Pakistan demands apology over drone strike

[Musafar]

I am personally DISGUSTED by the comments of the spineless COAS. I would expect fake "condemnation" from people like Rehman-Malik who has been taking Pakistanis for fools and goes on record even denying blackwater/CIA existed in Pakistan. I bet RAYMOND DAVIS as soon as he got on the private jet must have given all the information to CIA chief PANETTA to give Pakistan a lesson. Hence the reason for so many drone attacks in such a short space of time. It's becoming indiscriminate and it is being done as a message for payback and disobedience. its shameful that PAF officers are assisting these thugs in their criminal activity.

as for COAS, this shodowy mysterious quite man of Pakistan image is nothing but a pretense. He's a drugged up chain-smoker and it has now apparent that Kiyani is the USA's man in Pakistan to get things green lighted and I no doubt believe that once he retires he will be living a life of luxury OUTSIDE of Pakistan like his many other predecessors. It's embarrassing, only last few weeks a bombing occured after ARMY abandoned a lashkar in adezai even though the pleaded for continued help.

It's a sad day to know your guardians are nothing but hired mercenaries.

Thankfully there's loads of youth in pakistan that are intelligent enough to know the truth from lies and can see through this BS.

Inshallah we will have an uprising like Egypt soon and have principled men of honour as our leaders instead of paid stooges.

 

[Musafar]

Pakistan Army, American Army, Pakistan government, American government, ISI, and CIA yeh sab shamil hai inn U.S. drone attacks mein. All these people are working together on attacking FATA with U.S. drones.


The difference between the American establishment and the Pakistani establishment is that the American establishment cant stand to hear the loss of American lives while for the Pakistani establishment loss of Pakistani lives is no big deal. 12 innocent Pakistanis killed one day by US drone atacks, 45 innocent Pakistanis killed another day by US drone attacks. No one in the Pakistani establishment makes a fuss about it. Even in Pakistan a gora life is 1000 times more valuable than a Pakistani life and we've seen that after the murderer Raymond Davis has been set free.

Kya fida tha azaadi ki liye larna Pakistanio jab goraiy keh ghulam hi rahna tha.

Excellent post - i think you just summed up this whole situation very eloquently.

 

[LeGenD]

Yes that is correct, some very powerful officials and others who are still present in the Army and intelligence agencies sympathize with the terrorists. This support is the reason why the militants have not been weakened to the state they should have been at and how they still continue to target various individuals or places of high value.

A number of those officials who have really gone after militants in FATA have either been killed in action or removed from position. In one case, an army official was clearing the areas much too quickly and somehow, I mean somehow the militants were able to 'find' his travel route and attack him while he was traveling, killing him and some of his soldiers.

This is the biggest travesty and I am perplexed by the reason that why would some of these people still support the militants, knowing full and well the kind of damage they have done.

Because these guys have nurtured Taliban and its cohorts. These guys are not willing to turn against those extremist elements because they have served their interests well, be it in Pakistan or in Afghanistan.

Because of these psycho individuals, ordinary Pak citizens continue to suffer. The same is the situation in Afghanistan.

The lack of interest in removing Taliban remnants from North Waziristan is a primary indicator of how much these individuals hold influence over the top brass levels. Unofficial argument is that India might get strong foothold in Afghanistan, and Taliban support is necessary to quell Indian ambitions over there.

What baffles me is that these 'Taliban ke takhedaar' do not care about wants or demands of ordinary Afghan citizens. To them, Pak vs India struggles in Afghanistan matter more.

How about realizing that India is trying to win hearts and minds in Afghanistan by attempting to make large investments over there?

India-Afghanistan Relations - Council on Foreign Relations

Why will not the 'suppressed people' of Afghanistan accept such generous offers and welcome the Indians?

Indians have a far better strategic vision. They are doing a much better job in serving their interests.

In the contrary, Pakistani influenctial still have faith in short-sighted policies.

When will these idiots learn? When it would be too late?

