṭians came close to raiding Baghdad in 927, and sacked Mecca and Medina in 930. In their attack on Islam's holiest sites, the Qarmatians desecrated the Zamzam Well with corpses of Hajjpilgrims and took the Black Stone from Mecca to al-Hasa. Holding the Black Stone to ransom, they forced the Abbasids to pay a huge sum for its return in 952.

Why should we blame all our problems on "Western " ideology ?
 
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Unfortunately, there was no Western ideology back in the 12th Century by which time the Arab and Ajam divide ( Persian vs Arab) was evident.

Even before that the Qarmatians sacked Mecca in 930 C.E.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qarmatians


Why should we blame all our problems on "Western " ideology ?
We should not blame West for everything, specially when we do not recognize our own ignorances. Persians were known Imperialists themselves throughout the history as the old Persian empire itself suggests. That empire no longer exists today. Do Iranians have to feel sad about it or they have to accept the reality and move on with peace ?
 
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That is because likes of you talk sh it about us. Such as mirpuris/Potoharis are backwards, oh they are drug dealers oh they are giving pakistan bad name . When we come over to pakistan for holiday to meet relatives we get harassed by security at airport for bribes. Then you wonder why we have bad things to say. We Pakistanis do a lot for pakistan wether its charity/ or human rights etc.
All of us get that. Pashtuns get called naswaris, we Urdu speakers get called gutka addicts. Part of being Pakistani.
 
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Yes, I agree and you are correct. There was an Arab ( generic ) culture before Islam and there is an Arab North African culture that is outside Islam. There are Arabs ( Chaldeans, Levantine Christians, Coptic Christians, Ibadis, Druze, Yazidis, Alawites ) who are Arabs (or Arabic speaking); but not Muslims. Arabs though bonded by a generic Arabic language and common script are highly diverse in other ways in terms of dialect, dress, cuisine, religious sects, tribal affiliations and generally culture. A Gulf Arab is very different from a Levantine Arab.

For the Arabs Islam was a great unifier, ending the earlier tribal conflicts based on the perceived supremacy of pagan deities of individual tribes. Arabs became the leaders of the world from the 7th Century to the 13th Century because they observed the directive of our Prophet ( PBUH ) to seek knowledge wherever it was available. Their minds were open which is why they translated documents from India, Greece, Persia, Rome, China and built libraries such as in Baghdad and Timbuktu. They also set up universities such as Al Hazar and Cordoba.

Arab culture regressed after two cataclysmic events. The sack of Baghdad by the Mongols (1258 C.E.) and the destruction of the Moorish presence in Spain by the Spanish Christian Reconquista ( 1482).
In the 220 odd years between these events, the Arabs suffered a huge population depletion from massacres at the hands of the Mongols, deaths due to plague and pandemics, forced conversions, enslavement and expulsions by the Christians in much of Europe especially Spain, and Portugal, and heavy losses defending themselves from Crusades.
The Arabs regressed to a tribal status pretty much the way they were before the advent of Islam. Their famous centers of civilization and academic excellence , that bred scholars like Ibn Sina, Ghazali, Ibn Rushed, and Maimonides ( an Arab speaking Jew ).were gone forever.




Yes, I agree. The advent of Islam was a remarkable catalyst in unifying the Oghuz Turkic tribes into a one entity that resisted the Mongols and the Crusaders and founded the Ottoman Empire.
Likewise, Islam was a huge factor in uniting the different factions in old Persia, and like the Turks the Persians were able to provide a robust resistance to the Mongol occupation.

Much before the Mongol onslaught the Persian culture had joined the Turko Afghan culture in a synthesis that proved resilient and vibrant. Farsi speaking Turko Afghans conquered most of Northern and North Western India.




Actually here is where I will differ. The advent of Islam in India via Arab traders, conversions through the efforts the Sufi mashaiks and the aulia , the presence of the Muslim led ruling alliances for 1000 years changed the Indian subcontinent forever. Muslims brought into India all the scientific knowledge of the European and Chinese civilizations ( via translated documents ) that an insular pre-Islamic India would never have acquired. The good part is that this knowledge was retained and developed in India, while much of it was lost in the rest of the Islamic world due to Mongol and Crusader invasions. Merely retaining this treasury of knowledge in the various madarsas, kutubkhanas, Dar-ul-ulooms was a feat .
Muslims brought both the art of war ( gun powder, chain mail armor, steel swords, compound bow, canons, small arms, cavalry, metallurgy) ;and peace ( stitched clothing, cuisine, polo, painting, lithograph, textile dyeing, and printing, silk, hydraulics and lift irrigation , architecture, brassware,etc.,) to name a few. Muslims learned Sanskrit, and translated a very large number of documents into Farsi including the religious Hindu epics such as Mahabharata, Gita, and Ramayana. Muslims compiled the first biological study of India's environment meticulously documenting the Indian fauna and flora. These are jusr a few of the contributions that Muslims brought to the Indian heritage.



