Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[PakShaheen79]

Scenarios create bravado---no nation is sure if they will take the other one down just like that. One thing leads to the other---creates the ripple effect---which builds into a small wave---you shoot the su 30---you create a tidal wave---it is the pride and joy of india---india could care less after that point.

Sir, to be honest.. I also hate drawing some imaginative scenario but was just replying what you posted in your earlier post. We both know air combat is not as simple as it looks on ground.

You still don't get it----once the su 30 locks its bvr and launches it missiles at an incoming fighter---there is not much the target fighter can do---either try to evade the missile or pray that somehow it misses him---it is not going to be one missile---they are going to be 2 for each target.

I have got you point sir.. only problem I have with what you are saying is the way you write off PAF completely in that scenario where we are still unaware where all this air combat will be taken place, above Pakistani grounds or inside Indian territory..This one factor alone can change whole completion of scenario.

Now there is a talk of jamming---what jamming---the russian missile may not be good at the extremme end of their ranges----but within the 60--80 % of the max range---they are deadly--

Any reasons IAF is using more and more NON-Russian ECM/ECCM suites on their Russian planes?

The indians always ask for the impossible---to keep pakistan on the back foot all the time---to keep them in an explaining position rather than a dictating position first of all---and secondly---infuriate the paks so much by that demand they may indulge into doing something stupid.

AGREED. 100% there is no doubt after Mumbai drama.

India ordered the mirage in 84 and got them on a fast track in 85---if paf had ordered 2 sqdrns and diversified---india could have been choked on the order---rather than haveing 2 superior diversified aircraft in their inventory---they chose one and decided to let the enemy get the other one---there thinking was---we are superior---we will take care of the enemy.

hmmm... I think we must look after having diversification with F-16,F-15,F-18,A-10,F-14 etc where USAF is heading, Answer is JSF. Joint Strike Fighter.. Why? because it unified the operational requirement of fighter. Different version but same base fighter. Now let's see what PAF choosed in 1981... Original plan was of having more than 110 F-16s in service following same principle of unification and in 1981 no one was thinking about US sanctions on Pakistan which took place in 1990 secondly we can't ignore the size of our economy and modern fighters were and are expensive things. Buying something is one matter and keeping it operational is another. BTW, Pak did opt for F-7Ps in 1988 to have a lower tear of PAF for CAS like operations.

If you ask me, I think Pakistan real failure in planning was a delayed go ahead in JF-17 project, if this could have happen in say 1995 we could have some 2 to 3 operational squadrons in service or may be test flights of Block-II of Thunders.

Let's hope PAF has learned its lesson and will keep an aggressive posture in its future planning. No doubts 1990s is lost decade it is time when IAF took real advantage over PAF technically and now PAF is trying desperately to catch up.

 

[Rank]

 

[PakShaheen79]

May any one notify the basic difference between JF-17 & F-16D(technically)

F-16D has dual cockpit.
Better range
More ordnance
Specialized version for Pilot training/ Ground missions
etc.

Search more on F-16.net

 

[PakShaheen79]

Thanks Stealth for info.

 

[wild peace]

Happy Defence Day to all of you,

May Pakistan Live long,
Inshallah!

 

[wild peace]

The one on the right first with red nose is Delilah.I love its capibalties.
http://defense-update.com/images_new/air_delilah.jpg

 

[wild peace]

 

[wild peace]

F-16D has dual cockpit.
Better range
More ordnance
Specialized version for Pilot training/ Ground missions
etc.

Search more on F-16.net

F-16D Block 52+ Fighting Falcon - Technologies

The two-seat Block 52 F-16D, also known as F-16DJ, is a Block 42 follow-on with more powerful engine models and new weapon options. The US Air Force has integrated the HTS pod in some F-16DJs for suppression of enemy air defenses using the HARM missile. The Block 52 F-16D was deployed in 1991.

http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/mi...ars-000110-TextImage.imindefParstextimage.gif

* Pilot-friendly modern cockpit with colour displays, compatibility with night vision systems, excellent outside visibility and high-g tolerance - all facilitate pilot situation awareness and mission effectiveness

http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/mi...ars-000112-TextImage.imindefParstextimage.gif

* Missionised two-place model with weapon system operator controls in the rear cockpit, plus a dorsal avionics compartment to house a full suite of mission equipment

http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/mi...ars-000114-TextImage.imindefParstextimage.gif

* Advanced modular core avionics provide the processing speed and power to integrate complex systems, with ample room for future upgrades


* Advanced multi-mode radar provides long-range detection and tracking of multiple aerial targets and high-resolution ground mapping and surface target detection and tracking. Supports standoff, all-weather operations with precision weapons


* Compatibility with all forward-looking infrared navigation and targeting pods to provide robust, day/night operations, including laser-guided weapons


* Advanced internal countermeasures suite including threat warning, electronic jamming and auto chaff/flare dispensing


* Optional 600-gal wing tanks and conformal fuel tanks to extend range/payload/persistence capabilities

 

[Arsalan]

what about the current status about MLUz. we have not heared of any procedings, i hope evey thing is on track!

regards!