It now makes sense; the recent Drone attack is likely a sign of growing frustation in US about continuance of covert support to Taliban from certain elements within Pakistani military establishment and lack of action from Kayani to put an end to these links.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I am personally DISGUSTED by the comments of the spineless COAS. I would expect fake "condemnation" from people like Rehman-Malik who has been taking Pakistanis for fools and goes on record even denying blackwater/CIA existed in Pakistan. I bet RAYMOND DAVIS as soon as he got on the private jet must have given all the information to CIA chief PANETTA to give Pakistan a lesson. Hence the reason for so many drone attacks in such a short space of time. It's becoming indiscriminate and it is being done as a message for payback and disobedience. its shameful that PAF officers are assisting these thugs in their criminal activity.

as for COAS, this shodowy mysterious quite man of Pakistan image is nothing but a pretense. He's a drugged up chain-smoker and it has now apparent that Kiyani is the USA's man in Pakistan to get things green lighted and I no doubt believe that once he retires he will be living a life of luxury OUTSIDE of Pakistan like his many other predecessors. It's embarrassing, only last few weeks a bombing occured after ARMY abandoned a lashkar in adezai even though the pleaded for continued help.

It's a sad day to know your guardians are nothing but hired mercenaries.

Thankfully there's loads of youth in pakistan that are intelligent enough to know the truth from lies and can see through this BS.

Inshallah we will have an uprising like Egypt soon and have principled men of honour as our leaders instead of paid stooges.

Are you sure it is 'fake condemnation'?

The COAS does not usually comment on events/issues, as you pointed out. The couple of times that I can remember him issuing 'condemnations and warnings', Pakistan did in fact follow through on them and made sure the events were not repeated.

The first I can recall was a US special forces raid in Angorr Adda, in which several civilians were mistakenly killed. I believe the COAS indicated that the next time the security forces had been ordered to shoot down any choppers carrying out such raids in Pakistani territory, and I do not believe that the US has repeated such a SF raid since.

The second incident I recall was with the killing of three FC at a checkpost a few months ago, after which Pakistan shut down a major NATO supply route until it received assurances to prevent a repeat and an apology.

So far the COAS warnings and condemnations have not been 'fake' or 'empty threats' - we will have to wait and see what this particular one amounts to. Let us not be so quick to condemn without all the facts available.

 

[LeGenD]

Are you sure it is 'fake condemnation'?

The COAS does not usually comment on events/issues, as you pointed out. The couple of times that I can remember him issuing 'condemnations and warnings', Pakistan did in fact follow through on them and made sure the events were not repeated.

The first I can recall was a US special forces raid in Angorr Adda, in which several civilians were mistakenly killed. I believe the COAS indicated that the next time the security forces had been ordered to shoot down any choppers carrying out such raids in Pakistani territory, and I do not believe that the US has repeated such a SF raid since.

The second incident I recall was with the killing of three FC at a checkpost a few months ago, after which Pakistan shut down a major NATO supply route until it received assurances to prevent a repeat and an apology.

So far the COAS warnings and condemnations have not been 'fake' or 'empty threats' - we will have to wait and see what this particular one amounts to. Let us not be so quick to condemn without all the facts available.

No! They did it again in 2010:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/27/pakistan-nato-raid-afghanistan-taliban

During this raid, they killed over 50 people in Pakistan.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Yes that is correct, some very powerful officials and others who are still present in the Army and intelligence agencies sympathize with the terrorists. This support is the reason why the militants have not been weakened to the state they should have been at and how they still continue to target various individuals or places of high value.

A number of those officials who have really gone after militants in FATA have either been killed in action or removed from position. In one case, an army official was clearing the areas much too quickly and somehow, I mean somehow the militants were able to 'find' his travel route and attack him while he was traveling, killing him and some of his soldiers.

This is the biggest travesty and I am perplexed by the reason that why would some of these people still support the militants, knowing full and well the kind of damage they have done.

Your comments, and those of Astanosh and MBQ, do not match up with the events over the last year or so in Swat since the military operation. They do however match up with reports from Swat before the military operation, when the Government and the Army were still hoping for a negotiated end to the conflict, and were looking to implement the Nizam-e-Adl Regulations as a concession.

The reason the anecdotal accounts posted by the three of you make no sense and appear outdated/fabricated/speculative is that the situation on the ground in Swat would not be what it is today were your claims true post Rah-e-Raast. If your accounts were true, the situation would be like earlier, with regular suicide bombings, beheadings and intimidation of the locals in Swat. But that is not what we see, and Swat has probably seen fewer terrorist attacks than Lahore in the past several months, and there continue to be encounters in which militants are killed or captured. We would not be seeing that if 'officers with Taliban sympathies' that you describe, existed in large numbers.