Answers to the above:
Allah ( SWT) gives no added or worldly benefits to people living in an "Islamic" state merely because they live in an "Islamic" state . We haven't even defined what an "Islamic" state is.
"Added or worldly benefits" of a people ( any people Muslim or other ), are granted to them because of collective patriotism, nationalism and service above self to their nations. Thus people comprising a nation with a sense of nationalism whether Muslim, Christian or whatever will prosper. Their fate ( taqdeer) will be determined by their effort
(tadbeer) . A so-called "Islamic state" ridden with corruption, nepotism and selfish desire of groups to loot their fellow countrymen for personal will never prosper. This axiom holds true for all peoples, Our ally China is an atheistic state but the basic values of honesty and nationalism have been restored after a "century of humiliation". The results are there to see.
There doesn't necessarily have to be a conflict between Faith and Nationalism.
Faith and piety guarantees an individual bondage with the Creator for the life hereafter. Basic values common to all major faiths ( or even secular nationalism), such as honesty when applied to the benefit of a nation eventually delivers worldly benefits.



We got more than we ever dreamed we would get when the first few hundred muhajirun fled to Yathrib along with the Prophet ( PBUH ).
Few of those would have believed, that the Faith they carried in their hearts would spread from that dusty oasis village to every corner of the planet; growing from a few hundred followers to 1.8 billion believers today.
Few would have imagined the military power the Almighty would grant them in every era, as they adapted from age to age, from wooden bows to firearms, to aircraft, missiles, and finally nuclear weapons. Islam has been around for only 1440 years (roughly) . Where did 5000 years of humiliation come from?
@peagle
Now can we discuss Pakistani Nationalism and why we should be Pakistanis first ?

I believe that you have raised the following questions:
1) Allah ( SWT) gives no added or worldly benefits to people living in an "Islamic" state merely because they live in an "Islamic" state.

This is incorrect. Allah will not give any irrational knowledge if there is no Islamic state. There are two types of knowledge, rational and irrational. Irrational knowledge is something a person receives directly from God - if he is a prophet it is called a miracle, if he is a normal person it is called a karamat:
a) There is the story of King Solomon and the Queen of Sheeba. When prophet Solomon (PBUH) asked about the thrown of Queen Sheeba, the leader of the Jin said “I will bring it to you before you rise from your council.45 Surely I have the power to do so and I am trustworthy. And he who had some knowledge of the Book said: "I will bring it before the twinkling of your eye." ” This human mentioned in the Quran was not a prophet. All he had was knowledge the Almighty had given him.
b) There are accounts of the Kara`mat given to the companions of the prophet. For example The 2nd Caliph Umar was giving the Jummah Khutba in the prophet’s mosque in Medina and he was shown a vision of the Muslim army fighting in Iraq and facing a surprise attack. He was able to assist them from Medina by calling to them and his voice was heard by all fighting thousands of miles away. There are also a large number of accounts of Kara’mat given to other pious Muslims centuries after the passing of the prophet.
Why do we not get Karamat's today?
You asked for a source for the obligation to have at least 1 Islamic state anywhere in the world. Here is the lecture from Dr Israr Ahmed. I listened to it a while back. It is a bit long but if you want to can start listening from minute 35 onwards: I think he quotes Mufti Taqi usmani and Maulana Mahdudi in the same lecture, if he does not I can send you the one he gave in Chicago (namaz moon per mari jai gi, 43 minutes).


