Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[MastanKhan]

whats the reason ?

Hi,

Pakistan and Paf failed to take advantage of the situation in a timely manner---.

Like not forcing the US to release the F16 right after agreeing to join the US against taliban.

Like not purchasing an alternate in a timely manner.

What then happened as time passed by---pakistan's utility became less importatnt and then came a time that pakistan was slapped to do things for free which the americans paid for free in the past.

 

[Yasser76]

Hi,

Pakistan and Paf failed to take advantage of the situation in a timely manner---.

Like not forcing the US to release the F16 right after agreeing to join the US against taliban.

Like not purchasing an alternate in a timely manner.

What then happened as time passed by---pakistan's utility became less importatnt and then came a time that pakistan was slapped to do things for free which the americans paid for free in the past.

This is a very odd view of modern geopolitics. It was Pakistan itself and IK in particular that said we do not want handouts anymore and the transactional element of the US-Pak relationship should end. There has been no oushback to US Aid to be restarted and the military do not even want it restarted.

Right now the only thing of any interest to the Military maybe spares, upgrades and maybe even small purchases of legacy weapons (F-16, P-3C, US Made missiles). The move away from US was forseen some tine ago. This is no secret of "failure", this is a policy.

15-20 years from now China may well be the worlds largest economy and greatest military power in many spheres. Pakistan is China's closest ally bar none. US-China rivalry will deepen. US has made clear India is it's main ally in the region. Pakistan will never have access to the latest US equipment for this reason. No amount of deals or actions by anyone in Pakistan can change this. Could we get F-16V upgrades? Unlikely now in my eyes, even if we paid fully.

What we will have is access to some of the most cutting edge military tech from China, in the next 10-20 years the quality and sophistication of Chinese equipment will increases even more rapidly than it has over the last 20 years.....

 

[Trailer23]

...even we couldn't get 8 F-16 approved for us.

I'm sorry, but which Rocket Scientist gave you the idea that those 08 F-16's were not approved for Sale?

Both US Congress & the DoD did approve the Sale, but there was a clause - a big one. One that we had to finance them completely. Bottom line, we didn't.

US Approves Sale of 8 F-16 Block 52 Fighters to Pakistan

There is also the matter of US attempting to push the Sale of F-16's when ACM (retd.) Sohail Aman was in office and he rejected (bluntly).

Timestamped - Click play:

As for the 'Yemen' conversation that just keeps popping up like daisies (from time to time) - well those individuals are free to send their kids and grandkids to fight meaningless War that doesn't concern our Nation - Pakistan.

Maybe Americans or some that carry the US Passport have something against that Country. We don't.

 

[Tipu7]

F16 case is always open for Pakistan minus the times when PAK-US relations are bitter. And PAF will eagerly add more F16s whenever it will be feasible.

 

[Yasser76]

F16 case is always open for Pakistan minus the times when PAK-US relations are bitter. And PAF will eagerly add more F16s whenever it will be feasible.

That was the case maybe 5 years back but time is moving against this now.

F-16 replacement (AZM) is being planned and developed, PAF actively planning on the day the F-16s get retired. Remember there is no V upgrade so 10 years from now Block 52s will no longer be cutting edge machines. With radar and missile ranges increasing stealth will become vital, furthermore I would imagine PAF would want an all AESA equipped fleet, ultra long range missiles (both air to air and air to ground) and some element of IA integrated into the plane. F-16s simply do not do that anymore. PAF is planning for ariel dominance with an enemy equipped with Rafales and upgraded Mirage 2000s. F-16s do not let us do that, AZM does. Don't get me wrong, PAF had long love affair with F-16, it served us very very well and up until 2 months ago was the mist cutting edge fighter in South Asia. PAF has know about Rafale induction for around 10 years now and plan to counter it.

 

[Windjammer]

Hi,

Pakistan and Paf failed to take advantage of the situation in a timely manner---.

Like not forcing the US to release the F16 right after agreeing to join the US against taliban.

Like not purchasing an alternate in a timely manner.

What then happened as time passed by---pakistan's utility became less importatnt and then came a time that pakistan was slapped to do things for free which the americans paid for free in the past.

So have we moved on from JH-7 then or obtaining JH-7 would have rendered the need of F-16s.

 

[MastanKhan]

So have we moved on from JH-7 then or obtaining JH-7 would have rendered the need of F-16s.

Hi,

Please keep you interest in posting pictures---.