The same is largely the case in most of FATA, where incidents of terrorism and intimidation by the Taliban continue, but are significantly lower than in the past. Of course the situation in FATA is also much more complex and difficult than in Swat.

One should take care that such unverified and patently false accounts are not presented as if they are representative of the broader Army or situation. Given the situation in Swat currently, even if the above accounts are not outdated/fabrications/exaggerations, they are isolated and extremely rare incidents.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

No! They did it again in 2010:

Pakistan furious over Nato cross-border Taliban raid | World news | The Guardian

During this raid, they killed over 50 people in Pakistan.

That was hot pursuit by helicopters, not a pre-planned SF raid as was the case with the Angorr Adda raid.

Slightly different situation - perhaps NATO thought it could get away with it since it was not technically 'boots on the ground'.

Nonetheless, such incidents remain isolated, and Pakistan's warnings on these occasions have hardly been 'fake'. We have made our 'red lines' evidently clear to the Yanks.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

How about realizing that India is trying to win hearts and minds in Afghanistan by attempting to make large investments over there?

India-Afghanistan Relations - Council on Foreign Relations

Why will not the 'suppressed people' of Afghanistan accept such generous offers and welcome the Indians?

So are we:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...-investment-afghanistan-hits-500-million.html

And Pakistan's reluctance to launch operations in NW has more to do with resource constraints and a lack of trust in the US claims of staying engaged in Afghanistan for the long term.

It is not so much about being infatuated with Islamic extremists as it is about ensuring we have our own proxies to attempt to take control in Afghanistan if it once more degenerates into a state of chaos and civil war after the Americans leave, as happened after the Soviet withdrawal.

Simplistic analyses of Pakistani motivations (such as they hold influence over the top brass) in NW are a disservice to understanding the broader problem and resolving it.

 

[LeGenD]

So are we:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...-investment-afghanistan-hits-500-million.html

Good move. However, many Afghans still harbor suspicions about our motives. Reason pointed out below (in red).

Our official agenda should be about winning hearts and minds in Afghanistan.

And Pakistan's reluctance to launch operations in NW has more to do with resource constraints and a lack of trust in the US claims of staying engaged in Afghanistan for the long term.

Lack of trust in US? Brother, NATO is not leaving Afghanistan till 2014.

For more details: http://www.nato.int/cps/en/SID-8AA5379A-ADA6419A/natolive/topics_69366.htm

It is not so much about being infatuated with Islamic extremists as it is about ensuring we have our own proxies to attempt to take control in Afghanistan if it once more degenerates into a state of chaos and civil war after the Americans leave, as happened after the Soviet withdrawal.

This is what many Afghans fear. This is not the right solution for Afghan problem.

You still want to bring Taliban to power in Afghanistan even after its past deeds? Remember that all kinds of arab social rejects and extremists were given sanctury in Afghanistan by Taliban. And this move led to 9/11 and the holy crusade of WESTERN powers against extremist elements in Afghanistan in response, which has also adversaly affected Pakistan (hint: spread of terrorism in Pakistan and economic crises).

God forbid! If history has to repeat itself again. Think about its ramifications for Pakistan during the next holy crusade by WESTERN powers.

Simplistic analyses of Pakistani motivations (such as they hold influence over the top brass) in NW are a disservice to understanding the broader problem and resolving it.

This applies to your proposed analysis. Not mine.

We need a more refined strategic vision for Afghanistan.

 

[Patriot]

---nevermind--Y

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Good move. However, many Afghans still harbor suspicions about our motives. Reason pointed out below (in red).

Our official agenda should be about winning hearts and minds in Afghanistan.

Right, and given Afghan treachery against Pakistan going back to 1947, what happened to the idea of reciprocation?

You are aware of what the US and Karzai are up to aren't you?

US embassy cables: Karzai admits to sheltering Baloch nationalists | World news | guardian.co.uk

Lack of trust in US? Brother, NATO is not leaving Afghanistan till 2014.

And you think the problems in Afghanistan will be resolved by 2014? Will there be continued US engagement with, and support of, Afghanistan beyond that? I fail to see why Pakistan's lack of faith in US claims and plans for Afghanistan is misplaced, especially keeping in mind history.

This is what many Afghans fear. This is not the right solution for Afghan problem.

