Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[MastanKhan]

I dont know what Entertainment channel you watch in CA but Pakistan was never in a comanding position to milk West for advance Aircrafts. Yes we have many issues and not in an ideal situation but talking specifically about the PAF, rest assured there was never such a scenario where we could have bought a Rafale or any other plane in a jiffy. There are rules, regulations and SOP's to be followed in every procurement. And they come after the Political and strategic relations.

I know your mashAllah above 50; my best wishes and respects. However you might want to rethink on your views. Isnt there a tid bit of Chance that maybe you dont know everything. Maybe the guy in the driving seat knows better than one sitting 1000's ok Km away ?? I am sure they know how to Google the best plane in the world see who makes it and buy when they have money in pocket and permission from Govt.

Hi,

Thank you for your post----who is talking about in a jiffy----. There was 4 1/2 years times to make a decision. For an air force like paf---their analysts should have have been ready on a fastrak to place an order---.

PAF's procurement has been pathetic---their screwups have been momentuous-----. Sitting in the driver's seat and knowing more---my foot---this is the same air force that kept on paying for the F 16's after the sanctions---whereas it should have stopped paying and filed a lawsuit in a u s federal court for breach of contract.

This is the same airforce that went for the best air craft and left the 2ns best aircraft open for purchase by india---ie the mnirage 2 k.

If paf had opted for the Mirage 2 k right from the gitgo---it would have done a coupe de grace on IAF. THe u s was not selling F16's to the indians at that time---and with paf going for the m2k---indians would have opted out.

The proof is in the pudding---the paf has made a fool of the nation of pakistan for many a years---their criminal negligence has caused this branch of the military to be extremely weak.

The 'guy in t he driving seat does not know diddly sh-it'---. When the sanctions were coming---I was in the u s----everyone who was listening to the news that they were coming---every nation knew that sanctions were coming on pakistan---except for PAF.

Buddy---if you work for PAF---don't give too much credit to yourself----. You have miserably failed----. There is a long list of your failures---the nation has given you too much respect---they should have hanged you and your likes for the attack on the air base in karachi and then again for the attack on the base close to islamabad---.

You are lucky to have foold the nation of pakistan and still riding the wave.

 

[raazh]

Hi,

Thank you for your post----who is talking about in a jiffy----. There was 4 1/2 years times to make a decision. For an air force like paf---their analysts should have have been ready on a fastrak to place an order---.

PAF's procurement has been pathetic---their screwups have been momentuous-----. Sitting in the driver's seat and knowing more---my foot---this is the same air force that kept on paying for the F 16's after the sanctions---whereas it should have stopped paying and filed a lawsuit in a u s federal court for breach of contract.

This is the same airforce that went for the best air craft and left the 2ns best aircraft open for purchase by india---ie the mnirage 2 k.

If paf had opted for the Mirage 2 k right from the gitgo---it would have done a coupe de grace on IAF. THe u s was not selling F16's to the indians at that time---and with paf going for the m2k---indians would have opted out.

The proof is in the pudding---the paf has made a fool of the nation of pakistan for many a years---their criminal negligence has caused this branch of the military to be extremely weak.

The 'guy in t he driving seat does not know diddly sh-it'---. When the sanctions were coming---I was in the u s----everyone who was listening to the news that they were coming---every nation knew that sanctions were coming on pakistan---except for PAF.

Buddy---if you work for PAF---don't give too much credit to yourself----. You have miserably failed----. There is a long list of your failures---the nation has given you too much respect---they should have hanged you and your likes for the attack on the air base in karachi and then again for the attack on the base close to islamabad---.

You are lucky to have foold the nation of pakistan and still riding the wave.

I remember from your old posts that you work or workd in the auto industry. And from your logic of buying first best and second best Mirage2K im glad your not in PAF. Mirage2K production is closed now and France has moved on to Rafale. Mean while F16's are still being produced and upgraded to new blocks and we have decades of experience with the machine. As far as new procurements are concerned, PAF has learned to be realistic all through the 90's. There is no tax on dreaming but then you don't get any where also. In my personal opinion; I am glad PAF choose the Chinese path while getting the new F16s in the 2000's. Because by now F16 has become sanctioned proof for us and it offers a lot of what the latest 4.5 gen planes are offering in terms of electronics. Our future is with the Chinese. They might not be at par with the west at the moment, but they are catching up very fast.

