Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2
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Tehmasib
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MELBOURNE: Pakistan is in negotiations with the U.S. to get more Lockheed Martin F-16s over and above what it already has on order, while at the same time it develops its defense manufacturing capability to reduce its reliance on the U.S.
We have plans to have more F-16s and are negotiating with the U.S. government for more, says Air Chief Marshall Rao Qamar Suleman, the Pakistani air force chief of air staff. Rao spoke to Aviation Week here, where he was attending an air chiefs conference.
When asked how many more aircraft Pakistan wants, Rao declines to specify the number on the grounds that we are still in the process of negotiations. It depends in what form and the time frame, he adds.
In 2006 the U.S. Congress agreed to give Pakistan 28 F-16C/Ds under an excess-defense articles scheme. Pakistan recently received the first 14, but has yet to get the others. Rao says it is unclear when these aircraft will arrive and it is part of the current negotiations.
Pakistan has a total of 63 F-16s, of which 45 are A/Bs and 18 are C/Ds. Rao says all the A/Bs are to undergo a midlife upgrade and become C/D aircraft close to block 50 standard. The first three A/Bs are now undergoing the upgrade at Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI). In 2013-2014 all of the A/Bs will have been upgraded to C/Ds. He also says four other F-16s were sent to the U.S. for technical verification inspections so the upgrade kits could be developed that TAI will install.
While Pakistan is an ally of the U.S., it is also an ally of China. Pakistan, for example, is producing JF-17 fighters at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex in Kamra, a city in northern Pakistan. The JF-17 is a fighter jointly developed by China and Pakistan.
Rao says since becoming chief of air staff, he has made a concerted effort to increase the manufacturing capability of Pakistans defense industry. This is important because the country has in the past been subject to sanctions and embargoes, including by the U.S. over its nuclear weapons efforts.
Rao says Pakistan will have the second squadron of JF-17s enter operation at the end of March while simultaneously phasing out all of its Nanchang A-5s. The A-5 is a ground attack aircraft from China that was first produced in 1969.
As for the Chengdu F-7s and Dassault Mirages, we will phase these out as we get JF-17s, Rao says. Some of Pakistans Mirages are the oldest in the world, he says, adding that some were built in 1967. Phasing out the older Mirages is a top priority. The Mirages are difficult and costly to maintain because no one is producing spare parts for these aircraft anymore, he says. We are getting secondhand parts, but we dont know the history of these spare parts we are getting. Its a flight safety issue and a nightmare for me, he adds.
When asked about datalinks that could connect the F-16s to the JF-17s, Rao says Pakistan is working to develop its own solution. We have Link 16 on the F-16s. We will not fiddle with Link 16 and not have direct linkages [between the JF-17s] with the F-16. However, we are trying to develop our own tactical datalink. It will send information from the JF-17 to a ground station where there will be an interface, he says, adding there will be a short delay, and then the information will be sent to the F-16s.
Like with its fighters, Pakistan also has different types of airborne early warning and control aircraft. The country has three Saab Erieye aircraft and will receive its fourth by midyear, Rao says. This is its last Saab Erieye on order. Pakistan will also receive in the middle of the year its first Shaanxi ZDK-03. Pakistan has four on order, and the first rolled out of the Shaanxi Aircraft factory in November. But Rao says China is still busy installing the equipment and doing the necessary upgrades.
Another major requirement that Pakistan has is for UAVs. It already has Italian Selex Galileo Falco UAVs, and Rao says Pakistan has reached an agreement with the company whereby some Falcos will be made in Pakistan for the local market and export. Production will start in Pakistan this year, he says. In the past Pakistan reportedly wanted to have the Falco armed, a request that Italy rejected. Rao says the UAVs made in Pakistan will carry no weapons and will be for reconnaissance and surveillance, mostly of areas where insurgents and terrorists may be hiding.
We have plans to have more F-16s and are negotiating with the U.S. government for more, says Air Chief Marshall Rao Qamar Suleman, the Pakistani air force chief of air staff. Rao spoke to Aviation Week here, where he was attending an air chiefs conference.
When asked how many more aircraft Pakistan wants, Rao declines to specify the number on the grounds that we are still in the process of negotiations. It depends in what form and the time frame, he adds.
