Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[mean_bird]

i think this is the post from where all ou people got it wrong!

seniors, and other members the post states that the turkish upgrade to start from 2010, it is NOT the MLU!

the MLU is being carried out by the US adn will be done earlier! the post was regarding some upgrades that the turkish will bring to our block 15 MLU F16z so it will will further be modrenised!

i hope you get the point now that the MLU and the turkish upgrades are different programmes!

I think it is one and the same. The equipment will be bought from US and the word done in Turkey. Remember also that the F-16 will undergo both the MLU for incorporating newer equipments and the Falcon Star upgrade for zeroing the life of the airframe

anyhow regarless of this i do agree with Mastan Sb that all that he had been screaming is totally right! the US MLU may well turn out to be a stab in the back!! we MUST NOT TRUST THE US!!

regards!

And what options did we have?

Go for the Grippen/EF? same US control. Besides, Sweden even said the Grippen isn't on offer. Go for french Rafales? I don't think we can afford it. All talk goes back to "supposed" UAE Mirages on sale but UAE has yet to buy the Rafale. Its only 'if' we buy it and 'when' UAE recieves its Rafales would these planes be available to us.

I think we have talked about it enough already to start another debate. THe best thing is get EU components in JF-17 and get it up in the airs ASAP. What I would be complaining about is not the F-16 but sanctions have been off since 2002-3. Why haven't we finalized the EU avioncs for JF-17 yet?

 

[Munir]

THe best thing is get EU components in JF-17 and get it up in the airs ASAP. What I would be complaining about is not the F-16 but sanctions have been off since 2002-3. Why haven't we finalized the EU avioncs for JF-17 yet?

Meanbird.... Thanks to this government we started the JF17 production today while we could have started it in 2007... This government was not willing to finance it so PAF got soft loans from China... Do we have to talk more?

 

[BATMAN]

Meanbird.... Thanks to this government we started the JF17 production today while we could have started it in 2007... This government was not willing to finance it so PAF got soft loans from China... Do we have to talk more?

Pakistan media and famous defence analyst dare not to discuss this fact.
I expect to see the picture of Balawal Bhutto painted on first JF-17.

 

[qsaark]

Meanbird.... Thanks to this government we started the JF17 production today while we could have started it in 2007... This government was not willing to finance it so PAF got soft loans from China... Do we have to talk more?

Pakistan media and famous defence analyst dare not to discuss this fact.

A reference for these allegation will be highly apperciated.

 

[mean_bird]

Meanbird.... Thanks to this government we started the JF17 production today while we could have started it in 2007... This government was not willing to finance it so PAF got soft loans from China... Do we have to talk more?

Yeah, but we had lots of time before this govt. to finalize what avionics we wanted. Or perhaps we were waiting to get the latest since avionics advance quite rapidly and China has been growing well in this aspect.

A reference for these allegation will be highly apperciated.

I believe Munir is referring to the speech by ACM posted in the JF-17 thread in which he says the program was affected twice - first in 2001 which was solved by the efforts of Mushaf Ali Mir and secondly in the year 2007-8, when PAF did not have funding to start the project and had to work and get a loan from China.

Its obvious they aren't getting it from the govt. that is why they are seeking the loan from China. They are supposed to have money according to the AFDP but they are looking for loan, why?

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

All talk goes back to "supposed" UAE Mirages on sale but UAE has yet to buy the Rafale

these crazy Emiratee walas. They have Block 60 F16Es ---the only country in the world to have them.

Why do they need Rafales too?

Do you think it would be wise for us to purchase Mirage-2000s considering that indians already have them and are experienced with them?

Is there a ROSE-type upgrade for the 2000s?

Sooner or later we will have to retire the Mirage-IIIs (except maybe some of the upgraded ones) because their air-frames are getting quite worn out.

best thing is get EU components in JF-17 and get it up in the airs ASAP. What I would be complaining about is not the F-16 but sanctions have been off since 2002-3. Why haven't we finalized the EU avioncs for JF-17 yet?

I absolutely 1000% agree with you on this.


If indians don't opt for Mig-35 (or any Russian aircraft) I think Moscow will immediately provide support to Pakistan to provide radar/avionics/weapons package for JF-17

I know that russian mentality. They love the cash. If the indians let them down, they will turn to Pakistan (even though we arent exactly well-endowed financially at the moment)

 

[fatman17]

EUROPE
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2009

Jane's Defence Weekly

Turkey's TAI wins mid-life upgrade contract for Pakistan's F-16s

Jon Grevatt Jane's Asia-Pacific Industry Reporter - Bangkok

Turkey's Tusas Aerospace Industries (TAI) signed a contract with the Pakistan Ministry of Defence on 29 June to carry out the mid-life upgrade of 42 Pakistan Air Force (PAF) F-16 aircraft, the company has announced.

A statement said work under the deal, which is valued at around USD75 million, would start in October 2010 and take 46 months to complete.

The contract is a follow-on from a memorandum of understanding signed in late 2006 at the IDEAS Defence Exhibition in Karachi.

