Pakistan Considering HQ-9B to Enhance Air Defence Capability

[Pindi Boy]

HQ-9B
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HHQ-9B
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How many batteries does China have currently in service

 

[FuturePAF]

Before procuring any new SAM system, the PAF needs to do a lessons learned from the experience with the Indian Mirages, Su-30MKI, and even their lower tier aircraft. A Radar like Giraffe 4A with GaN elements will stand up more jammers but a holistic approach on what other EW systems will allow the SAM system to stay safe while it tries to scan the skies for enemy forces.

Further more the missiles have to be off different categorizes, so that higher tier missiles are not used on simple not very maneuverable drones. Looking at the new S-350 missiles can lead the way into developing missiles with mid body thrust vents for increased terminal success.

One launcher could carry a mix of 4 upper tier (150-200 km missiles) and 8-16 HQ-16A missiles. This would help distribute missiles in just the right place to follow up longer range missile shots with shorter range missile shots if the target comes closer but isn't neutralized by the long range missiles.

These SAM Sites will need protection from enemy PGMs, as we saw with India's use of the Spice bombs. A Chinese equivalent to the new pantsir system with radar and EO/IR guidance will allow the upper and medium tier missiles to deal with the launch platforms.

https://www.armyrecognition.com/ima...system_Russia_Russian_amy_details_925_001.jpg
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Pakistan should also ask the Chinese to see if they would be willing to build at least one OTH radar site for wide area tracking of Western Indian Air Space. Using their new Quantum chips and putting the information through a supercomputer could help narrow down where Pakistani radars will have to search, if the processed Chinese OTH data is relayed to Pakistani C4ISR nodes and the SAM Sites.

While Pakistan is at building up its Integrated air defense system, the Navy should partner with the air force to build shore based local over the horizon radars on top of near by mountain ranges. Not only will it scan the skies for enemy planes, but with advanced quantum chips, EW, and signal processing through super computers, they should be able to detect stealthy cruise missiles, Stealth surface vessels, and other large formations very far out at sea. Pakistan would be able to keep an eye its EEZ from shore, and only deploy just the right amount of assets to show a presence and follow up on suspicious targets detected, like submarine masts.

An underwater Sosus like system would also allow a different form of data to be run through the super computers to refine if the unknown surface or sub-surface targets are civil or military, and if they are friendly or hostile.

 

[YeBeWarned]

Pakistan needs to develop this eco-system to control the aerial combat (at least above its own ground).

https://twitter.com/x/status/1104185603506270208

The fighter used in video is JF 17

 

[wulff]

Aster family and CAM are available from UK and Italy (Aster) so no issue of France and Aster-30 Block 1NT is very capable system.

https://www.mbda-systems.com/product/camm-er/

https://www.mbda-systems.com/product/aster-30-sampt/

Aster is from Eurosam which is a joint venture between Italy and France (thales). Do you seriously think France does not decide who this system will be exported to?

CAMM 1 is 25km ranged, and CAMM 2 is a 50km ranged derivative of the british ASRAAM air to air missile. It is not a system that can compete with S-350, HQ-9 or Aster 30 type systems. Pakistan already has the (much inferior, but still) Spada and HQ-16 systems in this class of SAM.

 

[wulff]

As i Stated, cheetah and Mongoose 3 should be deployed together along LOC and near high value targets lije bases and airports. Together they form a S. African play off of the Iron Dome C-RAM system. Then add in LOMADs SPADA-2000 and HQ-9B and you have a reasonably thorough Air/Missile defense system.

This is a great system. And Denel can help Pakistan in developing domestic SAMs. However, the Cheetah/Mongoose are a CIWS. They compete with the Russian Pantsir and Chinese FK-1000 and cannot provide area air defence and dont really do much against the serious aerial threat to Pakistan's airspace.

Another way to look at this is that systems like the Mongoose are like the Phalanx & RAM on american warships. Do these ships rely on Phalanx and RAM for air defense? Absolutely not. They have long range missiles like SM-6 and medium range missiles like ESSM for this purpose. The Phalanx/RAM combination is a last ditch defense against any stragglers: the occasional missile/PGM that manages to pass through the long range/medium range air defence layers and needs to be shot down up close.

Systems like the cheetah (iron dome, etc) are mostly used as propaganda tools by Israel saying they can intercept artillery shells and rockets and protect vital installations from shelling. But the reality is that using them in such a role is too cost prohibitive and unlikely to ever find wide use even if the technology is matured. Guided Air Defence Guns and naval CIWS guns are quite cost effective and may actually be more suited for this role.

So, to sum up my point, the great urgency for Pakistan is acquiring area air defence systems: medium and long range air defence systems that can shoot out to 100-120km and 200-300km ranges.

