Pakistan First ! The case for Pakistani Nationalism.

[PakistaniJunior]

@Baibars_1260

Hey there buddy, looking at a thread like this made me really happy I agree with most of what you've said, but Pakistan's identity and destiny is intertwined with that of Islam, but i always felt that there was more. Sure, we're a immensely heterogenous nation, but strangely we are also "us". I have stopped looking for categories to put Pakistan in, we simply cannot be put into one. So i believe we're in a category of our own.

Our Nation has great history and there are many ancient ruins littered around the country begging to be explored. It genuinely makes me sad to see how so little is being done for us to appreciate ourselves, yet we stubbornly run after the prestige of other muslims...eh i felt it was kind of weird. I am a part of this nation's youth, not even a adult yet. But all i know regarding my country is that i must love every single one of my countrymen, regardless of their color,caste,creed or religion, It is my duty as a Pakistani. It is because i view these things as mine, and these people and their cultures are as dear to me as my own. I think you should give it some time, but our identity is starting to evolve in that direction. I believe my emotions are a mix of both nationalism and muslim brotherhood. I love our religious minorities with nationalistic emotions, and our muslim pakistanis with muslim brotherhood emotions?

Can these two things not co-exist? I love muslims all over the globe, but i won't let that make me blind to our identity, because they won't accept us in theirs and we shouldn't let ourselves be undefined because of that. The muslims of the world aren't ready for the Ummah thing at the moment lol So, i'll stick with loving my pakistani brethren for now. I agree on how our cultures are being misappropriated as the cultures of other nations. I hate it when others have the gall to tell us what is ours and what isn't ours (Afghans and Indians). These people do not have any right to dictate us on anything. Funny thing with regards to India is while they tell us we've no culture and heritage of our own, they are trying really hard to normalize the things that are "normal" for us. Look at their Bollywood, north western Indians barely make 10% of their population yet they try really hard to be known around the world through those cultures and people. Look at their racism against South Indian and North Eastern Indian states. The list goes on.

Us Pakistanis have found ourselves in quite a pickle. There is a lot there is about us. For me, i prefer a pakistani over any foreigner. I love Pakistan's cultures' and populace above any other nation. I love Pakistan's beautiful geographic topologies above any other! I have a lot to be proud of, and i have a lot to love. Our beauty is in our diversity, our beauty is in our unity. It may seem slow to you, but this change has already started with us, the younger generation. I have lived in multiple provinces, i can't really call a single place my home. So i call Pakistan my home, my identity and the love i have for this nation is immense and unending.

My post doesn't have any points to add, but i just wanted to vent my feelings on here a bit. This topic makes me emotional :"D You have no idea how touched i get when i see Black Pakistanis, white pakistanis, asian-looking pakistanis, middle eastern looking pakistanis, Indian-looking Pakistanis, all don the banner of white and green. As long as i have these people, i don't really care about others lol I think this is the best feeling in the world. I hope more and more people feel the same way as i do.

Yay for a Pan-Islamic-Ethno-Linguistic-Cultural Pakistan which is basically inclusive of all people that live within the Boundaries of modern-day Pakistan. We shouldn't destroy our love for the muslim Ummah, but i guess it can be put on stand-by till the Ummah gets its sh*t back together. For now, Pakistan first!

 

[tkmd]

It's a false construct. A false abstraction created by the British colonialists during the British raj. Pakistan shares a border with Iran but we are not a part of the Middle East. Apart from india, Pakistan shares NO other border with ALL other south asian nations yet we are supposed to be a part of the same region as bangladesh, Nepal, Sri Lanka etc...............





I'd rather kill myself than not be a Muslim. But that doesn't mean to say I also want to be a slave for non-Pakistani Muslims.




Pakistan shares a border with Iran but we are not a part of the Middle East. We share NO border with bangladesh, SriLanka, Nepal, Bhutan etc. So how how can we all be south asians in a geographical sense?

