Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[SQ8]

You are right about, that India won't learn about the tactics PAF would use, just by training with F16s of Singapore or Israel, but the part about the Migs is not correct.

The surprising point was not how the German piltos flew them, but the technical capabilities the Migs had, compared to the once that Israel and the US tested! The Germans tested Mig 29s with HMS and R73 missiles, which turned out to be a threat for their Phantom fighters, because the R73 was way more agile than western counterparts. The Migs the US trained with, didn't had such capabilities, therefor the US couldn't train to counter this until they know about it. The result was, to improve their own HMS capabilities and develop modern WVR missiles with comparable capabilities as R73. That's why Asraam, IRIS-T, AIM9X or MICA were developed with TVC and high off boresight seekers.

Undoubtedly the archer played a great role ..but the Luftwaffe put some of its best pilots into those fighters. They knew how to use the system to its maximum potential.

 

[sancho]

Undoubtedly the archer played a great role ..but the Luftwaffe put some of its best pilots into those fighters. They knew how to use the system to its maximum potential.

They had to, because they wasn't trained on them either, but wanted to learn about the advantages and disadvantages and these Migs were technically the most capable, the western countries got their hands on at that time:

Positives

But when all that is said and done, the MiG-29 is a superb fighter for close-in combat, even compared with aircraft like the F-15, F-16 and F/A-18. This is due to the aircraft’s superb aerodynamics and helmet mounted sight. Inside ten nautical miles I’m hard to defeat, and with the IRST, helmet sight and ‘Archer’ I can’t be beaten. Period. Even against the latest Block 50 F-16s the MiG-29 is virtually invulnerable in the close-in scenario. On one occasion I remember the F-16s did score some kills eventually, but only after taking 18 ‘Archers’. We didn’t operate kill removal (forcing ‘killed’ aircraft to leave the fight) since they’d have got no training value, we killed them too quickly. (Just as we might seldom have got close-in if they used their AMRAAMs BVR!) They couldn’t believe it at the debrief, they got up and left the room!

"They might not like it, but with a 28deg/sec instantaneous turn rate (compared to the Block 50 F-16's 26deg) we can out-turn them. Our stable, manually controlled airplane can out-turn their FBW aircraft. But the real edge we have is the ‘Archer’ which can reliably lock on to targets 45deg off-boresight...

Luftwaffe MiG-29 experience - positives and negatives


Sorry for the OT post and no comparison to IAF intended, just for information reasons!

 

[Thorough Pro]

Foreign aid has nothing to do with GDP growth. Your GDP grows with sensible economic policies and peoples confidence in the governwemnt.


Give me one example of any economic policy of this governemnt aimed at improving the economy?

Notice the top 3 are Generals. It is evident that they were all pro US and thus had received Aid. It started from Ayub Khan to counter Soviets, then went on to Gen Zia Haq due to Afghan War and then came to Musharraf era due to 9/11 War against Terror.

 

[razgriz19]

That's a great watch by the looks of it.

could be a Breitling...
My most favorite watch maker.

They make watches for pilots and aviation purposes.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Do the PAF F-16 also have tail hooks as the other ones?

The tail hooks are used for tethering the aircraft during engine tests etc, but another use is of arresting the aircraft at the end of the runway in case of brake failure or runway over run. Just like an Aircraft carrier but on the ground and as a redundancy.

Does the PAF have arresting cables at the end of it's runways? The USAF has them.

I was under impression that arrestor hook is only for use on aircrafts assigned to carriers during carrier landings (which are very complex an difficult to master)

For runways I think parachute is sufficient

 

[Jango]

I was under impression that arrestor hook is only for use on aircrafts assigned to carriers during carrier landings (which are very complex an difficult to master)

For runways I think parachute is sufficient

That was my initial thought as well, but F-16's don't land on A/C, and USAF uses the arrestor cables on it's runways just before the run-off area at the end in case something goes wrong.

The Israeli F-15 in '83 had the arrestor cable to thank! Although the hook broke off in the end, but it slowed down the aircraft's speed...

 

[jahanzeb111]

y israeli pilots r termed as best in the world??? the thing is israelis won air battle against the weak arabs when v compare jet/technology......
they could be best when they will up against the airforces- head-to-head in jet/technology

paf pilots shot down many israeli jets but no one talks about our pilots.

and y israel has free hand to destroy any one, on the other hand v cant use f16 when v want.....

comment plz........

y israeli pilots r termed as best in the world??? the thing is israelis won air battle against the weak arabs when v compare jet/technology......
they could be best when they will up against the airforces- head-to-head in jet/technology

paf pilots shot down many israeli jets but no one talks about our pilots.

and y israel has free hand to destroy any one, on the other hand v cant use f16 when v want.....

comment plz........

