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Pakistan defiant on Iran gas pipeline

Why take this thread off topic? We can discuss that point elsewhere if you wish to do so.

Not that i meant to take the thread off topic, I just got curious.

And this may not be so much un-linked to the IP pipeline project.

Our relations with US, outlined in the review document, will have a strong interference with how this project goes. And the people in charge of all this, must have considered that as well.
 
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Ok Cheng lets wait and see lol

After Abu, you said it too! :D

(Could it be that I was right all along in advocating patience? ;) )

Not that i meant to take the thread off topic, I just got curious.

And this may not be so much un-linked to the IP pipeline project.

Our relations with US, outlined in the review document, will have a strong interference with how this project goes. And the people in charge of all this, must have considered that as well.

The review document as finalized by the PCNS is no more worthy than the paper it is written on, and backed by equally valueless words from totally worthless people in the parliament.
 
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Even though I have already posted this several times before. Let us look at our mineral potential again.

Sandak Copper discovered in 1974. Production started in 2004. Life of the mine is about 20 years

Thar Coal discovered in 1991- UCG trial run successful in 2012. No further development

Riko diq Copper/Gold – company formed in 2003. No development work yet started

Duddar Lead-Zinc. Company formed in 2004. Understand production started in in 2011

Shale/Frac gas. ????

It took 30 years to start Copper production from Sandak. Thar has not yet produced coal after 20 years. Duddar Zinc/Lead mine took 7 years. Riko diq has nothing to show after 8 years.

A lot of Pakistanis consider US our main enemy. Some posters in the forum even contemplate a nuke war with the US! Law & order situation is so bad that even Pakistani origin people are getting kidnapped for ransom.

Assuming despite all of this, US companies agree to invest in Pakistan and provide the horizontal drilling and advance technology essential for releasing gas trapped in the rock; it would take at least 10 years before we see any results from Shale/Frac gas.

Iran gas pipeline can be ready in a couple of years. However since Saudi’s have joined the US in the anti - IP lobby; in my honest opinion Iran/Pakistan gas pipeline will not be built.

We need gas now or as soon as possible. Understand Pakistan’s’ first LNG project at Port Qassim will materialize within next 12 months. We can add another larger unit which can be ready in a couple of years. It appears that LNG is the only practical way forward at this point in time.

Shale/Frac gas is certainly a viable resource. In about 10 years or may be more, Yes. But as a solution to our current gas/energy shortage? No.
 
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Let's see:

1.The IP pipeline has reportedly reached Iran's border,

Any confirmation of said reports? Photographs may be?

2 Pakistan has completed the survey for construction of pipeline on its side.

Surveys mean what? How long ago were surveys for Kalabagh and many other projects completed?

3. Iran has agreed to provide US$250 million to help Pakistan build its end of a gas pipeline

Has it actually paid any money? Has Pakistan accepted any?

4. Under a sovereign-guarantee agreement related to the Iran pipeline project, Pakistan is bound to start gas flows in 2014 or face a penalty the equivalent of $8 million per day.

Pakistani sovereign guarantees? Just like those for the IPPs? Not very robust, those.

5. Gazprom agreed to fund it provided it did not go to open bid. Which Pakistanis are reluctant but if push comes to shove they will go for

You mean "push comes to shove" has not come yet? Isn't it more like slapped around already?

6. Last year, Pakistan awarded a $55 million consultancy services contract for IP pipeline to German firm ILF Engineering Services, which is working in collaboration with the National Engineering Services of Pakistan.

I am sure that contract served up nice commissions all around and will not amount to much.
 
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A lot of Pakistanis consider US our main enemy. Some posters in the forum even contemplate a nuke war with the US! Law & order situation is so bad that even Pakistani origin people are getting kidnapped for ransom.

No Sir. Actions speak louder than words it is America who acts as we are its enemy. Our interests and American interests do not converge. It is simple as that,

Americans have always been superficial friends to us. Its just that the feudals and those that live by corrupt means in our country choose to have access to their London or American residences, who want health care from western countries who want to send their children to Oxford etc that have kept turning to the west after every debacle. I can show you decades of duplicity by Americans and west to Pakistan if you wish
 
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Even though I have already posted this several times before. Let us look at our mineral potential again.

