Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[GriffinsRule]

a few points GE engine based aircraft bloc 10/30/40/50.... andp&w based aircraft are not inter changeable meaning you cannot put GE engine of an aircraft w/o mod as engine mount point are different also specs ans equipment is different so there are some older Italians aor force returned F-16A amrac but no life left or too little perhaps good for spare recovery

secondly US will not allow pac to perform any mod so too expansive to do mods else’s where

the 8 f-15 bloc 52 last time werw meant to add number to bring onesqn to max strength

I will not count on f-16 on future nor is paf

chao


paf f-16 are Gr8 in a2a but a2g no Stand off weapons doubt they would be prefers role max lgb with 20 km range rather jf-17 and mirages will take a2g role with stand off weapons 60-500 km range

h2, h4, range ext kit based bombs plus cruise missile

Currently, F-16s are a great asset for both accurate and diverse A-G roles as well. Most precision strikes against the terrorists in Pakistan were done by the F-16s as well.
The Mirages guided bombs are not a very viable solution and most likely the H2 and H4 bombs will retire alongside with the platform. Anytime you need 2 aircraft to drop a bomb, and that too where it has to be guided by a dual-seat, its asking for trouble. There are very few twin seaters available as is and peace time attrition alone will whittle this capability away slowly.
As for JF-17s, they are just now starting to use the Turkish LDP. Sure, they can use gps guided glide bombs like any other aircraft, but their precision strike capability is still being enhanced slowly. Hopefully we will see more Turkish smart weapons in service including cruise missiles and such in our service.

 

[SQ8]

a few points GE engine based aircraft bloc 10/30/40/50.... andp&w based aircraft are not inter changeable meaning you cannot put GE engine of an aircraft w/o mod as engine mount point are different also specs ans equipment is different so there are some older Italians aor force returned F-16A amrac but no life left or too little perhaps good for spare recovery

secondly US will not allow pac to perform any mod so too expansive to do mods else’s where

the 8 f-15 bloc 52 last time werw meant to add number to bring onesqn to max strength

I will not count on f-16 on future nor is paf

chao


paf f-16 are Gr8 in a2a but a2g no Stand off weapons doubt they would be prefers role max lgb with 20 km range rather jf-17 and mirages will take a2g role with stand off weapons 60-500 km range

h2, h4, range ext kit based bombs plus cruise missile

I really have not understood what you are trying to say

 

[GriffinsRule]

I really have not understood what you are trying to say

I think he is saying not all F-16s in storage can be easily used by PAF. I think the engines are interchangeable however, other things like intakes are different and would have to be changed etc. Basically not as many P&W C/Ds available vs A/B that all used the same engine.

 

[SQ8]

I think he is saying not all F-16s in storage can be easily used by PAF. I think the engines are interchangeable however, other things like intakes are different and would have to be changed etc. Basically not as many P&W C/Ds available vs A/B that all used the same engine.

Ok to him then. I really never looked but only wanted to provide the link to the database.

 

[airomerix]

I think he is saying not all F-16s in storage can be easily used by PAF. I think the engines are interchangeable however, other things like intakes are different and would have to be changed etc. Basically not as many P&W C/Ds available vs A/B that all used the same engine.

I posted the following some time ago in response to PAF being able to operate GE powered F-16s.

It is technically possible but with a HUGE cost of both 'attempting' it and 'sustaining it'. If you're a country that has F100 powered Eagles or Vipers; it is VERY expensive to start buying the same airframe with different engines. Ask the USAF.

PAF will need twice as much tooling in its intermediate engine maintenance facilities to maintain the two separate engine types. An engine shop has millions and millions of dollars worth of special tooling for each type of engine.

Even the various models of F100 share only a portion (70% or so) of their tooling.

If PAF goes for a 50/50 split, it not only gives PAF "competition" but also makes operating 100% of the fleet TWICE as complex and expensive.

This is why there is resistance to GE getting contracts for the JSF engines as PW is the prime engine supplier. Not to mention some engine parts and tooling will be shared for the F/A-22 and JSF, like the F-15 and F-16.

Point to ponder: If you had 100 F100-220 engines, and could buy 20 new -229s that only require 30% new tooling, would you buy 20 new GEs and have to buy 100% new tooling to support less than 1/3 of your fleet? Would you replace all your old engines with GEs and have to spend 10s of millions of dollars to modify your existing aircraft fleet?

 

[GriffinsRule]

I posted the following some time ago in response to PAF being able to operate GE powered F-16s.

Yep its not feasible at all to have a mix engine fleet

 

[Incog_nito]

Block 15's !!!

What do you plan to get out of those? They're almost 4 decades old my good man.

Had you of said Block 30's or 40's would have been something worth considering (seriously) with MLU.

But those Block 15's have seen a lot of action in the Gulf War & Bosnia. I'm pretty certain their airframe is 'The End'.

MLU-4 upgrade will replace the old parts and add new life to Engine, Airframe, and new generation avaionics.

