Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[MastanKhan]

Enjoy the info

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

It is completely waste if time responding to you. I am responding just to clear few things.

• AH1z Will come if and when USA decide to release them. This is not in our control.
• USA is obligated to support our F-16s. F-16s require regular maintenance/parts. They will continue to support F-16s unless they impose sections on us.
  
• As far as Block 50/52, Lockheed Martin already had block 60 in production at that time. Now they have block 70/72 and they are already working on next upgrade.
• Even when Funds are released, Pakistan can request but it’s up to USA (Trump/Congress/Pentagon) to approve it. I can assure you that there will be NO F-35 coming to Pakistan in next 10 to 15 years. Even chance of block 72 is pretty slim.
• Pakistan might be able to acquire Older/surplus F-16s but that depends on the Afghanistan peace process, Time between June to September is very important. Trump will be doing his re-election campaign. If some kind of agreement is signed by all parties then we will get 18 to 24 Older F-16s. If the peace process is delayed then we will have to wait until 2021.

IMO ... Pakistan will not pay for American equipment from its own resources. We have too little money to put it at risk in a country with a proven history of literally breaking its contracts with us. So, any US equipment we do toy with, it'll either be of very low monetary value (e.g., M4s), or through FMF/CSF.

That being said, I would rather we put any FMF/CSF money we do get towards new C-130s. In this case, there's a higher shot of not only getting those planes, but -- under the banner of HADR, SAR, etc -- getting more subsidies for them. It's easier to sell "helping Pakistan with enhancing its humanitarian assistance capabilities" than AH-1Zs and F-16s. Finally, the PAF actually needs the C-130s, and there aren't any as-good alternatives at that price.

$2 billion US in CSF/FMF can go a long way for the PAF by keeping the current 16 C-130B/Es flying longer, and add another 8-10 new-build C-130Js. In fact, with a little PR greasing, the PAF could possibly get a total of 16 C-130Js through US financial support, which could come willingly for HADR/SAR/PSO, etc.

 

[jupiter2007]

IMO ... Pakistan will not pay for American equipment from its own resources. We have too little money to put it at risk in a country with a proven history of literally breaking its contracts with us. So, any US equipment we do toy with, it'll either be of very low monetary value (e.g., M4s), or through FMF/CSF.

That being said, I would rather we put any FMF/CSF money we do get towards new C-130s. In this case, there's a higher shot of not only getting those planes, but -- under the banner of HADR, SAR, etc -- getting more subsidies for them. It's easier to sell "helping Pakistan with enhancing its humanitarian assistance capabilities" than AH-1Zs and F-16s. Finally, the PAF actually needs the C-130s, and there aren't any as-good alternatives at that price.

$2 billion US in CSF/FMF can go a long way for the PAF by keeping the current 16 C-130B/Es flying longer, and add another 8-10 new-build C-130Js. In fact, with a little PR greasing, the PAF could possibly get a total of 16 C-130Js through US financial support, which could come willingly for HADR/SAR/PSO, etc.

I can understand your point but some stupid people are saying that we can request F-35 and USA will have to give it us because they own 2 billion dollars for Coalition Support Funds.

For future sales to Pakistan, USA will allow FMF and CSF can be used for it.

 

[PakFactor]

IMO ... Pakistan will not pay for American equipment from its own resources. We have too little money to put it at risk in a country with a proven history of literally breaking its contracts with us. So, any US equipment we do toy with, it'll either be of very low monetary value (e.g., M4s), or through FMF/CSF.

That being said, I would rather we put any FMF/CSF money we do get towards new C-130s. In this case, there's a higher shot of not only getting those planes, but -- under the banner of HADR, SAR, etc -- getting more subsidies for them. It's easier to sell "helping Pakistan with enhancing its humanitarian assistance capabilities" than AH-1Zs and F-16s. Finally, the PAF actually needs the C-130s, and there aren't any as-good alternatives at that price.

$2 billion US in CSF/FMF can go a long way for the PAF by keeping the current 16 C-130B/Es flying longer, and add another 8-10 new-build C-130Js. In fact, with a little PR greasing, the PAF could possibly get a total of 16 C-130Js through US financial support, which could come willingly for HADR/SAR/PSO, etc.

Isn’t their any Chinese alternatives to C-130s? I mean even those wouldn’t be sanctions prone.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Isn’t their any Chinese alternatives to C-130s? I mean even those wouldn’t be sanctions prone.

There are nominal alternatives, yes, but the PAF has already flown the Y-8 (KE/ZDK03) and clearly didn't pursue it any further as of yet. It's not just China though. There are 'options' all over the place, from the Embraer C-390 to Ukraine's stuff, but time and time again I hear, "only a Herc can replace a Herc." It's like HMD/S -- there's this one company that did such an excellent job with a design, that design is the preferred option.

I'm against US arms, but there are 2 exceptions I'd make: the Herc and the Chinook.

You just won't get the bang for the buck, flexibility, and worldwide support in any other platform. If not for the US' reluctance, the F-16 and S-70 would be in the list too.

 

[MastanKhan]

IMO ... Pakistan will not pay for American equipment from its own resources. We have too little money to put it at risk in a country with a proven history of literally breaking its contracts with us. So, any US equipment we do toy with, it'll either be of very low monetary value (e.g., M4s), or through FMF/CSF.