In 2006 the U.S. Congress agreed to give Pakistan 28 F-16C/Ds under an excess-defense articles scheme. Pakistan recently received the first 14, but has yet to get the others. Rao says it is unclear when these aircraft will arrive and it is part of the current negotiations.
Pakistan has a total of 63 F-16s, of which 45 are A/Bs and 18 are C/Ds. Rao says all the A/Bs are to undergo a midlife upgrade and become C/D aircraft close to block 50 standard. The first three A/Bs are now undergoing the upgrade at Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI). In 2013-2014 all of the A/Bs will have been upgraded to C/Ds. He also says four other F-16s were sent to the U.S. for technical verification inspections so the upgrade kits could be developed that TAI will install.
While Pakistan is an ally of the U.S., it is also an ally of China. Pakistan, for example, is producing JF-17 fighters at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex in Kamra, a city in northern Pakistan. The JF-17 is a fighter jointly developed by China and Pakistan.
Rao says since becoming chief of air staff, he has made a concerted effort to increase the manufacturing capability of Pakistans defense industry. This is important because the country has in the past been subject to sanctions and embargoes, including by the U.S. over its nuclear weapons efforts.
Rao says Pakistan will have the second squadron of JF-17s enter operation at the end of March while simultaneously phasing out all of its Nanchang A-5s. The A-5 is a ground attack aircraft from China that was first produced in 1969.
As for the Chengdu F-7s and Dassault Mirages, we will phase these out as we get JF-17s, Rao says. Some of Pakistans Mirages are the oldest in the world, he says, adding that some were built in 1967. Phasing out the older Mirages is a top priority. The Mirages are difficult and costly to maintain because no one is producing spare parts for these aircraft anymore, he says. We are getting secondhand parts, but we dont know the history of these spare parts we are getting. Its a flight safety issue and a nightmare for me, he adds.
When asked about datalinks that could connect the F-16s to the JF-17s, Rao says Pakistan is working to develop its own solution. We have Link 16 on the F-16s. We will not fiddle with Link 16 and not have direct linkages [between the JF-17s] with the F-16. However, we are trying to develop our own tactical datalink. It will send information from the JF-17 to a ground station where there will be an interface, he says, adding there will be a short delay, and then the information will be sent to the F-16s.
Like with its fighters, Pakistan also has different types of airborne early warning and control aircraft. The country has three Saab Erieye aircraft and will receive its fourth by midyear, Rao says. This is its last Saab Erieye on order. Pakistan will also receive in the middle of the year its first Shaanxi ZDK-03. Pakistan has four on order, and the first rolled out of the Shaanxi Aircraft factory in November. But Rao says China is still busy installing the equipment and doing the necessary upgrades.
Another major requirement that Pakistan has is for UAVs. It already has Italian Selex Galileo Falco UAVs, and Rao says Pakistan has reached an agreement with the company whereby some Falcos will be made in Pakistan for the local market and export. Production will start in Pakistan this year, he says. In the past Pakistan reportedly wanted to have the Falco armed, a request that Italy rejected. Rao says the UAVs made in Pakistan will carry no weapons and will be for reconnaissance and surveillance, mostly of areas where insurgents and terrorists may be hiding.
Abu Zolfiqar
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meh....it's been like that since mid 60s.
Alliances dont always entail that all the civilian populations are on eachother's best friend list. If they were, then Turkiye wouldnt be an ally of the U.S. either. Anti-American sentiment is MUCHHHHHH higher there than in Pakistan.
they have something we need, and for now we have something they need. I personally wish for a more genuine partnership, but for now we chugging along and it works out. Our foreign policy is magnificent, domestic policy leaves much to be desired.
Alliances dont always entail that all the civilian populations are on eachother's best friend list. If they were, then Turkiye wouldnt be an ally of the U.S. either. Anti-American sentiment is MUCHHHHHH higher there than in Pakistan.
they have something we need, and for now we have something they need. I personally wish for a more genuine partnership, but for now we chugging along and it works out. Our foreign policy is magnificent, domestic policy leaves much to be desired.