Sandak Copper discovered in 1974. Production started in 2004. Life of the mine is about 20 years

Thar Coal discovered in 1991- UCG trial run successful in 2012. No further development

Riko diq Copper/Gold – company formed in 2003. No development work yet started

Duddar Lead-Zinc. Company formed in 2004. Understand production started in in 2011

Shale/Frac gas. ????

It took 30 years to start Copper production from Sandak. Thar has not yet produced coal after 20 years. Duddar Zinc/Lead mine took 7 years. Riko diq has nothing to show after 8 years.

A lot of Pakistanis consider US our main enemy. Some posters in the forum even contemplate a nuke war with the US! Law & order situation is so bad that even Pakistani origin people are getting kidnapped for ransom.

Assuming despite all of this, US companies agree to invest in Pakistan and provide the horizontal drilling and advance technology essential for releasing gas trapped in the rock; it would take at least 10 years before we see any results from Shale/Frac gas.

Iran gas pipeline can be ready in a couple of years. However since Saudi’s have joined the US in the anti - IP lobby; in my honest opinion Iran/Pakistan gas pipeline will not be built.

We need gas now or as soon as possible. Understand Pakistan’s’ first LNG project at Port Qassim will materialize within next 12 months. We can add another larger unit which can be ready in a couple of years. It appears that LNG is the only practical way forward at this point in time.

Shale/Frac gas is certainly a viable resource. In about 10 years or may be more, Yes. But as a solution to our current gas/energy shortage? No.

You make good points. The bottom line is that large energy shortages will continue to blight the Pakistani economy and the lives of Pakistanis for the foreseeable future.
 
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there are some on this forum like you cheng and this Niaz who are too much in awe with America. I am in awe only of Allah. I am going to bed in the next 10 minutes so I will address your and his points in detail in the next day or so take care mate
 
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there are some on this forum like you cheng and this Niaz who are too much in awe with America. I am in awe only of Allah. I am going to bed in the next 10 minutes so I will address your and his points in detail in the next day or so take care mate

InshAllah!
 
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Man what do you mean defy we are a sovrn nation that will do what is in our interest. Stop bending will you stand up. If Saudis were genuine they and Americans would not attach strings fine. Have you forgotten the cost of working with Americans that army captain that was murdered and left a 2 year old daughter made an orphan by Americans along with 24 other soldiers our martyred. You have no self respect. You make me ashamed to be from the same nation as you. I do not believe you are Pakistani



Ok Cheng lets wait and see lol

So you think the Chinese don't care about their sovereignty when they pulled out of the IP project under threat of US sanctions? Do you think it's relinquishing sovereignty to make calculations based on every nation's best interest?
 
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Iran's dangerous trade game

Over the past two decades, imposition of sanctions on Iran has evolved into a dynamic game between Tehran and the international community, with every new round provoking a series of Iranian counter-measures. One of Tehran's weapons in this tussle has been to use its trade policy as a way of discouraging some countries from co-operating with sanctions or aligning themselves too closely with the anti-Iran camp.

A highly visible example has been Iran's trade relations with the six Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) states – Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and United Arab Emirates. Iran has deliberately expanded its trade and investment ties so as to increase the economic costs for them of joining western-sponsored sanctions initiatives. Since 2000, for instance, GCC exports to Iran have increased dramatically, reaching $13.4bn in 2008-09, and thus the GCC states, particularly the UAE, have enjoyed a sizeable trade surplus with respect to Iran.

Simultaneously, Tehran has used trade to discourage the GCC states from forming a united anti-Iranian front headed by Saudi Arabia. This is why it has called for the joint development of its shared gas fields with Kuwait and Qatar but not the Saudis, preferred to trade in UAE dirhams but not other GCC currencies, insisted on regional security arrangements, championed the cause of Shia Muslims in Bahrain and Saudi Arabia, maintained friendly relations with Oman where the vast majority of the population resent the Wahhabi/Saudi version of Islam, and given the Qatar Airways the right to operate its domestic flights.

