Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[Windjammer]

 

[Donatello]

They have chutes for the situation, I don't know the rest. However in my view it would be suffice to use chutes and not have the arrest cables.

I think chutes are only on the new C/D F-16s of PAF.........not on the older ones...

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Do the PAF F-16 also have tail hooks as the other ones?

The tail hooks are used for tethering the aircraft during engine tests etc, but another use is of arresting the aircraft at the end of the runway in case of brake failure or runway over run. Just like an Aircraft carrier but on the ground and as a redundancy.

Does the PAF have arresting cables at the end of it's runways? The USAF has them.

I do not think so.
However Arrestor Net Barriers are available for the purpose. In dire straits, they can be erected in minutes and used. After the Tail Braking Chute(s) have failed/broken away, this method works. Finally, there is the overrun area after the end of the runway with gravel, then sand which will stop the aircraft. Arrestor wires (on land) with a tail-hook combination are an expensive/complicated proposition considering that they are likely to be seldom used.

 

[sancho]

Though i agree with the philosophy part, but MLU f-16s with AIM120s can take on anything in our adversary on east's inventory, including the upcoming Rafale.

BUt yea, i guess it is time to move on

Actually it don't since the versions you get are technically limited, compared to what LM other F16 operating countries have, to what radars, EW systems and missile combos IAF has and even to what JF 17 and J10Bs will bring to PAF.
I know that you and many Pakistani members might not like it, but the time of F16s beeing the prime fighter in PAF is nearing it's end, since China offers you more.
More agile WVR missile, BVR missiles with longer range than the AIM 120C5s are under development, integration of Raad, possibility of AESA radar and IRST, anti radiation missiles, heck even mid air refuelling. The Chinese fighters will make PAF much more capable in combination with tankers and AWACS, since the package of capabilities they offer is simply up to date, while even the F16 B52s hardly provide more than air defence and CAS capability now.
The F16 is still a highly capable multi role fighter, but as long as PAF don't get AIM 9X, AIM120D, AESA radar, better EWS, JSOW and SEAD capability, a lot of it's potential is cut down.

Btw, taking on Rafale F3+ ?

 

[Manticore]

The variety of weapons, costomizations and future upgrades that we can do on jf17s and j10b are far more than what we can ever achieve via f16s --- right now ideally, additional f16s should be considered as a stop gap measure and our future should not be built around it --- however its difficult to think objectively when our economy is crippled by dishonest politicians

If we have to choose between j31 and j10b, then the way to go ahead would be j31 from china and used f16s from the u.s at cheep price --- but who know if we are even at that financial capability or not

 

[Donatello]

Actually it don't since the versions you get are technically limited, compared to what LM other F16 operating countries have, to what radars, EW systems and missile combos IAF has and even to what JF 17 and J10Bs will bring to PAF.
I know that you and many Pakistani members might not like it, but the time of F16s beeing the prime fighter in PAF is nearing it's end, since China offers you more.
More agile WVR missile, BVR missiles with longer range than the AIM 120C5s are under development, integration of Raad, possibility of AESA radar and IRST, anti radiation missiles, heck even mid air refuelling. The Chinese fighters will make PAF much more capable in combination with tankers and AWACS, since the package of capabilities they offer is simply up to date, while even the F16 B52s hardly provide more than air defence and CAS capability now.
The F16 is still a highly capable multi role fighter, but as long as PAF don't get AIM 9X, AIM120D, AESA radar, better EWS, JSOW and SEAD capability, a lot of it's potential is cut down.

Btw, taking on Rafale F3+ ?

Nobody is doubting the Chinese weapons procurement, and for the foreseeable future that is the only option considering the amount of literally unlimited options Pakistan can play with.

My point is, that MLU-ed F-16s can easily match any 4 to 4.5 gen fighter in India's Hand for the next 10 years. If we can get used F-16s and get them MLU-ed to last even another 3000 hours, it would that proverbial a bird in hand is better than two in the bush thing. PAF has unmatched experience of F-16s since what? 3 decades!!! It's a plane we know inside out and hence any new versions would easily absorbed by the flying pilots.

