Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[PAFAce]

So let us see---SU 30---not as potent as F 22----current F 16's in Paf----same difference in proportion of capability---let me give paf the benefit of the doubt----let us reduce the numbers to half----let us say 10:1 in favour of SU 30's----10 pak F 16's lost to everyone of the SU 30's.

Sir----just to shoot down 10 su 30's----current paf would loose a 100 planes----if not a hunderd---then let us say 80 planes---which is about 30 % of paf inventory---all high end.

Sir----with 30 % total losses---of its aircraft---any air force gets to its death throes----they are finished----caput----gone. But then we only have 48 of the F 16's---now please remember I am not talking about the blk 52's or the MLU's. Even 5:1 in favour of SU 30's is a killer deal---man machine or anything else.

Sure is a worrying picture. In a war of attrition, the advantage is always with the larger force. But, we must also consider that an Indo-Pak war will not be based on attrition. The next war is predicted to be sudden, quick, violent. Speed, flexibility and agility will be key players, and these are factors that always benefit the smaller unit. This most likely means that, in the next war, not every aircraft will see combat, particularly on the Indian side. Of course, the fact that we do not maintain a no-first-use policy on our nuclear arsenal will ensure an attrition war never develops.

Now, that's just general talk. Let's get more specific. The IAF has a significant BVR advantage over the PAF. Both the Soviets and the Americans put great emphasis on BVR development late into the Cold War, along with other long-range detection and engagement technologies, and that development still continues. But, there is one very significant difference between those types of potential conflicts and ours. Pakistan and India are neighbors, our land meets.

According to aviation experts, including the air-combat author Mike Spick, capabilities like ob-board Beyond Visual Range detection, supercruise, loiter-time etc. lose much of their advantages in a scenario where the two opposing forces are close together. Other aspects, both real and abstract, such as rate of climb of interceptors, operational readiness, logistics etc. become that much more important. So, there is most definitely a silver lining. We still stand a good shot at nullifying their advantages in the air.

Again, if we consider close combat, Indian Thrust Vectoring Su-30MKIs will be formidable, and so will their Mig-29s. But in that scenario as well, we must consider that the F-16 still remains the greatest conventional dogfighter of all time. This certainly doesn't mean our F-16s will go looking for a fair one-on-one fight with the Su-30s, they will try to tip the scales as much as possible in their favour, potentially by "jumping" IAF aircraft once they've crossed into Pakistani airspace. Strategy comes into play, but again, the sky is not completely black.

See, I'm not trying to argue against your point, it remains valid. I also agree with it, to a very large degree. I am just trying to say that the situation is not as dire as you portray. There is still method behind the madness. Of course, in about half-a-decade, we'll have some tech at least comparable to what the Indians will have at the time, so much of our debate will become obsolete. As you've said, Block 52s are a need of the hour for us, a top-notch proven and reliable system that we're already very familiar with. 18 Block 52s will make a dent, but if the option is still viable, we should definitely go for the 18 more. But for the time being, things aren't ideal, but they could be worse.

 

[blain2]

Hi,

I believe after 20 or 30 F 16's were shot down when one of them sneaked throughto takle out the F 22.

So let us see---SU 30---not as potent as F 22----current F 16's in Paf----same difference in proportion of capability---let me give paf the benefit of the doubt----let us reduce the numbers to half----let us say 10:1 in favour of SU 30's----10 pak F 16's lost to everyone of the SU 30's.

Sir----just to shoot down 10 su 30's----current paf would loose a 100 planes----if not a hunderd---then let us say 80 planes---which is about 30 % of paf inventory---all high end.

Sir----with 30 % total losses---of its aircraft---any air force gets to its death throes----they are finished----caput----gone. But then we only have 48 of the F 16's---now please remember I am not talking about the blk 52's or the MLU's. Even 5:1 in favour of SU 30's is a killer deal---man machine or anything else.

Why is the ratio 10:1 or even 5:1? On what basis? I can tell you one thing. When F-16 MATV was flown and evaluated, they found out that on the basis of maneuverability it was better than the other conventional aircraft, but when the odds were two against one, the improvements of the TVC were of no significant benefit.

