Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[mingle]

First time on this forum, I actually dont understand you.

Opps

@Knuckles @Windjammer

Is it true that a contract has been signed for a mix of new and used C130J, 9 of them?

And on the F16's we are getting:
36 new Blk72
20 EDA
10 existing PAF to be upgraded?

Above article at defence news used word, wave,, says alot and means alot Morocco, Taiwan, few EU countries put Indonesia, Pakistan in South and southeast Asia. Article claim Chile may be but not too many IA Pakistan will get them.

What does EDA mean?

Excessive defence article

the standardization will help to drop the cost making it feasible to sell without subsidy..for example, the cost has now dropped by 40%..from 100m to around 60m a piece....
or basically it means that companies now know USA won't pay them so they are trying to drop the cost to sell them..

if f16 is dropped to 50m price range it is going to sell like hot cake in Africa, southeast Asia(like Malaysia, Indonesia, philippine ..because then nothing else can compete..
with coming of aim 260..aim 120c would probably also be available with the package


why would you want to update 10 when you have 18, overall numbers dont make sense..i am sure some disucssion is going on and something might materialize but none of us know what that is ..the Obama deal of 8 aircrafts was out of the blue too..none here could have predicted that would happen.even though negotiations went on for months between PAF, US govt and LM

PAF will get slice from this Hott cake IA and I hope it would be sizeable slice.

 

[ARMalik]

It says deal for US Government.

https://www.upi.com/Defense-News/20...C-130J-Super-Hercules-aircraft/3371578934069/
Lockheed announces $3B deal for 50 C-130J Super Hercules aircraft

 

[mingle]

It says deal for US Government.

https://www.upi.com/Defense-News/20...C-130J-Super-Hercules-aircraft/3371578934069/
Lockheed announces $3B deal for 50 C-130J Super Hercules aircraft

Beacuse US Govt is paying to LM. LM its for US airforce but its for allies too like F16 62 billion awarded by US government

 

[Armchair]

Thanks. What does that mean in relation to F16? I saw speculation on another forum of F16s and it said 20 EDA's with them. What does that mean?

it means purane kapre

 

[Blacklight]

This is the stuff that's actually happening with our armed forces. It's serious and promising stuff, but it's mundane and in the open. The ironic part is that no one with 'sources' actually saw any of the above happening until it hit the news.

Once something big gets going, it's known to everyone. If it's not known, then chances are, it isn't happening. Believe me, if there was actually a deal for 36 new-build Block-72 on the table, the whole world will know and talk about it.

Well he just didn't say 36new, he even mentioned 20 EDA, and 10 existing PAF ones to be upgraded. So all in 66. Very specific details.

Given the multi year buys Lockheed has in place, quite possible.

Time is a great Equalizer, lets see who is proven right.

 

[Shabi1]

My issue is that I've been hearing 'forum news' like this for 18 years, and in all that time, only 1% of it ever came true, and that was always in relation to numbers and type more so than the news as a whole.

So, for example, in 2003-2004 agreed to sell F-16s to Pakistan, and in the 1-2 years since we heard forum rumours about the numbers, type, weapons package, etc.

That info was all true in the end, but the overall story (F-16 sales) was also true. The PAF said it was going to sign a deal, we just didn't know the specifics.

Likewise, in 2015-2017 we heard straight from the Turkish MoD about Pakistan being interested in the T129 ATAK and MILGEM. In 2018, both deals were inked.

Or the fact that the PN is working on a next-gen LRMPA to replace the P-3C, we know about it because (1) the CNS announced it and (2) the PN released a tender for the aircraft.

Or the fact that the PAF ordered 3 additional Erieye AEW&C? This was announced by the previous CAS via Alan Warnes. We looked through the MoDP reports, and Saab completed the deliveries of those systems in 2017-2018.

Or the PAF's lead-in fighter trainer (LIFT) programs. This one's hilarious because we had even retired officers say "no such program" and what have you, and lo and behold, the current CAS tells Alan Warnes it's a real program.

So, where were the rumour guys then?

This is the stuff that's actually happening with our armed forces. It's serious and promising stuff, but it's mundane and in the open. The ironic part is that no one with 'sources' actually saw any of the above happening until it hit the news.

Once something big gets going, it's known to everyone. If it's not known, then chances are, it isn't happening. Believe me, if there was actually a deal for 36 new-build Block-72 on the table, the whole world will know and talk about it.

Agreed and also the fact that big ticket purchases don't make sense while we are trying to squeeze concessions on debt repayments and battling COVID-19. Purchases can wait while we get through this period.

Do foresee our military going through with capability enhancements via upgrades on systems and enhancement on local support infrastructure but won't be advertised until absolutely can't be hidden from public.

 

[mshan44]

 

[mingle]

Well he just didn't say 36new, he even mentioned 20 EDA, and 10 existing PAF ones to be upgraded. So all in 66. Very specific details.

Given the multi year buys Lockheed has in place, quite possible.

Time is a great Equalizer, lets see who is proven right.

If money is available PAF should go more blk 70 beacuse they are cheap now due to standard versions. No need EDA better go more new blk 70 and rest PAF fleet to V finger crossed.

Agreed and also the fact that big ticket purchases don't make sense while we are trying to squeeze concessions on debt repayments and battling COVID-19. Purchases can wait while we get through this period.

Do foresee our military going through with capability enhancements via upgrades on systems and enhancement on local support infrastructure but won't be advertised until absolutely can't be hidden from public.

It's wouldn't be tax payers money it would be CSF nothing to do with COVID efforts. If Trump release them as he mentioned IK about two trillions $$ package means we will get our money but it will go back US coffers in arms purchase beacuse that what pak wants and Americans wants.