Let the ppl who have dedicated their lives for PAF, and have qualified to be at a position in which they are at the moment; decide what is good for their role. I don't work in PAF but do work in pvt defense industry and live in the REAL Pakistan. Yes there have been lapses and we are not perfect but still am proud of all our forces. If you wana hang ppl then you should start in US for the 9/11 security lapses and the Pentagon attack from where all this War On Terror started.

 

[Chanakyaa]

I remember from your old posts that you work or workd in the auto industry. And from your logic of buying first best and second best Mirage2K im glad your not in PAF. Mirage2K production is closed now and France has moved on to Rafale. Mean while F16's are still being produced and upgraded to new blocks and we have decades of experience with the machine. As far as new procurements are concerned, PAF has learned to be realistic all through the 90's. There is no tax on dreaming but then you don't get any where also. In my personal opinion; I am glad PAF choose the Chinese path while getting the new F16s in the 2000's. Because by now F16 has become sanctioned proof for us and it offers a lot of what the latest 4.5 gen planes are offering in terms of electronics. Our future is with the Chinese. They might not be at par with the west at the moment, but they are catching up very fast.

Let the ppl who have dedicated their lives for PAF, and have qualified to be at a position in which they are at the moment; decide what is good for their role. I don't work in PAF but do work in pvt defense industry and live in the REAL Pakistan. Yes there have been lapses and we are not perfect but still am proud of all our forces. If you wana hang ppl then you should start in US for the 9/11 security lapses and the Pentagon attack from where all this War On Terror started.

I Think You Missed Three Key Things Above :

#1. Respect for a PDF Veteran

#2. The Fact that Perhaps Israeli Airforce - The Most Professional Air force that used the SAME Mirages and Did Marvels !

#3. By Your Own Logic, Mirages have demerit that French have Moved to Rafale, so what ?
Even US is using F16s as Targets !

 

[MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n]

I remember from your old posts that you work or workd in the auto industry. And from your logic of buying first best and second best Mirage2K im glad your not in PAF. Mirage2K production is closed now and France has moved on to Rafale. Mean while F16's are still being produced and upgraded to new blocks and we have decades of experience with the machine. As far as new procurements are concerned, PAF has learned to be realistic all through the 90's. There is no tax on dreaming but then you don't get any where also. In my personal opinion; I am glad PAF choose the Chinese path while getting the new F16s in the 2000's. Because by now F16 has become sanctioned proof for us and it offers a lot of what the latest 4.5 gen planes are offering in terms of electronics. Our future is with the Chinese. They might not be at par with the west at the moment, but they are catching up very fast.

Let the ppl who have dedicated their lives for PAF, and have qualified to be at a position in which they are at the moment; decide what is good for their role. I don't work in PAF but do work in pvt defense industry and live in the REAL Pakistan. Yes there have been lapses and we are not perfect but still am proud of all our forces. If you wana hang ppl then you should start in US for the 9/11 security lapses and the Pentagon attack from where all this War On Terror started.

analytical explanation , good ...

 

[Chanakyaa]

analytical explanation , good ...

This is Analytical to You ?

Because by now F16 has become sanctioned proof for us and it offers a lot of what the latest 4.5 gen planes are offering in terms of electronics.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...n-f-16-discussions-2-a-455.html#ixzz2c3hcSeJo

Since when F16s became Sanction Proof ?

 

[nangyale]

I Think You Missed Three Key Things Above :

#1. Respect for a PDF Veteran

#2. The Fact that Perhaps Israeli Airforce - The Most Professional Air force that used the SAME Mirages and Did Marvels !

#3. By Your Own Logic, Mirages have demerit that French have Moved to Rafale, so what ?
Even US is using F16s as Targets !

Just a quick question. When was it that Israel Defence Force AF was flying Mirage 2000? Did I miss something?
I sure must have missed it, as it is coming from someone with Israeli flag in the locations area.

 

[Chak Bamu]

@nangyale, forget him. He is just trolling.
@MastanKhan sb. Thanks for giving some detail and rationale to your oft repeated opinions. I however, do not really agree with you here. I am glad PAF went with F-16. When we were under sanctions, we had access to spare parts because of its being widely used by many countries, especially Turkey.