These were the days when the adversary used to fly without any HMS or high offboresight AAMs. Gone are those days. The TVC equipped aircraft will fly against Pakistani aircraft that will allow the F-16 pilots (as an example) to cue their weapons against the MKI at angles from positions that would impact the ability of the MKI to do many of the things it showcases.

I doubt that we will see mix-ups as was the norm in the "Mig Alley" of the Korean war era where sometimes 20-30 aircraft used to mix up in dog fighting. Air combat in the future will be more dispersed, at longer ranges where early detection and more effective employment of assets will curtail quite a bit of this close in combat.

On its own, the F-16 holds certain inherent advantages if equipped appropriately with the proper sensors and weapons. If Pakistan does the same thing with the JF-17 and the Western avionics and weapons package then one will find that the use of the MKI by the other side would be hampered by many considerations, at least some of which I have tried to highlight.

The points about attrition are valid. However no Pakistani defence planner would allow the aircraft to be employed in such a manner which would result in the MKIs having a field day attaining 10:1 ratios. Beyond all the hype, the reality of war comes to fore and this reality is that PAF is neither the Iraqi Air Force and neither are the Indians the USAF. Think about the challenges that PAF had to face flying state of the art F-16s against the Soviet and Afghan airforce aircraft. It was never an easy kill despite the fact that F-16s were at the pinnacle of performance compared to anything the Afghans flew. So PAF's tactics and training doctrine are at par with those of the folks across the border. I do not see such one-sided outcome in any case (as long as the current AFDP bears fruition).

 

[wild peace]

Infact ' man behind the machine' does matter otherwise there was no way a F-16C was able to beat F-22 at least once in mock fights.

Hi,

I believe after 20 or 30 F 16's were shot down when one of them sneaked throughto takle out the F 22.

So let us see---SU 30---not as potent as F 22----current F 16's in Paf----same difference in proportion of capability---let me give paf the benefit of the doubt----let us reduce the numbers to half----let us say 10:1 in favour of SU 30's----10 pak F 16's lost to everyone of the SU 30's.

Sir----just to shoot down 10 su 30's----current paf would loose a 100 planes----if not a hunderd---then let us say 80 planes---which is about 30 % of paf inventory---all high end.

Sir----with 30 % total losses---of its aircraft---any air force gets to its death throes----they are finished----caput----gone. But then we only have 48 of the F 16's---now please remember I am not talking about the blk 52's or the MLU's. Even 5:1 in favour of SU 30's is a killer deal---man machine or anything else.[/QUOTE]

Sir
with all due respect You are talking about PAF .So u mean they all sit down under the black or blue sky and enjoy the dog fight or competition between both....no sir you are wrong here fighting specs are not measured like this.Their will be better plan to counter greater specs.

 

[PakShaheen79]

Hi,

I believe after 20 or 30 F 16's were shot down when one of them sneaked throughto takle out the F 22.

So let us see---SU 30---not as potent as F 22----current F 16's in Paf----same difference in proportion of capability---let me give paf the benefit of the doubt----let us reduce the numbers to half----let us say 10:1 in favour of SU 30's----10 pak F 16's lost to everyone of the SU 30's.

Sir----just to shoot down 10 su 30's----current paf would loose a 100 planes----if not a hunderd---then let us say 80 planes---which is about 30 % of paf inventory---all high end.

Sir----with 30 % total losses---of its aircraft---any air force gets to its death throes----they are finished----caput----gone. But then we only have 48 of the F 16's---now please remember I am not talking about the blk 52's or the MLU's. Even 5:1 in favour of SU 30's is a killer deal---man machine or anything else.

I can't remember how many F-16s were there in that particular mock fight but what i definitely know is they were no where 20 to 30.

Again the scenario u depict is only possible when pilots setting in PAF F-16s don't bother to do anything other than wait for being shooted down by MKIs.

I think we both remember recent event when one of IAF,s MKI pic was shown to US convoy by Kiyani and was told to tell Indian to remain in limit. If MKI are that invincible how come an ages old F-16 was able to lock that? Any Idea.... I believe it was again "Man Behind Machine" that matters.

Now i Agree with your point of lower number and IAF's share size in future when they were fielding MRCAs and MKIs but again PAF will be doing same with JF-17s,FC-20s and F-16s. I also agree that F-16M are need of hour but my point is this is not F-16s which are problematic this is Yankees who would be pain in the neck after they come to know that PAF depends heavily on them for its large F-16s fleet.