 

[StormBreaker]

If money is available PAF should go more blk 70 beacuse they are cheap now due to standard versions. No need EDA better go more new blk 70 and rest PAF fleet to V finger crossed.


It's wouldn't be tax payers money it would be CSF nothing to do with COVID efforts. If Trump release them as he mentioned IK about two trillions $$ package means we will get our money but it will go back US coffers in arms purchase beacuse that what pak wants and Americans wants.

However,

One thing that makes me curious, most probably because of my lack of understanding on the legalities involved in the CSF regards, Is USA really bound to pay CSF to PAK and that not doing so would actually have some problems for USA in the international arena ? They have halted CSF for a long time, Who is forcing them to pay CSF if that is the case ?

@Dazzler @Blacklight @dbc @Socra

I can think of only you people who might answer my question or maybe not because not everyone can !!

In short, I know the answer is not as simple as Afghan peace deal But my curiosity is whether is it like this “Eventually you should pay liable CSF funds to Pakistan, Otherwise”, What is after “Otherwise” ?

 

[MastanKhan]

My issue is that I've been hearing 'forum news' like this for 18 years, and in all that time, only 1% of it ever came true, and that was always in relation to numbers and type more so than the news as a whole.

So, for example, in 2003-2004 agreed to sell F-16s to Pakistan, and in the 1-2 years since we heard forum rumours about the numbers, type, weapons package, etc.

That info was all true in the end, but the overall story (F-16 sales) was also true. The PAF said it was going to sign a deal, we just didn't know the specifics.

Likewise, in 2015-2017 we heard straight from the Turkish MoD about Pakistan being interested in the T129 ATAK and MILGEM. In 2018, both deals were inked.

Or the fact that the PN is working on a next-gen LRMPA to replace the P-3C, we know about it because (1) the CNS announced it and (2) the PN released a tender for the aircraft.

Or the fact that the PAF ordered 3 additional Erieye AEW&C? This was announced by the previous CAS via Alan Warnes. We looked through the MoDP reports, and Saab completed the deliveries of those systems in 2017-2018.

Or the PAF's lead-in fighter trainer (LIFT) programs. This one's hilarious because we had even retired officers say "no such program" and what have you, and lo and behold, the current CAS tells Alan Warnes it's a real program.

So, where were the rumour guys then?

This is the stuff that's actually happening with our armed forces. It's serious and promising stuff, but it's mundane and in the open. The ironic part is that no one with 'sources' actually saw any of the above happening until it hit the news.

Once something big gets going, it's known to everyone. If it's not known, then chances are, it isn't happening. Believe me, if there was actually a deal for 36 new-build Block-72 on the table, the whole world will know and talk about it.

Hi,

So---many of those have fallen thru the cracks---change of command---change of govt---information leaked too soon---so the procurement process got sabotaged by the enemy.

Procurement went ahead as planned---procurement got sabotaged by the enemy right at the end---.

Planning was bad by the pak army or the Pak air force---did not get the equipment in a timely manner on a fast track basis---seller refused to sell---seller refused to deliver---.

If you dig in deeper---on most of these failed procurements---Pak military failed tp initiate the process properly from the start to the finish---.

The process was lackadaisical---enemy sabotage was not considered---decisions were made were more of an emotional nature rather than tactical---.

So---in the end---just like you point a finger at someone and there are three fingers pointing back at you---they are pointing back at Pak army and Pak air force---.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Hi,

So---many of those have fallen thru the cracks---change of command---change of govt---information leaked too soon---so the procurement process got sabotaged by the enemy.

Procurement went ahead as planned---procurement got sabotaged by the enemy right at the end---.

Planning was bad by the pak army or the Pak air force---did not get the equipment in a timely manner on a fast track basis---seller refused to sell---seller refused to deliver---.

If you dig in deeper---on most of these failed procurements---Pak military failed tp initiate the process properly from the start to the finish---.

The process was lackadaisical---enemy sabotage was not considered---decisions were made were more of an emotional nature rather than tactical---.

So---in the end---just like you point a finger at someone and there are three fingers pointing back at you---they are pointing back at Pak army and Pak air force---.

There were situations like that, but again, the official channels confirmed the reality of those programs. So, for example, the assault rifle tender was revealed to the world by the OEMs, and it fell through due to issues. Fair.

The concern I have is how 'sources' are concocting the existence, progress and failure of an entire acquisition program without one verifiable source to back it up.

 

[Blacklight]

There were situations like that, but again, the official channels confirmed the reality of those programs. So, for example, the assault rifle tender was revealed to the world by the OEMs, and it fell through due to issues. Fair.

The concern I have is how 'sources' are concocting the existence, progress and failure of an entire acquisition program without one verifiable source to back it up.

Something to think about

 

[MastanKhan]

There were situations like that, but again, the official channels confirmed the reality of those programs. So, for example, the assault rifle tender was revealed to the world by the OEMs, and it fell through due to issues. Fair.

The concern I have is how 'sources' are concocting the existence, progress and failure of an entire acquisition program without one verifiable source to back it up.

Hi,

Before the invent of the internet---the hearsay was the only way---and it still has not changed---.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Hi,

Before the invent of the internet---the hearsay was the only way---and it still has not changed---.

Before the internet we still had concepts about corroboration, multiple sources, and authenticity/credibility of said sources.

 

[Blacklight]

Hi,

Before the invent of the internet---the hearsay was the only way---and it still has not changed---.

Before the internet we still had concepts about corroboration, multiple sources, and authenticity/credibility of said sources.

Valid points gentlemen.

So on one hand we have this guy, who was right about the Indian ASAT test, Indian Moon lander fiasco, PA's SRBM MaRV test, Pantsir deployments, and on the other hand tin cans, lots of noise and no substance.

Oh well, to each his own.....