 

[sancho]

Sir, to be honest.. I also hate drawing some imaginative scenario but was just replying what you posted in your earlier post. We both know air combat is not as simple as it looks on ground.


I have got you point sir.. only problem I have with what you are saying is the way you write off PAF completely in that scenario where we are still unaware where all this air combat will be taken place, above Pakistani grounds or inside Indian territory..This one factor alone can change whole completion of scenario.

There is no need to write off PAF completely, F16 and later J10 are good aircrafts and will be a problem for IAF. Both aircrafts are capable to defend it's airspace but you have to admit that IAF has some clear advantages on their side. The numerical is only one, which is necessary because of the size of India, but more important for PAF is the advantage that IAF has in BVR. Not only that more than 300 fighters are BVR capable, but with the long range radar of MKI combined with datalinks to guide other aircrafts and the induction of the first A50 Phalcon AWACS, they also have a big advantage in situational awareness!
Imo the best chance for them is the close combat, where it can use it's maneuverability and the good t/w ratio. Against Mig 21, 27, Jags and maybe even Mirage 2k it should remain superior, but against Mig 29 and MKI it will be different, specially if 160 of them are pitted aginst around only 40 F16s.

 

[Arsalan]

The numerical is only one, which is necessary because of the size of India, but more important for PAF is the advantage that IAF has in BVR. Not only that more than 300 fighters are BVR capable, but with the long range radar of MKI combined with datalinks to guide other aircrafts and the induction of the first A50 Phalcon AWACS, they also have a big advantage in situational awareness!

agree,
neumerical advantage is not of that much importance as IAF require large number to defend its large territory.
the real threat in past was from the BVR ability which now by the induction of BVRAAM like SD10 and AMRAAM C% is neutralized to some extent. for situational awareness PAF is also on right track with four ERIEYE and four KJ200 to be inducted in comming years!

regards!

 

[r0ck]

Imo the best chance for them is the close combat, where it can use it's maneuverability and the good t/w ratio. Against Mig 21, 27, Jags and maybe even Mirage 2k it should remain superior, but against Mig 29 and MKI it will be different, specially if 160 of them are pitted aginst around only 40 F16s.

And yet India wanted clearence from america, for attacking certain Pakistani sites, after the Mumbai blasts. With all due respect Sir, I can assure you had the situation been as simple as you stated (i.e. 160 Migs & MKIs versus 40 F-16s) there would have been a war a long, long time ago. If, with those numbers and equipment, there is still no war, then IMHO Pakistan Air Force has and is still doing a comparatively remarkable job than the IAF.

 

[PakShaheen79]

There is no need to write off PAF completely, F16 and later J10 are good aircrafts and will be a problem for IAF. Both aircrafts are capable to defend it's airspace but you have to admit that IAF has some clear advantages on their side. The numerical is only one, which is necessary because of the size of India, but more important for PAF is the advantage that IAF has in BVR. Not only that more than 300 fighters are BVR capable, but with the long range radar of MKI combined with datalinks to guide other aircrafts and the induction of the first A50 Phalcon AWACS, they also have a big advantage in situational awareness!
Imo the best chance for them is the close combat, where it can use it's maneuverability and the good t/w ratio. Against Mig 21, 27, Jags and maybe even Mirage 2k it should remain superior, but against Mig 29 and MKI it will be different, specially if 160 of them are pitted aginst around only 40 F16s.

Clearly IAF is enjoying huge technical edge over PAF which BTW is going to fade away in a short period of time. October 09 first Erieye will be in PAF so situational awareness thing will be staled, BVR advantage will also taken care of once AIM-120C handed over in 2010.

But still IAF will enjoy numerical superiority which is also necessary. More fighters can do more sorties in war time. MKI and MRCA are major competitor for PAF fighters right now and have some advantages as mentioned above but again situation will be much much improved as compared to 1990s after induction of F-16M, JF-17, Erieye, ZDK03 and FC-20.