People here always got worry about ONLY 18 new F-16s I wounder how easily they forget current fleet of 40+ F-16s which would also got on par with current models through MLUs.

Hope this will clarify my point a bit more.

Regards

 

[fatman17]

5 Sep 1989
Pakistan orders 60 F-16s (Peace Gate IV).

Black Day in Pak-US Relations!

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

First of all---su 30 pilot would be stupid to get in close combat range---he will launch at 30---35miles the first and second missile, then acquire another target and launch two, then acquire the 3rd and laucnh two and then acquire the 4th and launch two shots---and then scoot---the last shot would be close to 20 miles. The kill ratio of the russian missiles at that range is pretty good. Now that the su 30 has unloaded---it will turn and run home to fight another day.

What can the paf pilot do---he is not going to hide---he is not going to run---he will lay down his life---so that you and I can look good and say---hey, look at our pilot---he gave away his life---but he didnot run---bravo---.

Let us be techincal over here---forget our compassions for the flag for a moment---it is time for hard analysis---with a cool mind---and the time of battle is today---now---we fight a war with the weapons systems that were in our arsenal yesterday---not what we will be getting later on tomorrow.


Now coming to the F 22 and F 16 kill---actuall it was either 35 f 16 killed or 50 killed before one of them got a shot at the F 22.

Many a times I have explained---the the su 30 in the sights of f 16 was a set up---paf and pakistan were lucky that our pilot had the discipline to hold the trigger---and the controller the common sense to keep incharge.


I will tell you what the black day truly was----it was the first time we ordered the F 16's----paf had the option of getting the mirage 2000's or the f 16---I am talking about the first purchase---the mirage m2k was an equally competent fighter aircraft---but paf failed to analyze the future and strategic implications of the purchase---.

India was in the bad books of the u s of a---so it would never get the f 16's in the 80's---the only other high tech high maneuverable plane that was available was the M2k that india could get its hands upon.

If pakistan would have chosen the M2k right from day one and rejected the F 16 for strategical reasons---india had nowhere to go but to stick with the russians---m2k would have done everything that the paf wanted it to do---with the purchase of m2k---paf would have sealed off any purchase to india either from france or the u s---u s was already sealed. India's high tech purchase would have been neutered----but we left the flanks open and the whole army passed through.

 

[PakShaheen79]

Hi,

First of all---su 30 pilot would be stupid to get in close combat range---he will launch at 30---35miles the first and second missile, then acquire another target and launch two, then acquire the 3rd and laucnh two and then acquire the 4th and launch two shots---and then scoot---the last shot would be close to 20 miles. The kill ratio of the russian missiles at that range is pretty good. Now that the su 30 has unloaded---it will turn and run home to fight another day.

What can the paf pilot do---he is not going to hide---he is not going to run---he will lay down his life---so that you and I can look good and say---hey, look at our pilot---he gave away his life---but he didnot run---bravo---.

Thanks for reply mate

First of all PAF pilots will stupid to give a chance to IAF pilot to not to reach in WVR ranges as it will be a head on combat so both planes will be heading towards each others hence calculation of distance will not only depend on IAF's speed but also on F-16's speed and further more IAF will never send in an MKI alone to combat with PAF have 3 to 4 vectoring towards it knowing that PAF F-16's originally got upgraded APG-66s with AIM-7 SPARROWS. (Though PAF will never admit it but IAF knew this that's why no real adventure done ever )

I Don't know kill ratio of russian missile i know that Russian are still behind US in jamming tech.

PAF pilot will lay down his life after giving a good fight and if that happen I can bet my life that PAF pilot will not the only one going down.

Now coming to the F 22 and F 16 kill---actuall it was either 35 f 16 killed or 50 killed before one of them got a shot at the F 22.

Not going to reply until i found my original source about this.

Many a times I have explained---the the su 30 in the sights of f 16 was a set up---paf and pakistan were lucky that our pilot had the discipline to hold the trigger---and the controller the common sense to keep incharge.

