Pakistan First ! The case for Pakistani Nationalism.

[peagle]

So even by the evidence you have presented, it clearly shows that Pakistanis are racially different to indians and bengalis. So hence we can't all be banded together as "south asians" or "desis".

That's genetics, our foundation,
What makes us who we are is a confluence of factors, such as,
religion, language, culture, historical experiences and so on, they matter too.

What that shows is that we are not just different from other south Asians, but also from the central Asians, Iranians and Afghans,
Throughout history we have created a mix that is unique among the people of the indus. It is a reminder for those who keep point out the differences, that in essence we are from the same body, different from all our neighbours.
There is no difference between the Baloch, Punjabi, Pathan and Kashmiri, the major groups of the Indus region.
It shows we are a family, different from others, including to the west, but, we also cannot ignore other aspect of our history and cultural identities.

 

[Baibars_1260]

I want our soldiers to die as shaheed. If they die for Islam then Allah will grant them the rewards of shahadat in next life. The state can't provide those rewards to our soldiers in the next eternal life. That is why Islamic motives for Army must be retained at all costs. No one is saying fight for Ummah. Just fight for Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

Absolutely !
If we recite the Kalma-e-shahada as we breathe our last we are shaheed . Personal religious freedom and choice is sacrosanct. It is the fundamental human right of the soldier. All modern armed forces in world uphold these rights to fighting men. The USA has imams ( rank of captain as for chaplains ), in the armed forces which guarantee fighting men of Muslim faith not only their last rites, and but their day to day spiritual and religious guidance. Their spiritual needs attended to, the fighting men in the US armed forces are welded together in solidarity into the most formidable fighting force in the world.

If the US armed forces could accommodate the religious needs of such a small portion of it's fighting men, then surely as a majority of our fighting men are Muslims we should have all requirements to fulfill their spiritual needs and we do. Secularism does not mean denying individuals their fundamental human right of the freedom of worship.

Pakistani soldiers have achieved martyrdom in other wars when Pakistan did not even exist, including World War 1, World War 2. Even today their names in glory are inscribed in the India Gate monument in Delhi, which even the Hindutva regime has so far not erased. Pakistani soldiers died in our Civil War fighting fellow Muslims, and thousands have died fighting our War on Terror. Pakistani soldiers have died during UN peace keeping operations. So far as our armed forces are concerned, they are all shaheeds and remembered with honor. We don't know what Pilot Officer Rashid Minhas's last words were when he fought to save his plane from being hijacked by a traitor who incidentally was a Muslim too. Rashid Minhas is a shaheed. because he died for the nation.
Bottom line:
I am not promoting aggressive atheistic secularism. A fighting person can shout whatever he or she wants, to sustain courage and determination. The most difficult time for any person is to know one is going to die.
Our armed forces are automatically Islamic simply by virtue of the manpower constitution. But our armed forces are not unique that way, and we have been engaged in fighting other similar "Islamic" forces.

We also have a tiny tiny fraction of non-Muslims in our armed forces ( Christians, Parsis, Sikhs, Hindus ) . The dedication, courage and sacrifice these men and women have shown have matched the loyalty of their Muslim comrades in arms. They fought and died for a nation they loved above their own lives. They are shaheeds as well.

 

[El Sidd]

We are Pakistan's First ....

It is necessary now as never before to emphasize our identity.

We are Pakistanis, dwellers of Sindh, Baluchistan, KPK, Gilgit, Baltistan, Punjab and Azad Kashmir. We are defined by a common cultural thread of Saraiki linking our provinces and our peoples.
Ours is an ancient culture going back to the dawn of civilization established in the Indus River Valley 5400 years ago. We have evolved over the centuries absorbing other cultures and religions.

Over the last 50 years our cultural and national identity has been transformed and redefined.
We are redefining our cultural traditions to as they were centuries back with deep roots to Central Asia and the Middle East. In dress, language, and cuisine we are now different than we were 50 years back. Few nations in the world have culturally transformed so rapidly.

To further redefine it is necessary to emphasize who we are NOT...
Pakistanis are Not :

1. "Indian" Muslims - We are not part of "India", and yes a majority of our
population is Muslim, but religion is not the only defining feature of our national
identity.
We have no connection with the Muslim population of "India" as defined by its
territory today.

