Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[air marshal]

 

[Imran Khan]

f104 flying ?

 

[denel]

Please everyone thinking the 18 +18 contract exists...update yourselves. The timeframe to exercise the option expired. It had a time line to it and that time is gone. The option no longer exists. This deal would be a new one all together.

That being said, the cheapest option for more F-16 is scooping up A/B that are being sold (example the ex-Jordanian airframes). Then would be retired US stock then surplus. The most expensive is newbuild E/F models. If PAF is really getting the blk 72 and the SABR upgrade, they should ztart by acquiring Jordan F-16s. This was previously blocked by US. Until that happens and th AH-1Z are released and/or the engines for mangusta areallowed to ve sold, I don't see this deal happening.

corect; there is just an endless thread on blk70 going based on gossip; reality is it wont happen. just get the used ones as many as possible plus have a complete upgrade path to ensure everything is on common systems.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

corect; there is just an endless thread on blk70 going based on gossip; reality is it wont happen. just get the used ones as many as possible plus have a complete upgrade path to ensure everything is on common systems.

IMO ... it'd be easier to close the chapter on imported fighters.

The PAF would be better served investing in turnkey manufacturing the air-to-air and air-to-surface munitions, configuring the JF-17 to optimal form (and adding more planes), and focusing on Project Azm.

 

[denel]

IMO ... it'd be easier to close the chapter on imported fighters.

The PAF would be better served investing in turnkey manufacturing the air-to-air and air-to-surface munitions, configuring the JF-17 to optimal form (and adding more planes), and focusing on Project Azm.

i concur whole heartedly. They need to focus on blk3; learnings and probably plan for blk4 onwards as well.

the decades long blackmail of sanctions should be put to the side and forgotten.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

i concur whole heartedly. They need to focus on blk3; learnings and probably plan for blk4 onwards as well.

the decades long blackmail of sanctions should be put to the side and forgotten.

Agreed. Given its cost advantages, the JF-17 will remain indefinitely, it'll just evolve (much like the F-16) and -- ideally -- draw on the R&D work from Project Azm. I'd actually keep the JF-17 line and gradually expand it into a turnkey line in Kamra, while starting FGFA manufacturing in another area.

 

[denel]

Agreed. Given its cost advantages, the JF-17 will remain indefinitely, it'll just evolve (much like the F-16) and -- ideally -- draw on the R&D work from Project Azm. I'd actually keep the JF-17 line and gradually expand it into a turnkey line in Kamra, while starting FGFA manufacturing in another area.

absolutely, once the trainers come on line; there needs to be parallel R&D going to further evolving. I see the Blk 3 now as the baseline for future work.

 

[araz]

IMO ... it'd be easier to close the chapter on imported fighters.

The PAF would be better served investing in turnkey manufacturing the air-to-air and air-to-surface munitions, configuring the JF-17 to optimal form (and adding more planes), and focusing on Project Azm.

We need one more generation of fighters before we say goodbye to imports of fighters. Perhaps the Azm project outcome would herald independence from Foreign imports. I agree thatcthis is the way to go but you must remember it was not long go we did not have a BVR Missile. No one would sell us one. China's rise in the avionics and aeeronautical industry has opened doors for us that were previously locked shut nd the keys thrown away. I guess we will pass that threshold in the next 15 years nd propel our industries forward but this requires hard work, perseverence and finances.
A

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

absolutely, once the trainers come on line; there needs to be parallel R&D going to further evolving. I see the Blk 3 now as the baseline for future work.

Indeed. Really, the clean break happened with the JF-17B, which probably led to the Block-3. Either way, it's a platform with a digital FBW, decent payload, decent range, an AESA radar, and a modern EW/ECM and avionics suite. What more do you need? Just add more of these fighters, and make them as good as possible.

If there's money floating about for a fighter import, I'd much rather put it towards the Denel Dynamics Marlin, A-Darter, Raptor III, and Umbani/Tariq projects. Let's make these munitions in Pakistan (turn-key). Let's also develop a lightweight supersonic AShM (similar to the BrahMos NG), perhaps using SomChem's LRTM R&D as the basis.