I did not say it is a solution - it clearly is a plan B or C, if everything goes downhill in Afghanistan and the country falls back into civil war.

You still want to bring Taliban to power in Afghanistan even after its past deeds? Remember that all kinds of arab social rejects and extremists were given sanctury in Afghanistan by Taliban. And this move led to 9/11 and the holy crusade of WESTERN powers against extremist elements in Afghanistan in response, which has also adversaly affected Pakistan (hint: spread of terrorism in Pakistan and economic crises).

I don't want to bring the Taliban back to power, but is a civil war and chaos along the lines of the Soviet Withdrawal not worse? What would you suggest we do in that case, since Pakistan will feel the effects of a civil war in Afghanistan.

This applies to your proposed analysis. Not mine.

We need a more refined strategic vision for Afghanistan.

Pakistan's investment in Afghanistan, the courting of the Northern ethnic groups, engagement with Karzai and the US to come to a negotiated end to the conflict, all point to a more 'refined strategic vision' than simple 'return the Taliban to power'. I do believe the COAS and other military and strategic commentators have outlined the PA's 'vision' for resolving the problem in Afghanistan, and it certainly is not a repeat of the past.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Same collateral damage has occurred before, only God knows what mechanism they have had in place before to addresses such issues; which suddenly Pakistan has refused to accept. I owe an apology but i am not able to find distinction between civilian casualty before and this particular one. Are these areas fully under control of GoP now?

the gathering was in great number, in open air by the tribal elders openly against the Taliban. the gathering was relating to a land dispute between two tribes, it was a local jirga long used to resolve old disputes long before this whole concept of war on terror. the dead include tribal volunteers or local militia that is raised against Taliban and the local Khasadars (tribal police) that works under the government political agent.

The militants don’t hold meetings in large numbers out in the open. These poor people and the police didn’t make a run for it after hearing the drones and never suspected that these flying machines which were supposed to be on their side will suddenly open fire on them. Maybe they didn’t know that for the trigger happy cowboys they didn’t seem any different from the Taliban. The same cowboys who can confuse journalists with cameras as insurgents with rocket launchers and would kill them are only repeating their habit of total disregard for life in the places they get to use their war toys.

 

[LeGenD]

Right, and given Afghan treachery against Pakistan going back to 1947, what happened to the idea of reciprocation?

Did Afghanistan invaded Pakistan in the PAST? Did it took advantage of our vulnerable moments during our wars with India?

I know that the case of Durand Line is complicated. However, why Durand Line has not been fenced since independence?

Forget about Afghan Pakhtoons for a moment. Do Pakistani pakhtoons have problem with this fencing of Durand Line?

Border disputes do not justify our support for extremist elements in Afghanistan.

India and China have border disputes too. These states do not try to overrun each other by using extremist proxies over these matters.

You are aware of what the US and Karzai are up to aren't you?

US embassy cables: Karzai admits to sheltering Baloch nationalists | World news | guardian.co.uk

My point is that supporting Taliban has done us no good either. Taliban gave sanctury to arab terrorists, which led to US invasion and vice versa.

Had Taliban handed over OBL and his goons to US, this mess would not have happened. Pakistani authorities also requested Taliban leadership to hand over OBL to US, but Taliban leadership showed a middle finger in response.

And you are contended with supporting these kinds of proxies which do not listen to even our demands?

Mullah Zaeef: "We are not against India. There are people who encourage India to do something against Pakistan in Afghanistan, and in the same way, there are people who encourage Pakistan to do something against India. They share a long border. If India and Pakistan have problems, they should sort it out there."

Q: "You called ISI [i.e. the Inter-Services Intelligence of the Pakistan military] a global evil. You seem to be angry with Pakistan."

Mullah Zaeef: "The ISI would say one thing to the Americans and the opposite to the Taliban. When the U.S. wanted the Taliban to hand Osama [bin Laden] over to them [after 9/11], Pakistan emboldened the Taliban by assuring that Pakistan would stand by the Taliban under any circumstances. Even today Pakistan's policy is not good for Afghans. The ISI should not have done anything wrong here. But, unfortunately, they are still doing a lot of wrong things. They arrested Afghan people and sold them to the Americans…"

Check this interview: MEMRI Mobile - - Former Taliban Ambassador to Pakistan Mullah Abdul Salam Zaeef

These are the views of a prominent Taliban figure. Get the picture?