2. "West" Pakistanis - There is no "East" or "West" Pakistan but simply Pakistan.


3. "South" Asians- Pakistanis are Asians and our population similarity is with West or Central
Asia.

What do PDF members think?

Are the other South Asian populations at all relevant to us?

5400 years of history yet not one administrative unit to show for it.

They won't let a new southern punjab or seraikistan province be created.

 

[Baibars_1260]

sacrilege, I don't mix anything when it comes to my drinks, neat and in original form all the way, every time.

Will tease you again. Bloody Mary, Tomato juice and Smirnoff's with Worcestershire sauce, and the rim of the glass laced with salt...
But I will never convert you on this...

The optimum word I used was "had", 20 years ago in fact, so it has been a long time, she actually used to correct my Urdu lol, and tell me the meaning of words when listening to qawali.
These days I have no Bengali friends in my circle, all previous experience, I am surrounded Indians nowadays lol, one west Bengali couple among them, with both I am very close, closet RSS supporters, wont openly admit it, but it is so obvious, not Marxist I'm afraid, her father is in fact ex-army and a RSS counsellor in west Bengal.
she keeps telling me to speak Hindi, and I keep telling her over my dead body, and on it goes lol

I was lucky getting the Marxist batch, who introduced me to Amitav Ghosh, Arundhati Roy, Satyajit Ray , Ritwick Ghatak, and even non Bengali art films such as those by Mira Nair.
Being Kolkata types they are extremely Urdu friendly and have a passable fluency in the language. Remarkably they even studied Faiz ; well actually not so surprising given the recent interest in his poem
"Hum Dekhein ge" during the anti-CAA protests in India In the winter last year. They showed me a translation of this poem in Bengali.
See below. This inclusiveness differentiates West Bengali culture from ethno-linguistic chauvinism which borders on fascist racism .
This is one of several Bengali versions of Amra Dekhbo ( translated version of Faiz's poem)

I am sorry but I don't see this inclusiveness in the Oyee paar Bangla
(The Bengal on the other side )

Indeed,
there's one too many Ummah brotherhood lot among Pakistanis too, my family is full of them. don't get me wrong, I feel it too, the Ummah thing, but not at the cost of my thing, Pakistan.

Agree, and the last people who should be lecturing us on the Ummah are "you know who ".

 

[TNT]

Ever heard of 2 nation theory?

Tell that to brown saabs who want togo back thousands of years in search of their identity and owning some indus, stone age ppl who may or maynot have survived the invaders.

 

[Apprentice]

Absolutely !
If we recite the Kalma-e-shahada as we breathe our last we are shaheed . Personal religious freedom and choice is sacrosanct. It is the fundamental human right of the soldier. All modern armed forces in world uphold these rights to fighting men. The USA has imams ( rank of captain as for chaplains ), in the armed forces which guarantee fighting men of Muslim faith not only their last rites, and but their day to day spiritual and religious guidance. Their spiritual needs attended to, the fighting men in the US armed forces are welded together in solidarity into the most formidable fighting force in the world.

If the US armed forces could accommodate the religious needs of such a small portion of it's fighting men, then surely as a majority of our fighting men are Muslims we should have all requirements to fulfill their spiritual needs and we do. Secularism does not mean denying individuals their fundamental human right of the freedom of worship.

Pakistani soldiers have achieved martyrdom in other wars when Pakistan did not even exist, including World War 1, World War 2. Even today their names in glory are inscribed in the India Gate monument in Delhi, which even the Hindutva regime has so far not erased. Pakistani soldiers died in our Civil War fighting fellow Muslims, and thousands have died fighting our War on Terror. Pakistani soldiers have died during UN peace keeping operations. So far as our armed forces are concerned, they are all shaheeds and remembered with honor. We don't know what Pilot Officer Rashid Minhas's last words were when he fought to save his plane from being hijacked by a traitor who incidentally was a Muslim too. Rashid Minhas is a shaheed. because he died for the nation.
Bottom line:
I am not promoting aggressive atheistic secularism. A fighting person can shout whatever he or she wants, to sustain courage and determination. The most difficult time for any person is to know one is going to die.
Our armed forces are automatically Islamic simply by virtue of the manpower constitution. But our armed forces are not unique that way, and we have been engaged in fighting other similar "Islamic" forces.