Yet recent reports that Iran has blocked imports from the UAE "as a punitive measure" in response to its support for the US sanctions indicate that Iran's economic co-option strategy has failed. They also point to the catastrophic failure of Tehran's efforts to keep GCC states divided since the UAE is now fully aligned with Saudi policy towards Iran.

In the past, the UAE was often lukewarm towards international sanctions, as well as any military strike against Iran's nuclear installations, and this was mainly due to economic benefits that accrue to the emirate of Dubai from its extensive trade and investment relations with Iran. Disagreements between the ruling families of Dubai and Abu Dhabi with regard to Iran were another factor behind the UAE's refusal to co-operate with unilateral US sanctions. Under immense pressure from the US and concerned about Iran's offensive capabilities, its threat to close the Strait of Hormuz, perceived Iranian meddling in the GCC affairs and the apparent progress of Iran's nuclear programme, the UAE has, however, shown a greater willingness to follow the Saudi lead and support US sanctions since 2010.

Emirates 24/7 reports that "most banks in the UAE have stopped money transfers to Iran since January 2010", while "transactions by Iranian citizens are closely monitored and usually blocked". In addition, the UAE played an important role in persuading China to apply effective sanctions against Iran. As a member of the Rome Club it is also taking an active part in discussions on how to maintain stability in the global energy markets in the event of a formal embargo on Iran's oil exports and its central bank.

This recent shift in the UAE's attitude is also a result of the diminishing economic and financial power of Dubai within the UAE federal framework. Dubai's economic collapse in 2009 reduced its political power and increased that of the Abu Dhabi ruling family, which is less friendly towards Iran.

So, what is Iran's objective in blocking trade with the UAE? Since its economic incentives have failed to keep the GCC states divided and neutral, it may now be seeking the same objective by different means: threats and intimidation.

This is evident in the Iranian officials' use of inflammatory terms with regard to the shared gas fields. On 22 December, for instance, Emad Hosseini, spokesman for the Iranian parliament's energy committee, accused Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Kuwait of stealing oil and gas from fields that cross into Iranian territory.

Blocking imports from the UAE should also be seen within this context. In spite of massive improvements since 2009, Dubai still faces debt maturities of more than $10bn next year and may need to borrow more from Abu Dhabi. Aware of this, Tehran could be hoping that its move will cause internal tensions between Abu Dhabi and Dubai by depriving Dubai of an important source of income, thereby forcing the federal government to forgo some of its newly employed anti-Iranian measures.

Whether Iran's latest action will bear fruit or not is hard to tell. What is clear, though, is that sanctions are hurting the Iranian regime and that as a result its behaviour might become less predictable in the near future.

© 2012 Guardian News and Media Limited or its affiliated companies. All rights reserved.

quickly skimmed through the article......are the GCC countries (like KSA) not "playing games" when they go to other countries (developing countries especially) making the case that they should cut energy imports from Iran which would be made up by GCC exports at "concessionary" rates

is it not a game to tell America "dont worry; we'll set aside our qualms over pricing and will boost our production (at any level you demand) to cover/offset any decreasing aggregate supply in the world market subsequent to further sanctioning evil Iranians to the teeth"


for people of principle and people of their WORD and people who believe in righteoussness - MORAL always comes before MATERIAL.


it ought to.



Iran is a Muslim country, Iran is our neighbour. Iran poses no threat to our national security (despite some issues regarding some sectarian groups they may be supporting, like the Saudis/GCC countries).....Iran has never attacked Pakistan nor has it engaged in any activity that undermined our Federation.

Pakistan has a duty to abide by its international obligations and international law. We should make the case that while we agree to these terms and have always abided by them, COMMENTING; THREATENING or BRIBING/CAJOLING Pakistan to drop the project will not only be rejected - it will be counter-productive.