U do realize that the Prophet PBUH, the Companions RA, the Tabi’een, the Taba Tabi’een, the great Imam’s etc were all non Pakistani Muslims right? Are you not a slave of the Prophet PBUH? Do you not have any fealty to his message? Do you not know that he likened the Ummah to a body? Are you rejecting his vision for us? Do you also believe that since other Muslims don’t pray / fast / abstain from zina those things don’t matter? If you are Muslim then you need to go back and ponder on your manhaj and aqeedah.

 

[AgnosticIndian]

We are not indians. Modern day Pakistanis are racially and ethnically different to modern day indians.

You say this again and again, but what does it even mean? Both India and Pakistan are multiethnic countries. Bengalis? India has those. Punjabis? India has those too. Sindhis? India has many Sindhis. Even many Afghans. Neither India nor Pakistan are ethnic states (unlike Bangladesh).

 

[Itachi]

For the second part yeah I am Islamophobe, what will you do about it? LOL hahaha

I don't need to do anything. You guys are an extinct race. You probably will not have children, if you do then they'll either become Muslim or won't have children either.

 

[Buddhistforlife]

I don't need to do anything. You guys are an extinct race. You probably will not have children, if you do then they'll either become Muslim or won't have children either.

Keep dreaming fool. Also listen we don't boast about people converting to our religion though many Europeans and Indian Dalits are converting to Buddhism en masse. For us religion is personal and nothing to popularize.

See the popularity of Buddhism in the west.

Hindus converting into Buddhism en masse

European Buddhist monk Ajahm Brahm. There are many Europeans who are becoming monks now.

European Buddhists in action.


So Buddhists becoming extinct can only be found in muslim nightmares only.

 

[Buddhistforlife]

I don't need to do anything. You guys are an extinct race. You probably will not have children, if you do then they'll either become Muslim or won't have children either.

Dude my children won't be converting into Islam but you better protect your muslim brothers from becoming apostates.

Also we are the children of Mongol King Hulaqu Khan who sacked Baghdad so mind your tongue.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

U do realize that the Prophet PBUH, the Companions RA, the Tabi’een, the Taba Tabi’een, the great Imam’s etc were all non Pakistani Muslims right? Are you not a slave of the Prophet PBUH? Do you not have any fealty to his message? Do you not know that he likened the Ummah to a body? Are you rejecting his vision for us? Do you also believe that since other Muslims don’t pray / fast / abstain from zina those things don’t matter? If you are Muslim then you need to go back and ponder on your manhaj and aqeedah.

Ummah can ONLY exist when ALL Muslims want and accept it. Ummah can NOT exist by Pakistanis continuely harping on about it. Virtually ALL modern day non-Pakistani Muslims are against the idea of the Ummah.

 

[Kamikaze Pilot]

12 pages of this IVC thread and @Indus Pakistan has still not posted. The guy is banned or what?

- PRTP GWD

 

[padamchen]

Ummah can ONLY exist when ALL Muslims want and accept it. Ummah can NOT exist by Pakistanis continuely harping on about it. Virtually ALL modern day non-Pakistani Muslims are against the idea of the Ummah.

I'm a great supporter of Ummah.

Because whether or not it exists, whether or not its accepted universally or partially, the very idea of it has taken firm root in the minds of populations around the world.

And Non Ummah is a reality. And its growing, regardless of whether Ummah does or does not.

Cheers, Doc

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

U do realize that the Prophet PBUH, the Companions RA, the Tabi’een, the Taba Tabi’een, the great Imam’s etc were all non Pakistani Muslims right? Are you not a slave of the Prophet PBUH? Do you not have any fealty to his message? Do you not know that he likened the Ummah to a body? Are you rejecting his vision for us? Do you also believe that since other Muslims don’t pray / fast / abstain from zina those things don’t matter? If you are Muslim then you need to go back and ponder on your manhaj and aqeedah.