Regarding Karzai: Pakistan needs to send a strong message to this clown that if he would shelter balochi terrorists, he would face severe consequences.

And you think the problems in Afghanistan will be resolved by 2014? Will there be continued US engagement with, and support of, Afghanistan beyond that? I fail to see why Pakistan's lack of faith in US claims and plans for Afghanistan is misplaced, especially keeping in mind history.

Did you checked the link provided by me?

ISAF objectives

NATO-ISAF, as part of the overall International Community effort, and as mandated by the United Nations Security Council, is working with Afghanistan to create the conditions whereby the Government of Afghanistan is able to exercise its authority throughout Afghanistan.

Transition

Transition – Inteqal in dari and pashtu - is the process by which responsibility for Afghanistan will be gradually handed over to the Afghan leadership 1.

At the London Conference in January 2010, the Afghan Government and the International Community pledged to the development of a plan for transition, which they later endorsed at the follow-up Kabul Conference in July 2010.

Implementation of this plan is scheduled to start in the spring of 2011 and it is expected that, by the end of 2014, the Afghan authorities will have taken the lead throughout the country. As Afghan leadership expands, NATO-ISAF’s presence in Afghanistan will evolve progressively from a mentoring to an enabling and sustaining role, beyond 2014, until that time whereby the Afghan leadership is capable of taking full responsibility for its country.

I did not say it is a solution - it clearly is a plan B or C, if everything goes downhill in Afghanistan and the country falls back into civil war.
I don't want to bring the Taliban back to power, but is a civil war and chaos along the lines of the Soviet Withdrawal not worse? What would you suggest we do in that case, since Pakistan will feel the effects of a civil war in Afghanistan.

So we have not learned our lesson yet?

Once again, supporting anti-NATO Taliban is not the solution to our problem. This strategy has already backfired upon us.

Do you think that WORLD will be silent spectator to our role in bringing back Taliban to power once again, regardless of any reason? Their will be serious ramifications for us.

Pakistan needs to actively engage US and Afghan government to chalk out an appropriate solution for Afghan problem which is acceptable to all sides.

Pakistan's investment in Afghanistan, the courting of the Northern ethnic groups, engagement with Karzai and the US to come to a negotiated end to the conflict, all point to a more 'refined strategic vision' than simple 'return the Taliban to power'. I do believe the COAS and other military and strategic commentators have outlined the PA's 'vision' for resolving the problem in Afghanistan, and it certainly is not a repeat of the past.

Yes! This is the right path.

However, we need to do something about Haqani Network as well.

As long as we will keep these kinds of proxies, tensions will continue to increase between US, Afghan government, and Pakistan.

If we feel justified in taking action against extremist groups (TTP and its cohorts) challenging us; The ISAF feels justified in taking action against extremist groups (Haqani and Co.) challenging its mission.

 

[Gin ka Pakistan]

Pakistan Army, American Army, Pakistan government, American government, ISI, and CIA yeh sab shamil hai inn U.S. drone attacks mein. All these people are working together on attacking FATA with U.S. drones.


The difference between the American establishment and the Pakistani establishment is that the American establishment cant stand to hear the loss of American lives while for the Pakistani establishment loss of Pakistani lives is no big deal. 12 innocent Pakistanis killed one day by US drone atacks, 45 innocent Pakistanis killed another day by US drone attacks. No one in the Pakistani establishment makes a fuss about it. Even in Pakistan a gora life is 1000 times more valuable than a Pakistani life and we've seen that after the murderer Raymond Davis has been set free.

Kya fida tha azaadi ki liye larna Pakistanio jab goraiy keh ghulam hi rahna tha.

Very well said what the use of freedom when people are made to think for value of their life with extreme inflation (already killing them) make Pakistan another state of US or slave nation at least all the nation will benefit not just few hundred by serving their masters.

Pakistan has extremists in power like extreme corrupt people and the other extremism Pakistani are facing is extreme inflation

 

[MyPakistan1947]

Whether Pakistani Government is supporting the Taliban in Afghanistan or not. Fact still remians, majority of the Taliban are Afghani Pashtuns who are natives of Afghanistan, not Pakistanis, Punjabis, or any other foreigners. Even If Pakistani Government is supporting Talibs, the Taliban are chosing to take help from Pakistani Government themselves.