I hope you remember how France buckled under US pressure and cancelled the deal to supply us with nuclear power plant. What could guarantee that France would not have done something similar with M2K and / or parts and service support for it? Moreover, suppose things had gone according to plan as proposed by you and we had a few squadrons of M2K. What might have happened if India had gone for Rafale in '00s and used its leverage upon France to lean on us? After all, France did dump our request for subsystems for JF-17.

You may disagree with me sir, but I see that the shape of PAF today is a function of Pakistan as a country in its unique position at this time. How could it be otherwise?

 

[ejaz007]

I remember from your old posts that you work or workd in the auto industry. And from your logic of buying first best and second best Mirage2K im glad your not in PAF. Mirage2K production is closed now and France has moved on to Rafale. Mean while F16's are still being produced and upgraded to new blocks and we have decades of experience with the machine. As far as new procurements are concerned, PAF has learned to be realistic all through the 90's. There is no tax on dreaming but then you don't get any where also. In my personal opinion; I am glad PAF choose the Chinese path while getting the new F16s in the 2000's. Because by now F16 has become sanctioned proof for us and it offers a lot of what the latest 4.5 gen planes are offering in terms of electronics. Our future is with the Chinese. They might not be at par with the west at the moment, but they are catching up very fast.

Let the ppl who have dedicated their lives for PAF, and have qualified to be at a position in which they are at the moment; decide what is good for their role. I don't work in PAF but do work in pvt defense industry and live in the REAL Pakistan. Yes there have been lapses and we are not perfect but still am proud of all our forces. If you wana hang ppl then you should start in US for the 9/11 security lapses and the Pentagon attack from where all this War On Terror started.

I do not agree with your post.

PAF did make a mess. Entire world except the PAF new of the sanctions. We should have stopped making the payments and gone straight to the court. Cuba did this and got back a lot more money than they paid to the Americans.

PAF showed criminal negligence in this matter and proper inquiry should have been carried out as to why millions kept on going to the US when we knew the planes were not coming.

 

[ejaz007]

@nangyale, forget him. He is just trolling.
@MastanKhan sb. Thanks for giving some detail and rationale to your oft repeated opinions. I however, do not really agree with you here. I am glad PAF went with F-16. When we were under sanctions, we had access to spare parts because of its being widely used by many countries, especially Turkey.

I hope you remember how France buckled under US pressure and cancelled the deal to supply us with nuclear power plant. What could guarantee that France would not have done something similar with M2K and / or parts and service support for it? Moreover, suppose things had gone according to plan as proposed by you and we had a few squadrons of M2K. What might have happened if India had gone for Rafale in '00s and used its leverage upon France to lean on us? After all, France did dump our request for subsystems for JF-17.

You may disagree with me sir, but I see that the shape of PAF today is a function of Pakistan as a country in its unique position at this time. How could it be otherwise?

And I do not agree with you. Choosing F-16 is one issue and discarding Mirage 2000 entirely another issue.

As soon as we knew that F-16 deal was in trouble we should have gone straight to French and paid them 228 million USD instead of paying Americans when the planes were not coming. With down payment made they would have agreed to sell us and perhaps today we would have had both platforms. Remember French were not getting many export orders and selection by PAF would have boosted the Mirage 2000 chances of further export orders.

The French did not agree to sell subsystems for JF-17 because of competition concerns. No one wants a cheap alternative to be competing against their own weapons system with similar capabilities.

 

[Tameem]

I do not agree with your post.

PAF did make a mess. Entire world except the PAF new of the sanctions. We should have stopped making the payments and gone straight to the court. Cuba did this and got back a lot more money than they paid to the Americans.

PAF showed criminal negligence in this matter and proper inquiry should have been carried out as to why millions kept on going to the US when we knew the planes were not coming.

Wrong Analogy here, Cuban communist regime could take capitalist US head-on while keeping USSR/Russia at his back, we couldn’t as we already filled our plate with Indian animosity…..and need supa powa ally one way or other? The same reasons where in last decades our Kashmir policy went backwards and now emerging again sensing 2014 eventual scaledown/withdrawl.