 

[Akh1112]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1358817719529963522

MLU-4 upgrade will replace the old parts and add new life to Engine, Airframe, and new generation avaionics.

airframe life is exclusively a Falcon STAR or SLEP program thing, MLU focuses on avionics

 

[GiG]

very interesting report from RAND about USAF and PAF engagement to look at:https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/AD1085808.pdf

Specific Recommendations

Continue to approve maintenance, training, and support for existing PAF F-16s, and be very wary of calls to forgo (or drastically accelerate) future transfers. F-16s are more than just a high-tech system that provides PAF a perceived balancer for the Indian Air Force. F-16s are the single most important symbol of a historic and long-term security relationship between the United States and Pakistan; for Pakistan, they are a concrete manifestation of U.S. friendship and support. Terminating F-16 transfers could further reduce the already limited influence that the United States enjoys with Pakistan and drive Islamabad into an even closer military partnership with Beijing. While China is Pakistan’s largest overall supplier of military hardware, F-16s remain a vital U.S. leverage point. Pakistan’s continued desire for F-16s, and the United States’ willingness to provide them, may be the lynchpin for long-term agreements related to access, airspace, and logistics. At the same time, the United States should be cautious of providing any new capabilities sufficiently destabilizing as to damage U.S. engagement with India. A brief rundown of several drawbacks and benefits of continued provision of F-16s and related military hardware may be instructive:
Drawbacks include the following:

• Continued provision of F-16 technology provides Pakistan with its aircraft most capable of carrying out missions against India, thereby possibly increasing the potential for conflict between these nations.
• It provides Pakistan with the most capable aircraft for potential delivery of nuclear warheads to targets in India.
• It fosters the perception that the United States is unwilling to cut off its highest-profile security cooperation program even after decades of allegations of Pakistani support for international terrorist organizations, such as al Qaeda, the Taliban, and LeT.

Given India’s superiority in the conventional air power arena, and effective parity (perhaps operational superiority) in the nuclear arena, this last point remains the most potent, and to the authors of this report the most persuasive, argument for severing the F-16 supply.

Benefits include the following:

• Continued provision of F-16 technology provides continued U.S. leverage over Pakistani decisions—not as much leverage as the United States would like, but far more leverage than if F-16 technology were shut off.
• It provides USAF with continued visibility into PAF capabilities and intentions: Without the ongoing exchange of information that accompanies provision and operation of F-16s, USAF would lose a valuable source of insight into what PAF is able to do and what Pakistan’s apex decisionmakers want it to do.
• It prevents Pakistan from becoming a full-fledged security partner of China. When China becomes Pakistan’s supplier not only of the most military equipment but also of the highest level of military technology in its arsenal, the balance of influence in Asia will shift in Beijing’s direction.
• It provides political symbolism outstripping the actual military utility of the aircraft itself. For Pakistan, as for perhaps no other nation, an F-16 is far more than a fighter jet: It is a source of national pride—and a clear marker of U.S. commitment.

In the authors’ view, this last point is probably the most important one. Given the history of the F-16 program, a cut-off in the present would be interpreted as a replay of the “betrayal and abandonment” Pakistani narrative of the 1990s. The F-16 is a very capable aircraft—but it may be even more capable as a tool of policy and statecraft than of actual war-fighting.

 

[Nomad40]

PAF has a decision to make on its Hands.

Make Sherdil's F-16 up par with rest of its fleet.....Tape3/4 upgrades.
OR
Get hands on some AIM-120b.......Preferably.

In my Humble Opinion there will be no more F-16s for the PAF unless there is subtle change in policy.

PAF needs to focus on 3 aspects of its operations and that can be discussed further when the time comes but for now what the PAF needs to do is to Maintain Balance with its counter Parts and not Only the IAF.

The first steps are simple and It will start of Keeping a fair balance of Western and Eastern equipment and west doesn't necessarily imply to The USA made or European made. Like wise Balance doesn't apply to a 1/1 for W&E.

I know China is a good collaborator and has certainly learned unpriceable amount's from our use of Western Equipment but fostering another collaboration with 1 other country which IMO is definitely not Turkey.

 

[Windjammer]

RTB After Dusk Patrol.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

It will be a folly , and a mistake to keep dreaming about F16 , world has moved on with new Technologies and options , we need to starting looking at other solutions beyond F16

A Kit Kat bar , 100 grams is same as a the 5 mini Kit Kat Bar (20 gram) just the wrapping looks different

Time to aim for more Advance options in market

 

[ghazi52]

 

[FuturePAF]

I know China is a good collaborator and has certainly learned unpriceable amount's from our use of Western Equipment but fostering another collaboration with 1 other country which IMO is definitely not Turkey.

Italy has been the most reliable European Supplier for Pakistan in recent years. As a partner in the Tempest project, they seem to be the best European partner Pakistan can do business with, vis a vi future advanced aerospace developments.

Italy joins Britain’s Tempest combat aircraft program

Rome's involvement solidifies what is becoming a major race in Europe to develop a next-generation warplane for the continent.

www.defensenews.com

 

[Xone]

Pakistan Has to some daring moves to influence US, otherwise obvious decision is, no more big tickets for Pakistan, especially giving any edge over India.