Ok it was a setup but how PAF and Pakistan was lucky in that incident this is something beyond me...mate if Indian were that prepared for an all out attack we had seen something REAL over Muredke other than a mere stint. Why Indian were asking US to ask Kiyani to please let us strike once to bring down temperature in Indian Janta?? Any thoughts... Mark my words, the day Indian felt they can take on Pakistan and can walk over they will not wait anyone not even US (Similar happened when Israel strike Iraqi nuclear power plant when Israel have all the preparation, technology, tactics and advantage and Iraqi had no idea; Here in Indo Pak scenario situation is way different and PAF is busy in denying any such advantage which Israeli had over Iraq in 1982)

Russian missile may have good kill ratio but that is a relative term there are lots of other factor in any air combat until and unless you are not on a gaming console

Let us be techincal over here---forget our compassions for the flag for a moment---it is time for hard analysis---with a cool mind---and the time of battle is today---now---we fight a war with the weapons systems that were in our arsenal yesterday---not what we will be getting later on tomorrow.

Time of battle was almost certain some 10 months back and it was in 2002 when PAF was even worse condition... we know that it was Indian choice not to attack Pakistan on both account not our's. Please don't tell me India restraint just for human rights.

I will tell you what the black day truly was----it was the first time we ordered the F 16's----paf had the option of getting the mirage 2000's or the f 16---I am talking about the first purchase---the mirage m2k was an equally competent fighter aircraft---but paf failed to analyze the future and strategic implications of the purchase---.

Please correct your history, Peace Gate I for 40 F-16s were signed in December 1981 where as M2K entered French Air force service in 1984 I think it is enough to explain the reason PAF choose F-16 as it was only available choice among two under discussion.

 

[BoggedDown]

As I have stated already it many times here as well as in other forums, PAF's choice of F-16s were right one. It was right decision in 1981, correct decision in 1989 as well as best decision in 2005. Though PAF should have immediately stopped paying for F16s when those were embargoed. But the mistake they made is to stick to only one option. PAF should have also ordered immediately Mirage 2k when they were available and offered quite cheap in early 80s as well. Also they should have ordered Mirage2Ks when F16s were embargoed. This would provide PAF a second option and reduce the risk of sole dependency on USA. As many air forces do operate multiple type of fighter jets with quite similar capabilities e.g Greece, Taiwan etc operate F16s as well as Mirage 2k. It is common practice even today for example in telecom operators not to trust only one supplier because than they the sole vendor will try to dictate terms and behave as monopolist bully. Pakistan and Pakistanis in general should learn to "not to put all eggs in one basket" rather should always have a second option and a balanced relationship with multiple sources. I was always with the opinion that if PAF had chosen Mirage2Ks as second option in 80s, USA would not dared to embargo those F16s as it would not have any effect in PAF capabilities and PAF could always order more Mirages to bridge the gap. In current scenario PAF finally learned to go for second option by selecting Chinese fighters as well as more F16s. But I would hope they see the vision as well to keep an european option open to replace the USA when our F16s need replacement in next decades.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Scenarios create bravado---no nation is sure if they will take the other one down just like that. One thing leads to the other---creates the ripple effect---which builds into a small wave---you shoot the su 30---you create a tidal wave---it is the pride and joy of india---india could care less after that point.


" First of all PAF pilots will stupid to give a chance to IAF pilot to not to reach in WVR ranges as it will be a head on combat so both planes will be heading towards each others hence calculation of distance will not only depend on IAF's speed but also on F-16's speed and further more IAF will never send in an MKI alone to combat with PAF have 3 to 4 vectoring towards it knowing that PAF F-16's originally got upgraded APG-66s with AIM-7 SPARROWS. (Though PAF will never admit it but IAF knew this that's why no real adventure done ever )"


Here paf pilot has no options, but to head into the 'valley of death'---it is not a matter of chance----it is a matter of choice---the su 30's would intentionally refrain from making wvr contact----why would they need to---they each carry 8 bvr's---which can shoot around 50 miles plus range---.

When I stated that the su 30 would launch its missiles and scoot---it didnot mean that there would be only one---there maybe 2 or 3 or 4---whatever the iaf felt like.

You still don't get it----once the su 30 locks its bvr and launches it missiles at an incoming fighter---there is not much the target fighter can do---either try to evade the missile or pray that somehow it misses him---it is not going to be one missile---they are going to be 2 for each target.