 

[MastanKhan]

This is a very odd view of modern geopolitics. It was Pakistan itself and IK in particular that said we do not want handouts anymore and the transactional element of the US-Pak relationship should end. There has been no oushback to US Aid to be restarted and the military do not even want it restarted.

Right now the only thing of any interest to the Military maybe spares, upgrades and maybe even small purchases of legacy weapons (F-16, P-3C, US Made missiles). The move away from US was forseen some tine ago. This is no secret of "failure", this is a policy.

15-20 years from now China may well be the worlds largest economy and greatest military power in many spheres. Pakistan is China's closest ally bar none. US-China rivalry will deepen. US has made clear India is it's main ally in the region. Pakistan will never have access to the latest US equipment for this reason. No amount of deals or actions by anyone in Pakistan can change this. Could we get F-16V upgrades? Unlikely now in my eyes, even if we paid fully.

What we will have is access to some of the most cutting edge military tech from China, in the next 10-20 years the quality and sophistication of Chinese equipment will increases even more rapidly than it has over the last 20 years.....

Hi,

Food and clothings are a hand out---.

Weapons are not a handout---. When someone gives you a killing machine for your national security---it is not a handout---.

I am so sad that nobody teaches you kids things about wars weapons tactics and strategy---.

The sophistication of the american weapon is already at a multitude of the chinese weapon right now---. In 20 years---it would be way apart---.

 

[Yasser76]

Hi,

Food and clothings are a hand out---.

Weapons are not a handout---. When someone gives you a killing machine for your national security---it is not a handout---.

I am so sad that nobody teaches you kids things about wars weapons tactics and strategy---.

The sophistication of the american weapon is already at a multitude of the chinese weapon right now---. In 20 years---it would be way apart---.

It is fairly obvious you have little idea about the level of technological acheivment China has achieved in the military sphere. Let me enlighten you by using the words of The Pentagon

China's Military Has Surpassed US in Ships, Missiles and Air Defense, DoD Report Finds

China's military is already superior to the U.S. in several respects and is aiming for total dominance.

www.military.com

 

[Armchair]

In my experience, as a defense contractor, there can be no generalization against or for chinese weapons. Completely depends on what weapons - manufacturer, etc.

US weapons however are (very generally speaking), the best in the world. Not from a cost perspective, but effectiveness perspective. 27-2 showed that. An example - if PAF was offered for free - a squadron of F-22s or a squadron of J-20s, without taking politics into account, what do you think PAF would choose?

At this point the US already has developed prototypes for 6th gen. And a multitude of other weapons. Pak has been burnt with Chinese weapons a few times so far - Z-9s, F-22Ps, are to name a few big ticket items. Who knows what the future holds? You love the VT-4s so far, let's see how long they remain loved - Bangladeshi experience with NORINCO tank - looked flashy but now leaks water when it rains!

As someone who has worked with the BN at the highest level - the Chinese ships we have are incredibly breakdown prone. A saying in the BN - that these ships run on the blood of the engineers assigned for maintaining them.

Buying sh!tty gear that takes up endless resources, both human and material, to keep running but don't perform when push comes to shove - that is the danger and reality that many budget conscious countries are facing.

Then there are so many issues that can only be understood at the micro level - like Chinese Type-56 rifles are excellent - if they are from the old stock. If you buy them from NORINCO and they are a new production - they are horrible to use. So you really have to be extremely diligent when buying Chinese. In BD MoD - they often specify clearly that for a certain item, they have to be from within a list of countries - and that list often skips China. Not because BD doesn't want closer ties with China - but because of past experience with the quality of their equipment.

The reason that JH-7s make sense is also a micro issue - they are relatively good quality equipment - with British engines and a simple structure that is dumb proof. They can play a role that is 100% relevant today - AShMs, BVR magazines and ability to threaten the entire Indian coast with ASMs. The fact that PAF does not understand this, is understandable. However, PN surely is suffering from that lack of appreciation.

 

[Cool_Soldier]

I'm sorry, but which Rocket Scientist gave you the idea that those 08 F-16's were not approved for Sale?

Both US Congress & the DoD did approve the Sale, but there was a clause - a big one. One that we had to finance them completely. Bottom line, we didn't.

US Approves Sale of 8 F-16 Block 52 Fighters to Pakistan

There is also the matter of US attempting to push the Sale of F-16's when ACM (retd.) Sohail Aman was in office and he rejected (bluntly).