 

[AsifIjaz]

Paf needs an interim fighter between thunder / vipers and azm end product..
Its can either be newer block 72 or V upgrade of current or used vipers acquired from jordan
Or
It can be block 3 thunders upgraded further or newer block 4.
Mig35, typhoons etc wont cut it but may rather prove to be detrimental to local progress and budget management in the longer run.
Newer or upgraded Viperz wud be easiest way out and getting a thunder near that capability wud be mammoth task but one that wud make azm a comparatively easier to achieve reality.

 

[Tank131]

The problem with saying goodbye to impirted fighters is that PAF needs to replace 190 more fighters to replace. At the current pace of 24/year you need 7.5 mor years. Even then, im not sure blk 3 will be up to the Rafale challenge. Furthermore, AZM wont be ready by then. So you definitely need a stop gap in there. Whether that is more used F-16or the potential for blk 72 or even used with the entire fleet being upgraded to V standard, i thinknthe easiest way for PAF to get the stopgap is through more F-16. There remain 80 or so F-7P and 60 PG in PAF (give or take). Additionally there are 80 or so non-rose mirage that need replacement. With that said 36-40 additional F-16 would be a boon for PAF numbers and would enable the conversion of the majority of the F-7P in conjunction with another this years 24 blk 2 JF-17. That takes most of the main flying coffins out of the sky.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

The problem with saying goodbye to impirted fighters is that PAF needs to replace 190 more fighters to replace. At the current pace of 24/year you need 7.5 mor years. Even then, im not sure blk 3 will be up to the Rafale challenge. Furthermore, AZM wont be ready by then. So you definitely need a stop gap in there. Whether that is more used F-16or the potential for blk 72 or even used with the entire fleet being upgraded to V standard, i thinknthe easiest way for PAF to get the stopgap is through more F-16. There remain 80 or so F-7P and 60 PG in PAF (give or take). Additionally there are 80 or so non-rose mirage that need replacement. With that said 36-40 additional F-16 would be a boon for PAF numbers and would enable the conversion of the majority of the F-7P in conjunction with another this years 24 blk 2 JF-17. That takes most of the main flying coffins out of the sky.

IMO it doesn't make a difference either way.

The PAF didn't avail (or couldn't) used F-16s via EDA. Pakistan generally lacks the money to import new-build fighters. The Russian route is a no-go. And it's not even clear what happened to the J-10B/C route, if there was ever one, but the PAF walked away from the FC-20 due to a lack of funds.

Basically, all we have now is adding JF-17s. Might as well push the output to the maximum rate possible (perhaps look at increasing it to 25-30 a year), or use whatever open funding we have to acquire longer-ranged and/or more effective AAM/ASM, radars, EW/ECM, etc., for the JF-17.

 

[Nasr]

At present, the most effective way forward is increasing the Viper fleet to above 130 fighters. At the same time, Pakistan Air Force needs to begin stockpiling large quantities of spare-parts for it's Viper fleet. And when I say spare-parts, I mean the core components that are pivotal to keep the fleet in the air. This includes engines, lots of them as well as looking to set up MRO facilities for the Viper fleet. Of course, if Pakistan Air Force has the option of upgrade to it's fleet, like the V-upgrade, then it should go for it. When Pakistan Air Force can achieve full MRO for Viper fleet, as well as have a large stockpile of core components. Then there isn't any need to look elsewhere for fighters and just focus on Thunder's upgrades and PAF's Gen-5 fighter program.

 

[Khafee]

Indeed. Really, the clean break happened with the JF-17B, which probably led to the Block-3. Either way, it's a platform with a digital FBW, decent payload, decent range, an AESA radar, and a modern EW/ECM and avionics suite. What more do you need? Just add more of these fighters, and make them as good as possible.

If there's money floating about for a fighter import, I'd much rather put it towards the Denel Dynamics Marlin, A-Darter, Raptor III, and Umbani/Tariq projects. Let's make these munitions in Pakistan (turn-key). Let's also develop a lightweight supersonic AShM (similar to the BrahMos NG), perhaps using SomChem's LRTM R&D as the basis.

CX-1...?

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

We order now we will get it in 100 years from USA
It's best we make our JF17 Thunder Block 2 sufficient and proper , and await it's Block III upgrade