Do not approach Pakistan with ridiculous demands and don't tell us with whom we will pursue commercial ties and business ventures.


simply put --> Pakistan will go ahead with the project. You go have a intercourse with yourselves until you either run short of breath, or until all bodily fluids have been excreted.
 
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Do not approach Pakistan with ridiculous demands and don't tell us with whom we will pursue commercial ties and business ventures.


simply put --> Pakistan will go ahead with the project. Go have a intercourse yourselves until you either run short of breath, or until all bodily fluids have been excreted.

Actually, to be truthful, false bravado aside, Pakistan simply does not have the spine to follow through with what you have said above, crass and crude as it is.
 
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You make good points. The bottom line is that large energy shortages will continue to blight the Pakistani economy and the lives of Pakistanis for the foreseeable future.

it's unfortunate, Cheng, that a country like the USA - a country built on free-enterprise free capital principles - a country that has always been in favour of regional cooperation and regional integration (excluding the "evil Cubans of course") -- is now at the point where they mix politics with BUSINESS

the reason why the US is seeing its downfall is partly because it is reneging on these core principles......the U.S. Constitution takes precedence over ALL else in the country and its unfortunate that "national security" issue has caused a mass trampling over this "sacred" document called the US Constitution

suffice to say - the Americans offered a civilian nuclear deal to our arch-rival neighbour (a non signatory of the NPT) and here they are telling us we shouldnt do trade with Iran - a NEIGBHOUR country that has the ability to at least in the short-medium term (i.e. 5-10 years) provide us with the ability to cover our gas supply shortfalls. A similar deal on civilian nuclear tech proposed by the Chinese was balked at and caused mumble-jumble in American circles.


this is utter arrogance....it's hypocrisy. And any Pakistani with a ball-sack and some dignity would realize that.

America is most certainly not our enemy. Some of their actions were worse actions than what enemies do; but they aren't our enemy. But they most certainly don't care two damns about our national interests or concerns on such issues. So why should Pakistan care - pray tell


























Laissez-Faire Applies!!!!!
 
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this is utter arrogance....it's hypocrisy.

Unfortunately, it is also reality.

And any Pakistani with a ball-sack and some dignity would realize that.

Yes, but again unfortunately, NONE of Pakistanis so endowed or blessed are in leadership positions at the moment, and won't be for the foreseeable future.

.................So why should Pakistan care - pray tell

Let us reverse your proposition: Why should USA care?
 
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it's unfortunate, Cheng, that a country like the USA - a country built on free-enterprise free capital principles - a country that has always been in favour of regional cooperation and regional integration (excluding the "evil Cubans of course") -- is now at the point where they mix politics with BUSINESS

the reason why the US is seeing its downfall is partly because it is reneging on these core principles......the U.S. Constitution takes precedence over ALL else in the country and its unfortunate that "national security" issue has caused a mass trampling over this "sacred" document called the US Constitution

suffice to say - the Americans offered a civilian nuclear deal to our arch-rival neighbour (a non signatory of the NPT) and here they are telling us we shouldnt do trade with Iran - a NEIGBHOUR country that has the ability to at least in the short-medium term (i.e. 5-10 years) provide us with the ability to cover our gas supply shortfalls. A similar deal on civilian nuclear tech proposed by the Chinese was balked at and caused mumble-jumble in American circles.


this is utter arrogance....it's hypocrisy. And any Pakistani with a ball-sack and some dignity would realize that.

America is most certainly not our enemy. Some of their actions were worse actions than what enemies do; but they aren't our enemy. But they most certainly don't care two damns about our national interests or concerns on such issues. So why should Pakistan care - pray tell

Laissez-Faire Applies!!!!!

All you said is well, but if all countries like Pakistan, Iran and others start to go their own ways and start trading freely in a truly free global market and without US supervision, how long do you think the western hegemony over the planet earth would last? The problem is deeper what seems on the surface. If the whole village start producing and trading with themselves the need for the Chudhary comes to an end abruptly. US just wants to keep its powers over the village intact and that is why this problem we see today. But the good news is Pakistan and Iran are not two little banana republics who can be pushed around so expect indirect actions in future:

p10-02.jpg
 
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