Jane's reported at the time that the deal, which will upgrade Block 15 aircraft to Block 40 standard, would see a small number of F-16s upgraded at TAI facilities in Turkey while the remaining aircraft would be upgraded in Pakistan.

The work is seen by both countries as part of increasing efforts to increase defence industry collaboration. This has seen the two countries agree to co-operate in the research and development of a broad range of defence platforms, including medium-altitude long-endurance unmanned aerial vehicles.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

I am very disappointed at PAF...
46 MLU in 6-7 years since negotiation? and that to block 40 standard? what happened to APG-68 V9, ALQ-213, Sinper pods?? i thought they were pretty much part of the deal which would bring our f-sola to bock 50 standard? but here we are stuck with old garbage.. I am sorry to say but i think the transition of making PAK military a puppet police force is under way and soon we will be nothing but Egyptian type controlled military...
i am getting soooooooooooooo.. disappointed at PAF..
why?
i have to admit, that PAF acquisition and timing sucks big time!

and no.. i am not going to be a fanboy and say... hey PAF should have bought 80 EF-2000, 20 Rafale etc..

 

[FulcrumD]

these crazy Emiratee walas. They have Block 60 F16Es ---the only country in the world to have them.

Why do they need Rafales too?

Do you think it would be wise for us to purchase Mirage-2000s considering that indians already have them and are experienced with them?

Is there a ROSE-type upgrade for the 2000s?

Sooner or later we will have to retire the Mirage-IIIs (except maybe some of the upgraded ones) because their air-frames are getting quite worn out.






I absolutely 1000% agree with you on this.


If indians don't opt for Mig-35 (or any Russian aircraft) I think Moscow will immediately provide support to Pakistan to provide radar/avionics/weapons package for JF-17

I know that russian mentality. They love the cash. If the indians let them down, they will turn to Pakistan (even though we arent exactly well-endowed financially at the moment)

What a logic!why would Russia do so?as per the list of contracts they still are no.1 suppliers to India,IAF & HAL are already under contract to co-develop the PAK FA,this contract itself will fetch Russia more than 8$Billion plus all the other goodies we already buy from them.Pakistan is in no way a replacement to India and Russia in no way can annoy India when it comes to defence deals,the results are renegotiations and guaranty for Gorshkov delivery,before the time completion of Krivak IV,Brahmos,Customisation offer for 6 Amur class Subs ,the list goes on and on.

 

[Sunny4pak]

I think Glower u r rite brother, its too much time and after so much time these birds will be upgraded to block 40................
Come On PAF

 

[Munir]

I am very disappointed at PAF...
46 MLU in 6-7 years since negotiation? and that to block 40 standard? what happened to APG-68 V9, ALQ-213, Sinper pods?? i thought they were pretty much part of the deal which would bring our f-sola to bock 50 standard? but here we are stuck with old garbage.. I am sorry to say but i think the transition of making PAK military a puppet police force is under way and soon we will be nothing but Egyptian type controlled military...
i am getting soooooooooooooo.. disappointed at PAF..
why?
i have to admit, that PAF acquisition and timing sucks big time!

and no.. i am not going to be a fanboy and say... hey PAF should have bought 80 EF-2000, 20 Rafale etc..

I think you need to see FC20 as the real target and mlu just as quantity and diversity... Pak has shifted its pro US policiy.

 

[Tempest II]

I think you need to see FC20 as the real target and mlu just as quantity and diversity... Pak has shifted its pro US policiy.

I agree with you. If you consider that the F-16 are going to be introduced until 2014. FC-20 will start AFTER 2014. Logically, assuming PAF is upgrading, FC-20 will be to a highier standard/have more capability. Consider also that the F-16 is well past its prime (i.e. room for expansion and uopgrades) and the FC-20 is VERY YOUNG INDEED - still lots of room for improvement. Imagine where the JF-17 was 5 year ago (2004) ... ... and where it is now? There has been lots of capability improvement that has come to light. Assume the same for FC-20.

 

[sancho]

I am very disappointed at PAF...
46 MLU in 6-7 years since negotiation? and that to block 40 standard? what happened to APG-68 V9, ALQ-213, Sinper pods?? i thought they were pretty much part of the deal which would bring our f-sola to bock 50 standard? but here we are stuck with old garbage..

What features will PAF F16 Block 40 have then?
What about F100-PW-229, AN/APG-68 (V9) radar, CFT and JHMCS helmet?
These features come with block 50/52, can they be added to block 40 too?

 

[Manticore]

paf f-16 mlu specifications

3 qoutes by meanbird in different threads

Actually, a unique feature of PAF is that almost everything it gets is customized. Even when we got the blk 15 F-16s in the 80s, they were customized and were slightly different from the standard blk 15 that were sold to other countries.

Even now, the MLU PAF F-16s are getting are customized rather than standard MLU-3 or MLU-4.

Let me try to explain

MLU-3 in made up of the following.