We also have a tiny tiny fraction of non-Muslims in our armed forces ( Christians, Parsis, Sikhs, Hindus ) . The dedication, courage and sacrifice these men and women have shown have matched the loyalty of their Muslim comrades in arms. They fought and died for a nation they loved above their own lives. They are shaheeds as well.

There were non-Muslims (Jews) who fought in the army of Hazrat Muhammad sallalahu alayhi wassalam in the battle of Uhud. They were never called shaheed when they died. I don't think you understand the concept of "shaheed." Only a Muslim can be one.

 

[Baibars_1260]

There were non-Muslims (Jews) who fought in the army of Hazrat Muhammad sallalahu alayhi wassalam in the battle of Uhud. They were never called shaheed when they died. I don't think you understand the concept of "shaheed." Only a Muslim can be one.

(We are deviating from the topic but I will give you this one)

Agree,
Which is why those who won the Civil War against us have put up "Shaheed " Minars in honor of their shaheeds since they were Muslims as well.
Then of course there were Muslim shaheeds at Karbala but let's not discuss that...

 

[Apprentice]

(We are deviating from the topic but I will give you this one)

Agree,
Which is why those who won the Civil War against us have put up "Shaheed " Minars in honor of their shaheeds since they were Muslims as well.
Then of course there were Muslim shaheeds at Karbala but let's not discuss that...

Those who "won" the civil war were traitors who deserved death penalty for high treason.

 

[peagle]

Will tease you again. Bloody Mary, Tomato juice and Smirnoff's with Worcestershire sauce, and the rim of the glass laced with salt...
But I will never convert you on this...

Actually I like the "idea" of a Bloody Mary, mind you, just the idea, but I hate tomato juice. It sounds like it should work, but I'll let you guys enjoy it.

Hum Dekhein ge

Yeh it sounds nice, suppose the music and lyrical tone helps you along, especially if you have heard the original. To this day it shivers through my body, each time I hear it, and it make it so much sweeter knowing how it was recorded.
In defiance, live audience, front of the world, and the crowds are swept along with the passion, I swear my eyes are watering just writing this lol
This in my opinion is the essence of being a Pakistani, full of love but defiant to the last lol, we are not an easy lot to live with, but hey, what you going to do.

I am sorry but I don't see this inclusiveness in the Oyee paar Bangla
(The Bengal on the other side )

lets agree to disagree on this one,
I was born after 1971, but I cannot help how I feel about them.
Logic dictates, that separation was inevitable, so that doesn't bother me at all, it is what it is, hard to explain.

"you know who "

I think there is more of the Ummah brigade in Pakistan then anywhere else in the world,
we've help the,
North Africans
Arabs
Bosnians
Azeri's
Iranians
bloody Afghans, I have less then zero respect for this lot now,
and probably so many others we don't know about yet,

But no one remembers, and probably they don't care either,
although it feels good having helped them, but feels bitter about the lack of gratitude, and the vile hate in return.
SO, enough is enough, put up fences, dig ditches, place radars and cameras,
just keep them out, east, west north and south, and time to look after ourselves,
everyone else, can go to hell.

Except Kashmiris, just to be clear lol they come even before Pakistan, without an ounce of a doubt.

 

[CatSultan]

Why don't people realize that you can be pro-pakistani and pro-islam at the same time. That is the reason we created the ISLAMIC republic of Pakistan in the first place.

 

[Mirzali Khan]

There were non-Muslims (Jews) who fought in the army of Hazrat Muhammad sallalahu alayhi wassalam in the battle of Uhud. They were never called shaheed when they died. I don't think you understand the concept of "shaheed." Only a Muslim can be one.

Why do we call Bhagat Singh Shaheed then?

 

[Itachi]

We are Pakistan's First ....

It is necessary now as never before to emphasize our identity.