Which brings me to your comment about Rafale, which IAF pilots have no real world flying experience in........(Sorry, but flying for MMRCA tender evaluations doesn't count)


Rafale F3+? Seriously? Is that level you stoop down to?

First get Rafale inducted, let alone upgrades.

You need to raise a squadron of Rafales first, get pilots experience. You think an average IAF bloke can jump in Rafale F3+ and take on PAF f-16s with pilots who have been flying for decades? If you say yes, i guess you are just kidding yourself. By the time Rafales are flying with IAF, even JF-17 pilots would've been flying JF-17s for 5 years!!!!

 

[muse]

Donnatello:

Take your point, but is it not time to move on? When will we in your opinion, be positioned to move on - This whole US thing has no where to go, that is to say there is nothing US or Pakistan can do or say they will do, that is going to chance or effect public opinion in either country in a positive way, in a long term way, there appears to be no confluence of broad interest nor the possibility of such in the near term - so when do we cut our losses and position ourselves to be beyond the US and here I mean US equipment ?

 

[Imran Khan]

 

[Chanakyaa]

Nobody is doubting the Chinese weapons procurement, and for the foreseeable future that is the only option considering the amount of literally unlimited options Pakistan can play with.

My point is, that MLU-ed F-16s can easily match any 4 to 4.5 gen fighter in India's Hand for the next 10 years. If we can get used F-16s and get them MLU-ed to last even another 3000 hours, it would that proverbial a bird in hand is better than two in the bush thing. PAF has unmatched experience of F-16s since what? 3 decades!!! It's a plane we know inside out and hence any new versions would easily absorbed by the flying pilots.

Which brings me to your comment about Rafale, which IAF pilots have no real world flying experience in........(Sorry, but flying for MMRCA tender evaluations doesn't count)


Rafale F3+? Seriously? Is that level you stoop down to?

First get Rafale inducted, let alone upgrades.

You need to raise a squadron of Rafales first, get pilots experience. You think an average IAF bloke can jump in Rafale F3+ and take on PAF f-16s with pilots who have been flying for decades? If you say yes, i guess you are just kidding yourself. By the time Rafales are flying with IAF, even JF-17 pilots would've been flying JF-17s for 5 years!!!!

With all due respect, IAF Has Far Far More Experiance Than PAF ( As Far as F16s & Countermeasures are Concerned ).
IAF has been regularily having Excersises AGAINST F16 52 , and Singapore AF has been Given a Regular Base as Well, In a sharp contrast Su MKI ( Very Very Different frm Su 30 MK ) is an Alien Bird for PAF.

We Know F16 Much Better Than PAF Knows MKI ( Or for that matter Rafale in Future )

 

[SQ8]

With all due respect, IAF Has Far Far More Experiance Than PAF ( As Far as F16s are Concerned ).
IAF has been regularily having Excersises AGAINST F16 52 , and Singapore AF has been Given a Regular Base as Well, In a sharp contrast Su MKI ( Very Very Different frm Su 30 MK ) is an Alien Bird for PAF.

We Know F16 Much Better Than PAF Knows MKI ( Or for that matter Rafale in Future )

But then again... it is up to the user how the weapon system is employed. The IAF can only learn so much about the aircraft and not its employment tactics within the PAF.
After all, the USAF knows all about the Mig-29 through its early evaluations(with Israel) in the late 80's and early 90's.
Yet, when the unification of germany happened and Luftwaffe pilots went up against USAF units.. they showed different tactics that ended up surprising the Americans. The problem was not that the USAF did not know about how the mig-29 flew and its limitations..
It DID NOT KNOW HOW THE LUFTWAFFE PILOTS WOULD EMPLOY THEM

 

[Donatello]

With all due respect, IAF Has Far Far More Experiance Than PAF ( As Far as F16s & Countermeasures are Concerned ).
IAF has been regularily having Excersises AGAINST F16 52 , and Singapore AF has been Given a Regular Base as Well, In a sharp contrast Su MKI ( Very Very Different frm Su 30 MK ) is an Alien Bird for PAF.