 

[ejaz007]

Wrong Analogy here, Cuban communist regime could take capitalist US head-on while keeping USSR/Russia at his back, we couldn’t as we already filled our plate with Indian animosity…..and need supa powa ally one way or other? The same reasons where in last decades our Kashmir policy went backwards and now emerging again sensing 2014 eventual scaledown/withdrawl.

Russians did send the signals for improving relations. We failed to interpret them correctly and our military establishment failed to make a decision. We some how have developed a bad habit of going back to Americans and getting dumped every now and then.

World changes and with it you have to adopt to new environment. Wrong policies and bad decisions are our virtue.

 

[MastanKhan]

I remember from your old posts that you work or workd in the auto industry. And from your logic of buying first best and second best Mirage2K im glad your not in PAF. Mirage2K production is closed now and France has moved on to Rafale. Mean while F16's are still being produced and upgraded to new blocks and we have decades of experience with the machine. As far as new procurements are concerned, PAF has learned to be realistic all through the 90's. There is no tax on dreaming but then you don't get any where also. In my personal opinion; I am glad PAF choose the Chinese path while getting the new F16s in the 2000's. Because by now F16 has become sanctioned proof for us and it offers a lot of what the latest 4.5 gen planes are offering in terms of electronics. Our future is with the Chinese. They might not be at par with the west at the moment, but they are catching up very fast.

Let the ppl who have dedicated their lives for PAF, and have qualified to be at a position in which they are at the moment; decide what is good for their role. I don't work in PAF but do work in pvt defense industry and live in the REAL Pakistan. Yes there have been lapses and we are not perfect but still am proud of all our forces. If you wana hang ppl then you should start in US for the 9/11 security lapses and the Pentagon attack from where all this War On Terror started.

Hi,

That is the first thing they teach in the u s military---that Pride is a killer and the same thing that they teach in the sales----pride kills a sale.

There is no problem with chosing the F16's after 9/11---the problem is with thew timing----. Pakistan should have had at least a minimum on one sqdrn of F16's after they signed the agreement to support them in war---and another two sqdrn's within a year----.

Pakistan had the u s by the ball joints in the first 5 years of the wot. Buddy---you guys don't even know how to talk to white people. You guys can't even have a general conversation with the whiteys----you have no clue in how to negotiate---.

As for buying M2k----india would not have had the same strike capability through the late 80's---90's----2000 and till now---. Indian M2k is the back bone of iaf.

Pakistan would not have felt impotent in the 90's----as for end of line for mirage----pakistan would have gone for the rafale---but then mirage 2005---07 and 09 upgraqdes would have been sufficient. French radars and air to air missiles.

This incompetent air force did not even have a singe aircraft to face the iaf at kargil. This air force let its most valuable assets be destroyed by the terrorists----while all of the world knew about the oncoming terrorist attacks on the air force bases---the only ones who did not know about it were the pak air force.

As for aircraft not in production now----have you heard about this aircraft known as Saab 2000.

 

[MastanKhan]

@nangyale, forget him. He is just trolling.
@MastanKhan sb. Thanks for giving some detail and rationale to your oft repeated opinions. I however, do not really agree with you here. I am glad PAF went with F-16. When we were under sanctions, we had access to spare parts because of its being widely used by many countries, especially Turkey.

I hope you remember how France buckled under US pressure and cancelled the deal to supply us with nuclear power plant. What could guarantee that France would not have done something similar with M2K and / or parts and service support for it? Moreover, suppose things had gone according to plan as proposed by you and we had a few squadrons of M2K. What might have happened if India had gone for Rafale in '00s and used its leverage upon France to lean on us? After all, France did dump our request for subsystems for JF-17.

You may disagree with me sir, but I see that the shape of PAF today is a function of Pakistan as a country in its unique position at this time. How could it be otherwise?

Hi,

I don't have a problem with paf going with the F 16---but for diversity sake---they should have also bought the first batch of M2K's as well to take india away from that market---thus inflicting a coupe de grace---. Leaving the M2k open to india---was like shooting your mother in the heart----.

That is why I keep saying----paf does not have any brains to think with.They have no strategy and game plan---they can fly----no doubt about that----.

 

[piddu]

nice pakistan air force is the best

 

[Luftwaffe]

As for aircraft not in production now----have you heard about this aircraft known as Saab 2000.

"They" have answer to that what would be their reply just 4 SAAB air frames no big deal. They've Answers to everything.