We are Pakistanis, dwellers of Sindh, Baluchistan, KPK, Gilgit, Baltistan, Punjab and Azad Kashmir. We are defined by a common cultural thread of Saraiki linking our provinces and our peoples.
Ours is an ancient culture going back to the dawn of civilization established in the Indus River Valley 5400 years ago. We have evolved over the centuries absorbing other cultures and religions.

Over the last 50 years our cultural and national identity has been transformed and redefined.
We are redefining our cultural traditions to as they were centuries back with deep roots to Central Asia and the Middle East. In dress, language, and cuisine we are now different than we were 50 years back. Few nations in the world have culturally transformed so rapidly.

To further redefine it is necessary to emphasize who we are NOT...
Pakistanis are Not :

1. "Indian" Muslims - We are not part of "India", and yes a majority of our
population is Muslim, but religion is not the only defining feature of our national
identity.
We have no connection with the Muslim population of "India" as defined by its
territory today.

2. "West" Pakistanis - There is no "East" or "West" Pakistan but simply Pakistan.


3. "South" Asians- Pakistanis are Asians and our population similarity is with West or Central
Asia.

What do PDF members think?

Are the other South Asian populations at all relevant to us?

Pakistaniyat and Pakistani Nationalism will only lead to the ruin of Pakistan. Pakistan will be next on the chopping block after Iran & Turkey. By that time, it'll be Pakistan vs NATO, India & US.

You guys will be squashed like little ants. Just like Iraq, Syria, Libya and others.

But, if you gather strength from Islam then your brothers from across the world will come help you. Guys like you will die and the soil of Pakistan will be cleansed of any impurity like that of your thought.

Why don't people realize that you can be pro-pakistani and pro-islam at the same time. That is the reason we created the ISLAMIC republic of Pakistan in the first place.

These guys maybe pro-Pakistani but they aren't pro-Muslim/Islam.

And if they aren't then they'll be the first ones to run off the battlefield like cucks and cowards.

Just how Saddam Hussein's troops surrendered en masse.

 

[Baibars_1260]

Pakistaniyat and Pakistani Nationalism will only lead to the ruin of Pakistan. Pakistan will be next on the chopping block after Iran & Turkey. By that time, it'll be Pakistan vs NATO, India & US.

You guys will be squashed like little ants. Just like Iraq, Syria, Libya and others.

But, if you gather strength from Islam then your brothers from across the world will come help you. Guys like you will die and the soil of Pakistan will be cleansed of any impurity like that of your thought.



View attachment 708180


These guys maybe pro-Pakistani but they aren't pro-Muslim/Islam.

And if they aren't then they'll be the first ones to run off the battlefield like cucks and cowards.

Just how Saddam Hussein's troops surrendered en masse.

دعاوں کاشکریہ

برق گرتی ہے تو بیچارے مسلمانوں پر

Thank you for wishing my nation
" so well" and thank you for predicting a Saddam like " mass surrender "

The winners of our Civil War who
trumped us with their nationalism have no such fears of the future, and incidentally they are Muslims.
But divine punishment may yet come...

The fact that Turkey survived an invasion from 8 countries including the British and French Empires is of-course fiction because in the end they were punished by the Almighty...
Today as a divine punishment Turkey's engineering and defense industries stand out as second only to my nation in the Muslim world and influence wars in Azerbaijan, Bosnia,Syria, and Libya ...All divine punishment for their nationalism.

Iran survived chemical warfare, arms embargoes, an invasion by a western backed poodle and rose to become a nuclear and missile power was punishment by the Almighty... As it takes on the ISIS warlords in Syria and the Zionists.
Surely they will suffer divine punishment for being bad Muslims.

Who are good non-nationalist true Muslims who put Allah ( s.a.t) first and nation afterwards?

https://cms.qz.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/ap_17140648366652.jpg?quality=75&strip=all&w=410&h=273

 

[Itachi]

Thank you for wishing my nation
" so well" and thank you for predicting a Saddam like " mass surrender "

The winners of our Civil War who
trumped us with their nationalism have no such fears of the future, and incidentally they are Muslims.
But divine punishment may yet come...