Ummah can ONLY exist when ALL Muslims want and accept it. Ummah can NOT exist by Pakistanis continuely harping on about it. Virtually ALL modern day non-Pakistani Muslims are against the idea of the Ummah.

You say this again and again, but what does it even mean? Both India and Pakistan are multiethnic countries. Bengalis? India has those. Punjabis? India has those too. Sindhis? India has many Sindhis. Even many Afghans. Neither India nor Pakistan are ethnic states (unlike Bangladesh).

The races and ethnicities that make up india are different to those that make up Pakistan. The Persianized Nomads and Pushtoons who make up 40% of Pakistan have NO connection to india in ANY way whatsoever. In fact they have racial and genetic connections to Iran and Afghanistan as well as Pakistan. AT MOST the 2% of indians who have minor connections to Pakistan are irrelevant and meaningless. It means that AT LEAST 98% of indians have NOTHING in common with 100% of Pakistanis. It's like saying the White Western European English have racials connections to modern day Africa because 2% of the British population are black.

Dude my children won't be converting into Islam but you better protect your muslim brothers from becoming apostates.

Also we are the children of Mongol King Hulaqu Khan who sacked Baghdad so mind your tongue.

Like the millions of Muslims in Europe who are leaving Islam as you previously claimed?..........


If what you say is true then remember to post the links here...........

 

[Kamikaze Pilot]

Like the millions of Muslims in Europe who are leaving Islam as you previously claimed?..........

Today's lies can become tomorrow's reality.

- PRTP GWD

 

[AgnosticIndian]

Ummah can ONLY exist when ALL Muslims want and accept it. Ummah can NOT exist by Pakistanis continuely harping on about it. Virtually ALL modern day non-Pakistani Muslims are against the idea of the Ummah.

Really? Even after so many fitna, did the leaders of Islam abandon Ummah? There will always be some people who betray each other but can this be used to say Ummah is dead? Immediately after the death of the messenger of Allah (PBUH) his followers turned on each other? Did they abandon Ummah after that saying that since not everyone accepts unity we should leave it? It is my opinion that this nationalism thing is just another fitna that shouldn't be allowed to divide Muslims. Tell me, who invented the concept of nation states? It was Europeans, who did the agreement in Westphalia to create this structure that you're now trying to preach above religion itself. How can this be any good to Islam? Islam used to be united under Ottomans just over a century ago. It was so united that Muslims under the British Raj refused to fight against the Ottomans, against their brethren. But then it was broken by them into artificial nation states that fight each other to this day for the benefit of Europeans and Americans. Maybe the Westerners played the long con. Instead of embracing their game, I think Muslims should actively try to fight against this concept (nation states and nationalism) that has artificially divided Muslims in recent times.
Sometimes I think about the ridiculousness of the concept of a nation based on religion. e. g. Israel and of course Pakistan. Religion is one very old thing, while the concept of nation states was developed by Europeans in the 17th century. How can they mesh together? I can understand a *Jewish (ethnicity)*/*Muslim* state, based on the argument that the group is persecuted by the majority and therefore needs protection. But making that into a Islamic/Judaic state is nonsensical. I would say Israel got around it by being a officially secular state, and Pakistan sometimes tries to be good to minorities (although some parts of the population are radicalised beyond repair). There's crucial differences though. Most people in Israel oppose Halakha law, where's most in Pakistan support Shari'ah.
Note: I sometimes can't keep track of whether what I'm saying goes against the rule of forums on matter of religious discussion. What I'm saying isn't on religion itself per se, just on relationship between nationalism and some commonly accepted principals in Islam.

 

[lafete]

Hazrat Umar RA said "you will loose all your power and influence the day you loose the pride you should get out of being a muslim".