That being said, I would rather we put any FMF/CSF money we do get towards new C-130s. In this case, there's a higher shot of not only getting those planes, but -- under the banner of HADR, SAR, etc -- getting more subsidies for them. It's easier to sell "helping Pakistan with enhancing its humanitarian assistance capabilities" than AH-1Zs and F-16s. Finally, the PAF actually needs the C-130s, and there aren't any as-good alternatives at that price.

$2 billion US in CSF/FMF can go a long way for the PAF by keeping the current 16 C-130B/Es flying longer, and add another 8-10 new-build C-130Js. In fact, with a little PR greasing, the PAF could possibly get a total of 16 C-130Js through US financial support, which could come willingly for HADR/SAR/PSO, etc.

Hi,

That is what surprised me at that time---. The temperature in the US was not in favor of the US---and I was wondering why the Paf is asking for something it is not going to get---and then the pakistani public is going to get mad at the US and Paf will get an egg on its face---.

Basically---if you cannot make the sale to the US public---then why put the US govt on the back foot---why create problems for them---.

That F16 fiasco was purely made by the Paf due to its arrogance and ignorance of not understanding the ground realities---.

If the US public was going against pakistan---then the Paf should have countered the american public's narrative hard and strong---.

The Paf left the arena making pakistan look guilty---.

 

[jupiter2007]

Hi,

That is what surprised me at that time---. The temperature in the US was not in favor of the US---and I was wondering why the Paf is asking for something it is not going to get---and then the pakistani public is going to get mad at the US and Paf will get an egg on its face---.

Basically---if you cannot make the sale to the US public---then why put the US govt on the back foot---why create problems for them---.

That F16 fiasco was purely made by the Paf due to its arrogance and ignorance of not understanding the ground realities---.

If the US public was going against pakistan---then the Paf should have countered the american public's narrative hard and strong---.

The Paf left the arena making pakistan look guilty---.

Did you say "US public"? Why would they care about Pakistan? Most of Americans don't even know what continent Pakistan is in. There are only 3 decision makers, President, Congress and Pentagon. Public doesn't have anything to do with foreign military sales.

 

[Haris Ali2140]

Did you say "US public"? Why would they care about Pakistan? Most of Americans don't even know what continent Pakistan is in. There are only 3 decision makers, President, Congress and Pentagon. Public doesn't have anything to do with foreign military sales.

I think he is talking about influencing the senators.

 

[MastanKhan]

Did you say "US public"? Why would they care about Pakistan? Most of Americans don't even know what continent Pakistan is in. There are only 3 decision makers, President, Congress and Pentagon. Public doesn't have anything to do with foreign military sales.

Hi,

Now may I call you less informed about the US and how it works---? The sanctions on pakistan are coming from the US public.

100 letters and 20 phone calls from well off important public figures to their congressmen / senators starts the ball rolling against pakistan---.

How do you think we got the sanctions against india for H1 visa---stopping visas for indians---I myself wrote to my state senators and got an answer that they were looking into it---.

A million times I have explained this phenomenon on this forum in how to work the US govt---and yet thick heads can't get it thru their heads.

 

[mingle]

Hi,

That is what surprised me at that time---. The temperature in the US was not in favor of the US---and I was wondering why the Paf is asking for something it is not going to get---and then the pakistani public is going to get mad at the US and Paf will get an egg on its face---.

Basically---if you cannot make the sale to the US public---then why put the US govt on the back foot---why create problems for them---.

That F16 fiasco was purely made by the Paf due to its arrogance and ignorance of not understanding the ground realities---.

If the US public was going against pakistan---then the Paf should have countered the american public's narrative hard and strong---.

The Paf left the arena making pakistan look guilty---.

Diplomacy and PR two words

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

In the US---the congressman is the weakest link---because he is elected every two years---and it is not like pakistan---where he can run for re-election from another location---.

They are like a tall tree in the wind---bending over with the wind---.

Now this strike in iraq---the president did not do it---he was influenced by the anti iran lobby which pushed him in that direction---. The US president works with the lobby group---unless it gets to be a critical decision & the lobby groups are smart---very smart---they will accept a NO at the time to get a bigger Yes the next time.

 

[jupiter2007]

Hi,

In the US---the congressman is the weakest link---because he is elected every two years---and it is not like pakistan---where he can run for re-election from another location---.

They are like a tall tree in the wind---bending over with the wind---.

Now this strike in iraq---the president did not do it---he was influenced by the anti iran lobby which pushed him in that direction---. The US president works with the lobby group---unless it gets to be a critical decision & the lobby groups are smart---very smart---they will accept a NO at the time to get a bigger Yes the next time.

“the congressman is the weakest link---because he is elected every two years”

Lol

 

[MastanKhan]

“the congressman is the weakest link---because he is elected every two years”

Lol

See---that is how democracy keeps them straight---. Elections every two years and and can only run for elections from one seat---that is declared as there formal primary place of residence on their tax returns---.

 

[jupiter2007]

See---that is how democracy keeps them straight---. Elections every two years and and can only run for elections from one seat---that is declared as there formal primary place of residence on their tax returns---.

I am in DC, I know how USA government works. It’s a 4 years term and mid year election. For example election is done on half the seats of House of Representatives and another half in 2 years.

Pakistan can also do that if they bring presidential system with 6 years terms. Election on half of the MNA seats every 3 years and only allow person to run from his home Constituency which mean candidates must declare their home constituency when submitting their paper work to be considered as a candidate by election commission.
Why 6 years term and why election every 3 years? Every 2 years will be costly because conducting election is not cheap.

 

[jupiter2007]

F-16V