Abu Zolfiqar
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works on both sides i guess....people get emotional, u know how it is
air marshal
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A Pakistani Air Force F-16 taxis past a Pakistan Air Force Mirage fighter jet on the runway at Pakistan Air Force Base Shahbaz near Jacobabad, Pakistan. The F-16s belongs to the new re-designated Squadron 5 and replaces the older Mirage aircraft. The Pakistan Air Force conducted a re-equipping ceremony on March 10 which was attended by Maj. Gen. Richard Shook, the Individual Mobilization Augmentee to Lt. Gen. Mike Hostage, U.S. Air Forces Central commander. (U.S. Air Force photo by Lt. Col. Michael Shavers)
DANGER-ZONE
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OOO bhai look at F-16 wing tip... SMOKE WINDERS....it must be maneuvering.
more pix AIR MARSHAL.
more pix AIR MARSHAL.
OOO bhai look at F-16 wing tip... SMOKE WINDERS....it must be maneuvering.
more pix AIR MARSHAL.
I think those are training-rounds and not smokewinders. Smokewinders are bigger in diameter. These are the trainingrounds without real IR nose and no rocket nor energy gerators on the backfins.
DANGER-ZONE
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^ perhaps i was too excited 
then it might be targeting the old mirage in Air.
then it might be targeting the old mirage in Air.
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For the Love of God, what I can't understand is why is the PAF buying more Blk 52's ?? Why can't they upgrade the existing falcons to Block60+/70 ??? The UAE air force who currently fly the most advanced version of the falcon are upgrading their birds to Block 70 (to counter the F16IN ), and we are still mucking about with Block 52!!!
IMO the PAF should just upgrade all its falcons to Block 60/70 instead of buying more Blk 52's
Secondly, with the relationship Pakistan has with the UAE, I'm 100% sure the royalty issue can be tackled tactfully.
For the Love of God, what I can't understand is why is the PAF buying more Blk 52's ?? Why can't they upgrade the existing falcons to Block60+/70 ??? The UAE air force who currently fly the most advanced version of the falcon are upgrading their birds to Block 70 (to counter the F16IN ), and we are still mucking about with Block 52!!!
IMO the PAF should just upgrade all its falcons to Block 60/70 instead of buying more Blk 52's
Secondly, with the relationship Pakistan has with the UAE, I'm 100% sure the royalty issue can be tackled tactfully.
Basic knowledge. Block 60 or further is no way comparable (even structural) with the block52. How would you do such upgrade? Try first to google and then post. But looking forward to your answer.
Indus Falcon
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With all due respect, your basic knowledge seems to be fundamentally flawed! When a Blk 15 can be upgraded to Blk 50/52, why can't you upgrade to Blk 60/70?
As to your comment on googling, here you go:
F-16E/F Block 60 F-16 Fighting Falcon variants - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Based on the F-16C/D Block 50/52, it features improved radar and avionics and conformal fuel tanks; it has only been sold to the United Arab Emirates. At one time, this version was incorrectly thought to have been designated "F-16U." A major difference from previous blocks is the Northrop Grumman AN/APG-80 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, which gives the airplane the capability to simultaneously track and destroy ground and air threats. The Block 60's General Electric F110-GE-132 engine is a development of the -129 model and is rated at 32,500 lbf (144 kN). The Electronic Warfare system is supposed to be quite advanced and includes the Northrop Grumman Falcon Edge Integrated Electronic Warfare Suite RWR together with the AN/ALQ-165 Self-Protection Jammer. Falcon Edge, which was developed by Northrop Grumman specifically for the Block 60, is capable of showing not only the bearing of any threat but also the range. The Block 60 allows the carriage of all Block 50/52-compatible weaponry as well as AIM-132 Advanced Short Range Air-to-Air Missile (ASRAAM) and the AGM-84E Standoff Land Attack Missile (SLAM). The CFTs provide an additional 450 US gallon (2,045 L) of fuel, allowing increased range or time on station. This has the added benefit of freeing up hardpoints for weapons that otherwise would have been occupied by underwing fuel tanks. The MIL-STD-1553 data bus is replaced by MIL-STD-1773 fiber-optic data bus which offers a 1000 times increase in data-handling capability. UAE funded the entire $3 billion Block 60 development costs, and in exchange will receive royalties if any of the Block 60 aircraft are sold to other nations. According to press reports quoted by Flight International, this is "the first time the US has sold a better aircraft [F-16] overseas than its own forces fly".