It is really sad when I visit these forums and I find that Muslims folks, even in this day and age, have no idea about how to answer the following questions:
1) What was the non religious/rational/intellectual reason for Allah to send Islam
2) What is the non religious/rational/intellectual reason why Allah chose the Arabic language (why sansikrit, persian, latin, aramaic, hebrew, madrin, etc) languages were not chosen?
3) How does the irrational knowledge assist rational/Scientific knowledge? What is the non religious need for irrational knowledge?
4) You spoke about the Mongols. 2 Million Muslims were killed when the Mongols attacked. The same number have been killed now since the WOT war on terror began. This is a sign for the wise. Why did Allah send these two punishments? Hint: Sufi (Ihsan, inward to the extreme), Fundo's (Islam, external to the extreme).
5) What is the scientific reason for learning Arabic today and what scientific knowledge will Allah give to the new Muslims/converts in the west very soon via Arabic?

These are related to Pakistan and Pakistan First. Why? Because inhabitants of this region bore the full brunt of both these punishments - First Genghis Khan honoured us with a visit and built a tall tower of our skulls in our honour. Second We had to pay a very heavy price due to the WOT.

Secondly there has to be an understanding that there is something wrong with our culture. I cannot stress this enough. You asked about the 5000 year of humiliation. I wrote about it in this same thread see my post number 104, read it and try to answer it. There three questions were asked:
1) Why no mai ka lal from this land had enough dum?
2) Why our behind was kicked for 5000 years, people coming to our land with absolute ease
3) The formula's published in the British army sipahi training guide - How an advance culture takes advantage of a primitive culture?
To see a full diagnosis of the flaws in our culture see the report here, see how we are manipulated today and these formulas are applied against us today - especially the info from Yale, etc. at the end

The only time we tried some cultural reform, was when Sir Syed Ahmed khan made Al Ghazali reading compulsory. This book reformed the Persian and Turkish cultures. In our 5000 year history the generation which was reformed by the Al Ihya was the best generation we ever came up with - the generation which created Pakistan.

Einstein said that the definition of stupidity is to do the same thing over and over again and expect a different outcome each time. There was an attempt to explain the 5000 year a** kicking in subsequent post by a member - ibn khaldoon. Just because you can explain the cause, does not mean you can justify/defend it. It is a culture that makes a people great:

Humiliation is a state of the mind. When faced with humiliation people tend to fall in one of two categories. Category A are those who admit their mistakes and embark on course correction – this often involves doing a 180 degree flip an abandoning their position. Good examples include the Germans and the Japanese. After being annihilated in the second world war, these two groups abandoned their beliefs and positions. The result is that today they are included in the leading nations of the world. Category B are people who dig their heels and refuse to abandon their position and insist that they are right. The Russians are good examples here. After loosing the cold war, they refused to adopt the methods of the victorious party. The humiliation for these type of people never really ends.

Here is the sad fact. If any religious dogma (like Hinduism) is in play, one can rule out change in people as the religion will forbid it. Barring any religious dogma, unfortunately, whether one falls in category A or B has nothing to do with the persons abilities, instead it has to do with the persons culture. More specifically it depends on the courage of his or her culture.
 
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Often I disagree with you but here I am in agreement with you.

(Am copying this post from another thread.)
I agree with you on all points except one and here too I am partially in agreement: ( Mods: Please allow this post)
Agree
1. People or Northern Punjab, Gilgit Baltistan, Kashmir, KPK, Western Baluchistan, are genetically and racially different from the rest of the sub-continent, and more closely affiliated to Central and West Asia; specifically the old Khorasan region, with a mix of old Greek, Turkish and Persian racial mix. The Kalash, Swatis and Hunza people have nothing in common with any population segment anywhere in the subcontinent and neither do the Bugtis, Mengals and Marris of Baluchistan have anything in common with the rest of the subcontinent. Sylvia Matheson wrote a famous book on this aspect "Tigers of Baluchistan ".
Having said that, South Punjab and East Sindhi populations do have some racial affinity to their counterparts immediately across the border.
In culture however all Pakistanis were different to what is now India, and over the last 70 years have diverged considerably.

2. Pakistanis had a distinct identity and now have affirmed their uniqueness as our nation has transformed.
Post 1971 the ethnic racial foundation of our nation got further defined. We are no longer confused about who we are on account of a dog leg territory 1000 miles away.
The USA is defined by Chicago, Detroit, Los Angeles and Houston, not by Honolulu in Hawai.

Partially Disagree

Indian Muslims have nothing to do with Pakistan and Pakistan has nothing to do with them. Indian Muslims are culturally, and racially different from all of Pakistan, and in anycase are too diverse amongst themselves to have any cohesive definition. A portion of Indian Muslims in the Northern Indian States speak a form of Urdu which itself is now archaic, and different from modern Urdu used in Pakistan. The Urdu Indian Muslims speak is rapidly getting Sanskritized so even the feeble linguistic connection is fading fast.