 

[Peaceful Civilian]

Could it be possible to test our Raad cruise missile from F16???

 

[krash]

I was under impression that arrestor hook is only for use on aircrafts assigned to carriers during carrier landings (which are very complex an difficult to master)

For runways I think parachute is sufficient

Some videos in addition to what nucleapak explained:

All sorts of emergency stopping systems:

 

[Thorough Pro]

I remember in the old days many of PAF runways used to have end of the runway nets to stop run away planes.

 

[krash]

Dont know if this has been shared here before...

Hand over ceremony of the first MLUed PAF F-16 from TAI:

That is one hell of a looker....the bird, not anyone of the old chaps.

 

[fatman17]

Dont know if this has been shared here before...

Hand over ceremony of the first MLUed PAF F-16 from TAI:

That is one hell of a looker....the bird, not anyone of the old chaps.

these birds will be good for another 20 years

 

[fatman17]

Chinese missile may be for Pakistan's F-16s:


Last posted:
2004-04-14

China is about to bring a second beyond-visual-range (BVR) air-to-air missile (AAM) to the export market. The new weapon, to be known as the FD-60, is already in service with the People's Liberation Army Air Force as the PL-11.

In China it equips the Shen- yang J-8II 'Finback' interceptor but, according to the manufacturer, the export version is intended for the F-16 - a clear signal that Pakistan could be the lead customer.

Development of the FD-60 (PL-11) began in 1987 and was completed in 2000, according to the China National Precision Machinery Import & Export Corporation (CPMIEC). The weapon is described as an air-launched version of the LY-60 surface-to-air missile. It uses semi-active radar homing and has a range of 20-25km.

The missile borrows heavily from Aspide technology supplied by Italy before an arms embargo was imposed on China following the Tiananmen Square massacre.

China also had access to early-model US-built AIM-7 Sparrow missiles acquired via Vietnam, from which the Aspide itself is derived. Since the late 1980s Chinese technicians have been developing a Sparrow-class missile that led to the LY-60 and FD-60weapons.

Until now most observers had assessed the PL-11/FD-60 programme as a largely unsuccessful effort that had been overtaken by the more advanced PL-12/SD-10 active-radar AAM, developed under the leadership of the China National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corp (CATIC). However, it now appears that work on the PL-11/FD-60 has continued, perhaps to provide a back-up capability in the event of problems with the PL-12/SD-10 but also because CPMIEC has identified an export market for the missile.

As the FD-60 is based largely on the Aspide/Sparrow design, integrating it with US-built aircraft should be relatively straightforward. Such a missile would be of great interest to existing customers of Chinese equipment, such as Pakistan and Iran, that have inventories of US fighters for which they cannot obtain advanced weapons - chiefly BVR missiles.

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is already working on acquiring a BVR combat capability through the SD-10 and JF-17 Thunder (CATIC FC-1 fighter) combination. However, the opportunity to add a BVR AAM to its inventory much sooner (via the F-16) would surely be seized by the PAF command, which has already identified such weapons as one of its highest acquisition priorities.


did this initiative see the light of day or not?

 

[Najam Khan]

Do the PAF F-16 also have tail hooks as the other ones?

The tail hooks are used for tethering the aircraft during engine tests etc, but another use is of arresting the aircraft at the end of the runway in case of brake failure or runway over run. Just like an Aircraft carrier but on the ground and as a redundancy.

Does the PAF have arresting cables at the end of it's runways? The USAF has them.

Yes F-16s have them, you can see that hook present between the ventral fins (on the left of centerline fuel tank) in the following photo.

A US Air Force F-16 Fighting Falcon based at Misawa AB, Japan, is shown after engine shutdown during the annual test of the aircraft arresting barrier system at Yokota AB, Japan, on 13 July 2011. The system is used in the event of an emergency where a fighter or similar aircraft cannot stop on its own. The aircraft's tailhook catches the cable stretched across the runway and massive hydraulic reels slowly bring the aircraft to a stop. : Code one

@Windjammer, Kindly don't post references to copyrights violated photos. If people will start cropping pics from PAFwallpapers, I might have to become strict on that watermark policy again.

 

[Jango]

Chinese missile may be for Pakistan's F-16s:

...
did this initiative see the light of day or not?

For Pakistan, I highly doubt it, with the 24/7 US surveillance on our aircraft.

It would be much more suited to the Iranians than us.
@Najam Khan, only Blk-52's? And secondly, are PAF crews trained on them?