The fact that Turkey survived an invasion from 8 countries including the British and French Empires is of-course fiction because in the end they were punished by the Almighty...
Today as a divine punishment Turkey's engineering and defense industries stand out as second only to my nation in the Muslim world and influence wars in Azerbaijan, Bosnia,Syria, and Libya ...All divine punishment for their nationalism.


View attachment 708181

Iran survived chemical warfare, arms embargoes, an invasion by a western backed poodle and rose to become a nuclear and missile power was punishment by the Almighty... As it takes on the ISIS warlords in Syria and the Zionists.
Surely they will suffer divine punishment for being bad Muslims.

Who are good non-nationalist true Muslims who put Allah ( s.a.t) first and nation afterwards?

https://cms.qz.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/ap_17140648366652.jpg?quality=75&strip=all&w=410&h=273

Yep, Turkey got what was coming for it. Even today, they are what they are because they chose Islam. If they were nationalists like Mustafa Kemal.....Turkey wouldn't be in Syria or Libya.

Pakistani nationalists on the other hand couldn't even take Kashmir for the last 70 years.......heck, they lost East Pakistan!

You wanna lose West Pakistan too?? Go ahead. Give it a try kid.

 

[Baibars_1260]

Yep, Turkey got what was coming for it. Even today, they are what they are because they chose Islam. If they were nationalists like Mustafa Kemal.....Turkey wouldn't be in Syria or Libya.

Pakistani nationalists on the other hand couldn't even take Kashmir for the last 70 years.......heck, they lost East Pakistan!

You wanna lose West Pakistan too?? Go ahead. Give it a try kid.

Wasted my sarcasm on you;
being keyboard happy you didn't even click on the link.
(Make a historical and political argument not a religious one.
Forum rules prohibit religious discussions. )

You conveniently skipped why we lost the Civil War in 1971.. (But dyslexia is a common affliction...)

In case you noticed the Kashmiris are basing their struggle on Nationalism not Islam and they shout " Azaadi " not the takbeer. Which is why I don't support a military solution to Kashmir. It should be left to fester. If there had been real support from
Kashmiris in the valley we would have taken the territory in 1947-1948 and again in 1965. There is a Kashmiri nationalism headed by the Abdullahs and Mufti Sayeeds that have worked against Pakistan for decades and in both wars their collaboration with India resulted in the capture and killing of hundreds of Pakistani soldiers. The Pahadi speaking Kashmiris from Muzaffarabad and Mirpur, are distinct from the Kashmiri and Dogri speaking population of Srinagar and Jammu. They are only using us as the East Bengalis used us in 1947 to establish a foothold on their territory for a future independent Kashmir state.

If ever a Marxist government comes to power in India they will hand the Kashmir Valley over a platter, and watch the fun , as these very "Mujahids" turn their guns on us just as half the Afghan's are willing to slaughter us for their Pashtun Nationalism.

India never invaded East Pakistan in 1965 despite favorable logistics, They bided their time knowing that Bengali nationalism will trump "Islamic Unity" shortly just as Arab Nationalism had ripped apart a 600 year Ottoman Empire just five decades earlier. Their calculations proved correct.

Turkey would have been cut to a hundred pieces and enslaved if
Arab Nationalist collusion with Western Imperialism had been successfully, and had its way. Turkish Nationalism saved the nation.
It was secular Turkish nationalism under Mustafa Kamal that saved Turkey as we know it today.

The only " surrender " we have seen was on 16th December 1971, thanks to our innocence that Bengali Nationalism is a myth and we are all devout Muslims. Our armed forces had the foresight not to fight to the "last bullet and last man" for a land that didn't want us.
East Pakistan should have been kicked off in 1947. It was indefensible with a restive hostile population and was not worth the life of a single Pakistani soldier.

Your beating the Ummah solidarity drum has no basis in history and shows a remarkable ignorance of the latter.
The fitna wars (656–661 CE), so soon after the advent of Islam and later the Qamaratian sack of Mecca in 930 C.E. shows how fragile the Ummah is ...
We won't even go to present events why Qatar and Saudi Arabia nearly went to war with each other..,
Or the fact the original name for the cradle of Islam was Hejaz which has now been corrupted to a "Saudi Arabia "; the personal property of the chieftain of one Bedouin tribe and his family.

Know your history... kid