The earlier generation of Indian Muslims prior to 1947 fought for Pakistan, through civil disobedience, voted for Pakistan and Partition while facing severe loss of life and property through vengeance pogroms.
Despite this only a very small portion of their population went to live in Pakistan. Subsequent generations have paid a fearful price for the action of the one generation that supported Pakistan.

Indian Muslims support Pakistan emotionally similar to the way Jews world over support Israel even though few would go and actually live in Israel. For Indian Muslims Pakistan is the insurance that there will be a Muslim presence in the subcontinent which will survive Hindutva hostility for the foreseeable future . I therefore agree with the RSS that most Indian Muslims are sympathetic to Pakistan. Being pro-Pakistani in India is risky proposition. Any solidarity with any Islamic entity is "anti-national " in India.
At this point faced with a fascist regime in power Indian Muslims have fallen silent. Any show of affinity to Pakistan has heavy consequences.
About 5-6 highly vocal paid turncoats come on the media, and curse Pakistan hoping that by their actions they will relieve the pressure on the rest of the population.

Indian Muslims don't figure in any calculation of collateral damage either by India or Pakistan. In the case of a nuclear war 90% of the urban Indian Muslim population living in Ghettos will be wiped out.
About 180 million Indian Muslims will be killed.
Pakistan should not care what happens to Indian Muslims. They have their own destiny whatever that is.

We should not blame West for everything, specially when we do not recognize our own ignorances. Persians were known Imperialists themselves throughout the history as the old Persian empire itself suggests. That empire no longer exists today. Do Iranians have to feel sad about it or they have to accept the reality and move on with peace ?

We are referring to the post Islamic converted Persians or then known as Iranians. Basically the old Khorasan region.
 
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I'm not saying that we're one people. I'm just saying that we're not two people either. You can count as many "peoples" as you want in India, and Pakistan also has more than one peoples. In the ancient times, the Hindu Kush mountains, the Indus River and the Balochistan dessert acted like a natural border. Just like one side of the Himalayas is different from the other side, one side of the Indus basin is different from the other. Putting one side of Punjab in a grouping with one half of a dessert with artificial borders (look at how straight the Iran border is) and pitting them against the other side of Punjab is some mastermind colonial demagoguery. Pakistan Forever keeps bringing up DNA etc, but the thing is that a South Indian is genetically more distinct from an Indian Punjabi/Haryanvi than they distinct from Pakistani Punjabis or Sindhis. Pakistanis culturally and linguistically are as distinct from Indians as Indians themselves are distinct from one another. Using DNA/Language/Culture makes no sense. Partition one the basis of religion is *not* a normal process. Pakistan is a very rare example. Perhaps the only country formed on the basis on religion, apart from Israel. Other countries may happen to have a common religion but they weren't founded on that basis.
Mostly agreed. One point to make though. Practically 99% percent of Pakistan's population is Indo-Iranic both linguistically and to some degree genetically. That at least defines Pakistanis not as "one people" but a group of partially related people. Both linguistically and genetically.
 
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India is the centre of South Asia. Literally no country except India shares a border with more than one South Asian country. This doesn't make any of them any less South Asian. The Punjab and Sindh region, are without a doubt in South Asia. That aside, the arguments you make are still meaningless. You can divide any multiethnic country and claim that the two parts have "no connection". What connection does Xinjiang have with the rest of China? Tibet used to be vassal state a long time back, but otherwise has no connection to China. If you divide South India from North India, they can also claim that they're culturally, linguistically different. A Pakistani Punjabi or Sindhi is as unique to an average Indian as some other Indian from some other part of India. You put together a group of four contiguous provinces that happened to have a common religion and then retroactively declare them to be one nation that are somehow completely different from the neighboring group of provinces. So no, Pakistanis aren't meaningfully different from Indians in any way expect through a history that has involved lots of unnecessary pain due to shitty colonial borders.
India was a Greek name for the region of the Indus. It was not until 1947 that the country "India" took up the name. Historical India and modern India are two different things. Just as Greek Macedonia and Republic of Macedonia which took up the name are two different things.

Indians like to claim India is a continuity of British India, which is not so. British North America and the United States of America are two different things, despite commonality in name. British North America also included Canada. I don't see Americans claiming Canada was part of America.
 
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