 

[sancho]

And yet India wanted clearence from america, for attacking certain Pakistani sites, after the Mumbai blasts. With all due respect Sir, I can assure you had the situation been as simple as you stated (i.e. 160 Migs & MKIs versus 40 F-16s) there would have been a war a long, long time ago. If, with those numbers and equipment, there is still no war, then IMHO Pakistan Air Force has and is still doing a comparatively remarkable job than the IAF.

US intervenes and hold IAF back to attack Pakistan, which for a change was a good idea of them, cause a war is nothing the people of both countries really want.
Anyway, I think you missunderstood something! I also said that PAF is able to defend it's airspace, specially combined with ground threats it will be risky for IAF to attack. But if, they have some advantages on their side that can't be denied (numerical, technical, BVR).

Clearly IAF is enjoying huge technical edge over PAF which BTW is going to fade away in a short period of time. October 09 first Erieye will be in PAF so situational awareness thing will be staled, BVR advantage will also taken care of once AIM-120C handed over in 2010.

But still IAF will enjoy numerical superiority which is also necessary. More fighters can do more sorties in war time. MKI and MRCA are major competitor for PAF fighters right now and have some advantages as mentioned above but again situation will be much much improved as compared to 1990s after induction of F-16M, JF-17, Erieye, ZDK03 and FC-20.

I can't agree that the technical advantage will be fade away, because even if inducting BVR missiles and Erieye is a good move of PAF to close the gap a bit, the induction of more AWACS (at least 2 more A50 Phalcons, DRDO AWACS from 2012 on), spy sats and MMRCA with new techs and capabilities will make it bigger again.
Even Erieye will have a lot of problems to detect fighters with a RCS below 1, like most of the MMRCA contenders have. It is most likely that IAF will have AMRAAM too, maye even Meteor, possibly SC engines and the latest radars and EWS suits. These are techs that PAF won't get so soon and will give IAF some advantages again, not to forget that next gen fighters are already under development.
That's why imo the technical advantage will remain, whereas the numerical will be reduced in the next few years (during phasing out Mig 21 and inducting LCA/MMRCA).

 

[PakShaheen79]

I can't agree that the technical advantage will be fade away, because even if inducting BVR missiles and Erieye is a good move of PAF to close the gap a bit, the induction of more AWACS (at least 2 more A50 Phalcons, DRDO AWACS from 2012 on), spy sats and MMRCA with new techs and capabilities will make it bigger again.
Even Erieye will have a lot of problems to detect fighters with a RCS below 1, like most of the MMRCA contenders have. It is most likely that IAF will have AMRAAM too, maye even Meteor, possibly SC engines and the latest radars and EWS suits. These are techs that PAF won't get so soon and will give IAF some advantages again, not to forget that next gen fighters are already under development.
That's why imo the technical advantage will remain, whereas the numerical will be reduced in the next few years (during phasing out Mig 21 and inducting LCA/MMRCA).

I used word 'fade away' not finished or eliminate OK. When you talk about at least 2 more A-50 Phalcon why you forget +3 Erieye and+4 ZDK-03?? As far as detecting fighter with RCS 1 I can not agree as Erieye is designed to detect cruise missiles which has usually even less RCS and further more this RCS =1 is archived in clean configuration of fighter and it is not necessary that F-18 or MKI. MIG-29 will have RCS 1 when fully loaded with armament. Only Spy Sat is something which PAF will not able to match in near future rest every thing will be matched. Be it BVR, Advanced Fighters or More AEW platforms.

I didnot count AMRAAM AIM-120Cs as advantage of PAF but a match of IAF capability. SD-10/PL-12 will also be there but India will also have multiple BVR missiles like R-77, R-27, AIM-120Cs etc. so both AFs will have this only difference IAF's distinct advantage of 'only AF armed with BVR in South East Asia' would be matched by PAF.
Pakistan is already in talk with France to get latest EW suite and FCR for JF-17 Thunder. There is no embargo on Pakistan this time around as it was during 1990s.

Yet again PAF or Pakistan for that matter never introduced any conventional and non conventional weapon system in subcontinent other than submarine. It was and is India who brought new weapon systems here and Pakistan acted to get deterrence against these systems. ( Nuclear weapons and their delivery systems are good example of this) So surely Pakistan will have to act once any 5th fighter arrive in skies of subcontinent and we will (Inshallah).

So, All in all technical advantage will fade away in coming years where as numerical advantage will remain with IAF as it is now.