Timestamped - Click play:

As for the 'Yemen' conversation that just keeps popping up like daisies (from time to time) - well those individuals are free to send their kids and grandkids to fight meaningless War that doesn't concern our Nation - Pakistan.

Maybe Americans or some that carry the US Passport have something against that Country. We don't.

You are right sir ,these were approved and supposed to be paid by US govt from FMF program, I think,

But, then US changed their mind and offered us to pay from our own national funds and Pakistan decided not pay heavy cost.

Mean to say whatever the reason was, it could not materialize.

Same case is going on with Helicopters A1Z1

 

[Trailer23]

Mean to say whatever the reason was, it could not materialize.

Same case is going on with Helicopters A1Z1

For something not to materialize, there is always a reason. So let end the debate on those 08 F-16's. Its water under the bridge.

Can't speak on the Zulus, 'cause I don't know anything 'bout the Army (at all).

 

[Windjammer]

Hi,

Please keep you interest in posting pictures---.

And you should stick with your dodgy cars.

 

[Yasser76]

In my experience, as a defense contractor, there can be no generalization against or for chinese weapons. Completely depends on what weapons - manufacturer, etc.

US weapons however are (very generally speaking), the best in the world. Not from a cost perspective, but effectiveness perspective. 27-2 showed that. An example - if PAF was offered for free - a squadron of F-22s or a squadron of J-20s, without taking politics into account, what do you think PAF would choose?

At this point the US already has developed prototypes for 6th gen. And a multitude of other weapons. Pak has been burnt with Chinese weapons a few times so far - Z-9s, F-22Ps, are to name a few big ticket items. Who knows what the future holds? You love the VT-4s so far, let's see how long they remain loved - Bangladeshi experience with NORINCO tank - looked flashy but now leaks water when it rains!

As someone who has worked with the BN at the highest level - the Chinese ships we have are incredibly breakdown prone. A saying in the BN - that these ships run on the blood of the engineers assigned for maintaining them.

Buying sh!tty gear that takes up endless resources, both human and material, to keep running but don't perform when push comes to shove - that is the danger and reality that many budget conscious countries are facing.

Then there are so many issues that can only be understood at the micro level - like Chinese Type-56 rifles are excellent - if they are from the old stock. If you buy them from NORINCO and they are a new production - they are horrible to use. So you really have to be extremely diligent when buying Chinese. In BD MoD - they often specify clearly that for a certain item, they have to be from within a list of countries - and that list often skips China. Not because BD doesn't want closer ties with China - but because of past experience with the quality of their equipment.

The reason that JH-7s make sense is also a micro issue - they are relatively good quality equipment - with British engines and a simple structure that is dumb proof. They can play a role that is 100% relevant today - AShMs, BVR magazines and ability to threaten the entire Indian coast with ASMs. The fact that PAF does not understand this, is understandable. However, PN surely is suffering from that lack of appreciation.

There is an element of truth in what you say, my point was China has been catching up and still needs mre work to do to make truly world class equipment but it is getting there. Pakistani forces take new equipment seriously, when we had little choice we had to put up with some shoddy Chinese equipment but post 2000 their kit is coming on leaps and bounds in quality. Often Pakistan does reject Chinese equipment that then pushes the Chinese to improve it (like J-10 and Z-10) and often Pakistan modifies Chinese equipment for it's own needs (F-7PG, F-22P, Ukranian engine in Khalid etc)

In the area of quality, certainly in terms of avionics and ship building, even the US concede the gap has narrowed massively, and will continue to do so.

Of course PAF would go for F-22s over J-20s right now, but as I said, in 20 years that may not be the case. the 21st Century will belong to China, not America. Pakistan is very fortunate to have it as an ally and a neighbour, and I think by year 2040 you will see China surpass Europe and equal, if not surpass US in the very latest military technology and space technology.

 

[Readerdefence]

Hi by the time Pakistan start manufacturing AZM or 5th generation probably Indians will get their hands on stealth detection radars as in recent immediate past American P8 start landing on Indian naval bases for refuelling and sharing their spying data on Chinese navy
so I’m sure Indian might not be getting stealth detection radars very soon from USA not in case for Pakistan but to counter Chinese stealth which later can be used against Pakistan
beside the AZM better option for Pakistan is not ask Chinese help in this particular technology and get a long range potent missile defence system ASAP
thank you