We Know F16 Much Better Than PAF Knows MKI ( Or for that matter Rafale in Future )

That is total bullshit. IAF doesn't have anything with respect to F-16 as much as PAF knows it. PAF OWNS and Operates F-16s. IAF can never match that. Get over it!!

 

[Chanakyaa]

That is total bullshit. IAF doesn't have anything with respect to F-16 as much as PAF knows it. PAF OWNS and Operates F-16s. IAF can never match that. !!

True & Correct.

Now Please Read My Post and Oscar's Reply.

 

[Edevelop]

The variety of weapons, costomizations and future upgrades that we can do on jf17s and j10b are far more than what we can ever achieve via f16s --- right now ideally, additional f16s should be considered as a stop gap measure and our future should not be built around it --- however its difficult to think objectively when our economy is crippled by dishonest politicians

If we have to choose between j31 and j10b, then the way to go ahead would be j31 from china and used f16s from the u.s at cheep price --- but who know if we are even at that financial capability or not

Notice the top 3 are Generals. It is evident that they were all pro US and thus had received Aid. It started from Ayub Khan to counter Soviets, then went on to Gen Zia Haq due to Afghan War and then came to Musharraf era due to 9/11 War against Terror.

 

[sancho]

You are putting too much emotions in these things, instead of looking at it with a more rational view.

My point is, that MLU-ed F-16s can easily match any 4 to 4.5 gen fighter in India's Hand for the next 10 years.

As I said, technically it lacks the mentioned capabilities and that even compared against IAFs low end (Mig 29UPG, Mirage 2000-5, LCA), let alone MKIs and Rafales.
In WVR combats for example, the lack of an agile IR missile is a clear disadvantage. Beeing limited to radar to detect targets is another, while modern fighters also offers passive detection capabilities, be it with IRST, RWR, MAWS, LWR, ESM...
That's what I said earlier, these things are partially available to PAF through JF 17, or coming in later JFT blocks or J10s, while they will be the standard for IAF, especially for the upgraded or newly added fighter types.

You can compare that also to the F16s of Israel, Singapore, or S. Korea, that have integrated US and Israeli EW systems, or more capable missiles too, which shows the differences as well, let alone to UAEs B60.

Which brings me to your comment about Rafale

My comment was based on the technical difference between both fighters, not on any emotional issues. It's technically simply more than a class apart, no matter if you like it or not!

If you look at the facts, you would understand that it doesn't matter how much experience PAF pilots have with F16s, because for once that is only experience for the base fighter, not the 4 th gen capabilities which are new to PAF as well and secondly because experience of the pilots won't make the F16...

…less detectable to Rafales AESA, or to SPECTRA sensors
...capable to detect Rafale earlier
...missile combo as good as MICA / METEOR
...flight performance as good as Rafales
...EWS as good as SPECTRA


These are technical differences that PAF can't counter with the limitations in the US export policy towards your country and has nothing to do with India or IAF.

 

[sancho]

But then again... it is up to the user how the weapon system is employed. The IAF can only learn so much about the aircraft and not its employment tactics within the PAF.
After all, the USAF knows all about the Mig-29 through its early evaluations(with Israel) in the late 80's and early 90's.
Yet, when the unification of germany happened and Luftwaffe pilots went up against USAF units.. they showed different tactics that ended up surprising the Americans. The problem was not that the USAF did not know about how the mig-29 flew and its limitations..
It DID NOT KNOW HOW THE LUFTWAFFE PILOTS WOULD EMPLOY THEM

You are right about, that India won't learn about the tactics PAF would use, just by training with F16s of Singapore or Israel, but the part about the Migs is not correct.

The surprising point was not how the German piltos flew them, but the technical capabilities the Migs had, compared to the once that Israel and the US tested! The Germans tested Mig 29s with HMS and R73 missiles, which turned out to be a threat for their Phantom fighters, because the R73 was way more agile than western counterparts. The Migs the US trained with, didn't had such capabilities, therefor the US couldn't train to counter this until they know about it. The result was, to improve their own HMS capabilities and develop modern WVR missiles with comparable capabilities as R73. That's why Asraam, IRIS-T, AIM9X or MICA were developed with TVC and high off boresight seekers.