Automatic Target Hand-off System (ATHS)
Integration of anti radiation missile capability
Integration of target designator system
Further implementation of the Digital Terrain System
Integration of the Link-16 system
Integration of capability for GPS controlled weapons (GBU30/32)
Introduction of Helmet Mounted/Cueing Sight
Introduction of NVG compatible helmets

Where as the MLU 4 Tape has the following features which PAF is not aquiring because of financial crunch,

M4 tape contains in addition to above:

Introduction of advanced short-range missile, as a replacement for the current Sidewinder (AIM-9X, IRIS-T)
Integration of advanced Link-16 functions
Integration of SNIPER targeting pods


Here's what PAF is getting:
The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of 60 F-16A/B Mid-Life Update (MLU)modification and Falcon Star Structural Service Life Enhancement kits consisting of:

APG-68(V)9 with Synthetic Aperture Radar or APG-66(V)2 radar;
Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems;
AN/APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems;
AN/ALE-47 Advanced Countermeasures Dispenser Systems;
Have Quick I/II Radios;
Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals;

SNIPER (formerly known as AN/AAQ-33 PANTERA) targeting pod capability;
Reconnaissance pod capability;

Advanced Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation Units;
MDE included in the MLU modification and structural upgrade kits
21 ALQ-131 Block II Electronic Countermeasures Pods without the Digital Radio Frequency
Memory (DRFM) or ALQ-184 Electronic Countermeasures Pods without DRFM;
60 ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management Systems;
1 Unit Level Trainer; and
10 APG-68(V)9 spare radar sets.


So you can see that everything there is just a customized upgrade rather then a MLU-3 or MLU-4. The only thing missing is integration of AIM-9X sidewinders(5th gen) because we are getting the AIM-9M sidewinders (the latest ones before the 5th gen).

Hope that explains it...so it is blk 50 standard


Here's a link to exactly what PAF is getting
http://www.dsca.mil/pressreleases/36-b/2006/Pakistan_06-10.pdf

Falcon Star upgrade for the airframe life

PAF F-16s will be brought up to blk 52 standard minus 3 things

1. there are no improvements to the Block 15s mission range and loiter time;
2. there are no engine improvements; and,
3. there are no improvements to payload capacity

It has other things that come with blk 52 like APG-68v9 radar, JHMCS, JDAM, AGM-84 Harpoon capability, etc

perhaps the upgradation is somewhat inbetween the 2 blks, and paf wisely is labelling it as blk40 +some added tweaks, so as to get more money approved for chinese jets?


The rest will be upgraded by TUSAS in Pakistan Sarghoda or Kamra... so it would be difficult for india to keep track of our operational numbers?

 

[mean_bird]

I am very disappointed at PAF...
46 MLU in 6-7 years since negotiation? and that to block 40 standard? what happened to APG-68 V9, ALQ-213, Sinper pods?? i thought they were pretty much part of the deal which would bring our f-sola to bock 50 standard? but here we are stuck with old garbage.. I am sorry to say but i think the transition of making PAK military a puppet police force is under way and soon we will be nothing but Egyptian type controlled military...
i am getting soooooooooooooo.. disappointed at PAF..
why?
i have to admit, that PAF acquisition and timing sucks big time!

and no.. i am not going to be a fanboy and say... hey PAF should have bought 80 EF-2000, 20 Rafale etc..

While I do not intend to defend the action of PAF. They are just another organization in pakistan and like any other organization they too have some corruption and its officers aren't aliens but fellow countrymen.

Before putting the whole blame on PAF, however, it would be wiser to analyze the situation. What are people complaining? that Pakistan had the sanctions lifted and hence PAF should have immediately bought all the stuff and got the MLU ASAP.

Let me bring some other issues.

- When did the US approve of the MLU sales?
- How are we going to finance the purchase?
- How are we going to do the upgradation?

Now 'if ' US approved the sales on 9/12, 2001, AND we have lots of money to pay, AND companies capable of doing the upgradation are idle and waiting for us, THEN we can rightly complain that all the delay is due to PAF. That however is not the case.

- US only approved the sales only in 2006.

- The money for the MLU is coming from FMF so US congress also has to approve that.

- Both LM and TAI aren't sitting idle but working on different other projects.

As of Sept. 7, 2008, US congress had yet to approve using FMF for F-16 upgradation and money from the national fund is only available post 2009. Is it the fault of PAF? NO. Its the fault of govt. to provide PAF money to carry out the MLU. If PAF had used its money, then we would have had to either cut down on Erieye, or postpone JF-17. Would those that are crying have loved that instead? Or the function of our Foreign ministry to say, we cannot gurantee good relations with US so even if you have to through away the F-16s, do not do any deal with US.

Frankly, if you want to get planes from US using US money, the timeline is not in your hands. Either get some cash and an influential govt. or don't complain about delays and being puppets.

Do you still think PAF MLU program sucks?

I think Glower u r rite brother, its too much time and after so much time these birds will be upgraded to block 40................
Come On PAF

I have explicitly detailed the exact configuration of PAF MLU in the post quoted by AB. That data is far more reliable than anything from Jane's so I don't care what Jane's write.