Like the F-35, the Block 60 F-16 has a built in FLIR/laser targeting system rather than using a pod that would increase drag and RCS.
As to built in systems like FLIR/LTS, when you do an upgrade, you can incorporate this option and others (fiber optic data bus) into it. As you can see from the below pic, that when undergoing an upgrade, the aircraft is literally stripped down to bare bones, enabling an operator to incorporate whatever upgrades necessary.
Secondly, wouldn't 40 Blk 60/70, be more formidable than 80 Blk-52+ ???
SBD-3
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With all due respect, your basic knowledge seems to be fundamentally flawed! When a Blk 15 can be upgraded to Blk 50/52, why can't you upgrade to Blk 60/70?
As to your comment on googling, here you go:
F-16E/F Block 60 F-16 Fighting Falcon variants - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Based on the F-16C/D Block 50/52, it features improved radar and avionics and conformal fuel tanks; it has only been sold to the United Arab Emirates. At one time, this version was incorrectly thought to have been designated "F-16U." A major difference from previous blocks is the Northrop Grumman AN/APG-80 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, which gives the airplane the capability to simultaneously track and destroy ground and air threats. The Block 60's General Electric F110-GE-132 engine is a development of the -129 model and is rated at 32,500 lbf (144 kN). The Electronic Warfare system is supposed to be quite advanced and includes the Northrop Grumman Falcon Edge Integrated Electronic Warfare Suite RWR together with the AN/ALQ-165 Self-Protection Jammer. Falcon Edge, which was developed by Northrop Grumman specifically for the Block 60, is capable of showing not only the bearing of any threat but also the range. The Block 60 allows the carriage of all Block 50/52-compatible weaponry as well as AIM-132 Advanced Short Range Air-to-Air Missile (ASRAAM) and the AGM-84E Standoff Land Attack Missile (SLAM). The CFTs provide an additional 450 US gallon (2,045 L) of fuel, allowing increased range or time on station. This has the added benefit of freeing up hardpoints for weapons that otherwise would have been occupied by underwing fuel tanks. The MIL-STD-1553 data bus is replaced by MIL-STD-1773 fiber-optic data bus which offers a 1000 times increase in data-handling capability. UAE funded the entire $3 billion Block 60 development costs, and in exchange will receive royalties if any of the Block 60 aircraft are sold to other nations. According to press reports quoted by Flight International, this is "the first time the US has sold a better aircraft [F-16] overseas than its own forces fly".
Like the F-35, the Block 60 F-16 has a built in FLIR/laser targeting system rather than using a pod that would increase drag and RCS.
As to built in systems like FLIR/LTS, when you do an upgrade, you can incorporate this option and others (fiber optic data bus) into it. As you can see from the below pic, that when undergoing an upgrade, the aircraft is literally stripped down to bare bones, enabling an operator to incorporate whatever upgrades necessary.
Secondly, wouldn't 40 Blk 60/70, be more formidable than 80 Blk-52+ ???
1st thing, Silk is a very informed and respected poster here. Secondly, do look for some research but from Good Sources, wikipedia is a source which can be edited by any T D and H. Here as an initial help, go to www.f-16.net. This website has tonns of both general and technical information for developing know-how about falcon and research.Thirdly, to answer why F-16s can't be upgraded to Block 60 standard.
1- Export of AESA and new engine will require not UAE, but US approval.
2- While an aircraft can be upgraded, it is still restricted by various factors e.g. airframe etc. Even PAF MLUed Falcons will be far superior in capabilities than pre MLUed Falcons, however, they will not have the identical capabilities as the brand new F-16 Bl 52 . For example, the MLUed Falcons wont be able to use CFTs.
3- There has not been any such upgrade plan done anywhere so LM would have to start a new program for PAF if PAF decided to have this and then TAI would also not have been a party since it has no experience with Bl-60 manufacturing and maintainence.
4- For housing AESA, new pods integration and new engine, Airframe redesign would have been necessary as AESA adds up significant weight to the AC. This of course, can not be done with old airframes like Block 15 (even non upgraded block 15/10 cant even carry AMRAAMs for which OCU upgrade is required). So While update package is already available for Block 52 this would not mean that an upgrade should also be available for Bl-60 Level
Hope you would have got the point
cheers
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