Now there is a talk of jamming---what jamming---the russian missile may not be good at the extremme end of their ranges----but within the 60--80 % of the max range---they are deadly---.

The indians always ask for the impossible---to keep pakistan on the back foot all the time---to keep them in an explaining position rather than a dictating position first of all---and secondly---infuriate the paks so much by that demand they may indulge into doing something stupid.

India ordered the mirage in 84 and got them on a fast track in 85---if paf had ordered 2 sqdrns and diversified---india could have been choked on the order---rather than haveing 2 superior diversified aircraft in their inventory---they chose one and decided to let the enemy get the other one---there thinking was---we are superior---we will take care of the enemy.

 

[aanshu001]

I Don't know kill ratio of russian missile i know that Russian are still behind US in jamming tech.

Indian are using Israelis jamming pods which are believe to best (at least you take equal which PAF use).


Not going to reply until i found my original source about this.


Russian missile may have good kill ratio but that is a relative term there are lots of other factor in any air combat until and unless you are not on a gaming console

one thing which need to be consider the radars which bend in favor of IAF Green Pine, PESA, current upgradation of MIGs & M2K (Just leave AWACS) A2A combat is friction of seconds and IAF had favor.

In near future Mig-29 & M2k (both upgraded) will be more then current PAF F-16. with better radar if you are not agree with missiles (both French & Russian).

 

[wild peace]

Hi,

Scenarios create bravado---no nation is sure if they will take the other one down just like that. One thing leads to the other---creates the ripple effect---which builds into a small wave---you shoot the su 30---you create a tidal wave---it is the pride and joy of india---india could care less after that point.


" First of all PAF pilots will stupid to give a chance to IAF pilot to not to reach in WVR ranges as it will be a head on combat so both planes will be heading towards each others hence calculation of distance will not only depend on IAF's speed but also on F-16's speed and further more IAF will never send in an MKI alone to combat with PAF have 3 to 4 vectoring towards it knowing that PAF F-16's originally got upgraded APG-66s with AIM-7 SPARROWS. (Though PAF will never admit it but IAF knew this that's why no real adventure done ever )"


Here paf pilot has no options, but to head into the 'valley of death'---it is not a matter of chance----it is a matter of choice---the su 30's would intentionally refrain from making wvr contact----why would they need to---they each carry 8 bvr's---which can shoot around 50 miles plus range---.

When I stated that the su 30 would launch its missiles and scoot---it didnot mean that there would be only one---there maybe 2 or 3 or 4---whatever the iaf felt like.

You still don't get it----once the su 30 locks its bvr and launches it missiles at an incoming fighter---there is not much the target fighter can do---either try to evade the missile or pray that somehow it misses him---it is not going to be one missile---they are going to be 2 for each target.

Now there is a talk of jamming---what jamming---the russian missile may not be good at the extremme end of their ranges----but within the 60--80 % of the max range---they are deadly---.

The indians always ask for the impossible---to keep pakistan on the back foot all the time---to keep them in an explaining position rather than a dictating position first of all---and secondly---infuriate the paks so much by that demand they may indulge into doing something stupid.

India ordered the mirage in 84 and got them on a fast track in 85---if paf had ordered 2 sqdrns and diversified---india could have been choked on the order---rather than haveing 2 superior diversified aircraft in their inventory---they chose one and decided to let the enemy get the other one---there thinking was---we are superior---we will take care of the enemy.

What about this.....Sir

 

[Arsalan]

Happy Defence Day to all of you,

May Pakistan Live long,
Inshallah!

http://www.defence.pk/forums/national-political-issues/33280-happy-defence-day.html#post471814

regards!

 

[Engr786]

May any one notify the basic difference between JF-17 & F-16D(technically)

 

[Arsalan]

the basic difference is:
they are two different planes,,

regards!

 

[r0ck]

Thanks a lot for the videos wild peace.

Man the newscaster starts jumping to conclusions about the person's background. As a military aviation professional, he was just sharing his views about the performance of the IAF.

Nonetheless very interesting video with regards to the above discussed so-called 10:1 or even 5:1 kill ratio with the PAF. .....