This is how an advance culture takes advantage of a primitive culture:

The British, published formulas for controlling different groups living under the British Raj (Punjabi, Pushtoon, Baloch, Sindhi, Tamil, Kashmiri, Marathi, Gujrati, Bengali etc) in their "British army officer's sipahi training guide". The conclusion of this guide also states that as long as these races shall walk the earth, these formulas shall hold. You bully a Punjabi, bribe a Pushtoon, ignore a Sindhi, corrupt a Kashmiri and control the elders of the Baloch. These formulas are quite offensive but the sad part is that during their 200 year rule, there was never any revision issued - Thus proving their conclusion to some extent.

When the arabs tried to defend the ways of their forefathers, the quran asked "what if your forefathers were fools?".

Folks will argue that this was asked in a religious context. However, before Islam, the Arabs where the joke of the world. After Islam, they became the rulers of the world for centuries.

There has to be a realization that the culture or cultures in the sub-continent ARE the problem. They are the reason for the 5000 years of a** kicking and humiliation:

America - 2001 and counting
Soviet union - 1979 to 1989
China - 1962
Great Britain - 200 years
Moghul empire - 800 years
Mongols
Arab Caliphate
The Persian empire
The Greek empire (Alexander the Great)

Unless we have this realization there can be no talk of cultural reform.

 

[Itachi]

Keep dreaming fool. Also listen we don't boast about people converting to our religion though many Europeans and Indian Dalits are converting to Buddhism en masse. For us religion is personal and nothing to popularize.

View attachment 708904

See the popularity of Buddhism in the west.

View attachment 708905

Hindus converting into Buddhism en masse

View attachment 708906

European Buddhist monk Ajahm Brahm. There are many Europeans who are becoming monks now.

View attachment 708907

European Buddhists in action.


So Buddhists becoming extinct can only be found in muslim nightmares only.

Whoever banned him has my respects.

Dude my children won't be converting into Islam but you better protect your muslim brothers from becoming apostates.

Also we are the children of Mongol King Hulaqu Khan who sacked Baghdad so mind your tongue.

Now you're Children of Mongols??

The same Mongols who beaten by Mamluks and the Delhi Sultanate??

The same Mongols who are right now making throat singing songs on Youtube?

 

[Baibars_1260]

@lafete ; @Itachi @tkmd @Apprentice

My question to those questioning "nationalism " is then why did we need a nation?
Why couldn't we be good Muslims within a united India?
If personal piety, adherence to the faith and unity with the Ummah is concerned then the Muslims of the subcontinent had been doing that for 1000 years in India.

This is EXACTLY the argument that the Congress Bhartiya Muslims, led by Maulana Abul Kalam Azad. Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan, Dr.Syed Mehmood, Rafi Ahmed Kidwai, Gani Khan Chaudhuri, Zakir Hussain, and the mullahs of the Jamait Ul Ulema e Hind make.
This is EXACTLY the argument that is sold to Indian Muslims by the RSS brand of Muslim leaders like Mukhtar Abbas Naqvi.
Why Pakistan?
We are ALL brethren of the Ummah, So be steadfast in your faith as Muslims of the greater Ummah who merely reside in India.
By the argument of Jamait Ul Ulema e Hind, and Owaisi:

Why should Pakistan exist at all!

Did we all suddenly become Muslims on 14th August 1947?

"Indian" Muslims?

So far as we know most Indian Muslims still remember the ayats to say their namaz, pray on Fridays, some can read Arabic, they try to fast during Ramadan, offer zakat, observe the two Eids, and still manage to perform Hajj in sufficient numbers to warranty a special Hajj Terminal in Delhi. Some can still read and write Urdu, and the four main centers of the Islamic schools of thought in the subcontinent are all located in India. As far as we know they are steadfast in the belief of Tauheed and can recite the kalma e shahada. So the 5 pillars of Islam are maintained in the personal individual lives of Indian Muslims.

We were all Indian Muslims 73 years back.

So why Pakistan?

Would like to have an answer to this argument.