Long range systems capable of hitting out to 200-300km range or more would include the following:

1. HQ-9B (china)
2. S-300 (russia)
3. S-400 (russia)

Then you can have medium range (100-120) km area air defence systems:

1. S-350 (russia)
2. Siper (turkey, in development)
3. Turkish-Eurosam Aster Derivative (in development)

Once these are in place, a high-capacity, highly maneuvrable short-medium range air defence system (40-60km) can then form the inner layer of air defence to protect the area air defence batteries from enemy anti radar missiles and guided air-to-ground munitions. It will also be useful the army for battlefield air defence its armored formations. This includes systems like:

1. FM-3000 (china)
2. HQ-16 (china)
3. DK-10 (china, surface launched version of SD-10)
4. Tor/Buk (russia)
5. CAMM (uk)
6. Hisar- A/O/U (turkey, in development)

After this, you can have the CIWS systems that have range of 5-10km, and are meant to shoot down enemy precision guided munitions, cruise missiles, air to surface missiles, etc that are about to hit an important target. These include:

1. FK-1000 (china)
2. Cheetah (south africa)
3. Pantsir (russia)

An air defence system will need all four classes of systems, as this makes extremely dangerous for an enemy airforce to operate over your airspace. They will think of crossing over with anything that is not stealthy.

 

[wulff]

Integrating air defence especially high altitude with Air Force is a very difficult and expensive job

Those resources should be put into Blcok 3 and J31

We are good at air to air

Always have been

Actually, the costs of operating fighter aircraft are far, far higher than the cost of operating long range SAMs. Also, modern aircraft are far more expensive than SAM systems. The phrase "worth their weight in gold" comes to mind.

Why do you think Pakistan prefers single engined planes over twin engined planes, even when the latter are well known to be safer to fly and less prone to crashes in the event of an engine failure? Even when it is common knowledge that twin engined aircraft are superior at air to air as well as air to ground? (see cf. F-15 vs F-16 in air-to-air, Eurofighter vs Gripen in air-to-air, Rafale vs Gripen in air-to-ground)

 

[CHI RULES]

Does China operate it? They use S400 I read somewhere.

China has already deployed them.

 

[Basel]

Aster is from Eurosam which is a joint venture between Italy and France (thales). Do you seriously think France does not decide who this system will be exported to?

CAMM 1 is 25km ranged, and CAMM 2 is a 50km ranged derivative of the british ASRAAM air to air missile. It is not a system that can compete with S-350, HQ-9 or Aster 30 type systems. Pakistan already has the (much inferior, but still) Spada and HQ-16 systems in this class of SAM.

Both systems are offered since Raheel Shareef time and France had no issue in selling them also Russian export system are not that good as their counter parts from US or EU.

 

[FuturePAF]

Both systems are offered since Raheel Shareef time and France had no issue in selling them also Russian export system are not that good as their counter parts from US or EU.

France seems to have burned Pakistan one to many times for the military to procure from them anymore. (slow integration of radar and avionics in to the rose mirages, etc.) besides, anything France makes, the Chinese can match, if not do better. Rafale versus J-20 would be the best example. If China modified one the smaller S-400 missiles it already owns and operates into the S-350 style missile with the thrust actuators/vents towards the front of the missile, then China could offer its own missile. For the upper upper tier, China could offer the HQ-19; also known as the Chinese THAAD; the same concept on a larger missile. Pakistan just needs to outline the mission requirement, if there aren't already, the Chinese can quickly develop and field any system along the full spectrum of air defense and electronic warfare Pakistan needs. No longer does Pakistan needs to go to the Europeans.

https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/hq-19-sc-19-chinese-thaad.t6756/page-2

 

[Tank131]

This is a great system. And Denel can help Pakistan in developing domestic SAMs. However, the Cheetah/Mongoose are a CIWS. They compete with the Russian Pantsir and Chinese FK-1000 and cannot provide area air defence and dont really do much against the serious aerial threat to Pakistan's airspace.

Another way to look at this is that systems like the Mongoose are like the Phalanx & RAM on american warships. Do these ships rely on Phalanx and RAM for air defense? Absolutely not. They have long range missiles like SM-6 and medium range missiles like ESSM for this purpose. The Phalanx/RAM combination is a last ditch defense against any stragglers: the occasional missile/PGM that manages to pass through the long range/medium range air defence layers and needs to be shot down up close.

Systems like the cheetah (iron dome, etc) are mostly used as propaganda tools by Israel saying they can intercept artillery shells and rockets and protect vital installations from shelling. But the reality is that using them in such a role is too cost prohibitive and unlikely to ever find wide use even if the technology is matured. Guided Air Defence Guns and naval CIWS guns are quite cost effective and may actually be more suited for this role.

So, to sum up my point, the great urgency for Pakistan is acquiring area air defence systems: medium and long range air defence systems that can shoot out to 100-120km and 200-300km ranges.

Long range systems capable of hitting out to 200-300km range or more would include the following:

1. HQ-9B (china)
2. S-300 (russia)
3. S-400 (russia)

Then you can have medium range (100-120) km area air defence systems:

1. S-350 (russia)
2. Siper (turkey, in development)
3. Turkish-Eurosam Aster Derivative (in development)

Once these are in place, a high-capacity, highly maneuvrable short-medium range air defence system (40-60km) can then form the inner layer of air defence to protect the area air defence batteries from enemy anti radar missiles and guided air-to-ground munitions. It will also be useful the army for battlefield air defence its armored formations. This includes systems like:

1. FM-3000 (china)
2. HQ-16 (china)
3. DK-10 (china, surface launched version of SD-10)
4. Tor/Buk (russia)
5. CAMM (uk)
6. Hisar- A/O/U (turkey, in development)

After this, you can have the CIWS systems that have range of 5-10km, and are meant to shoot down enemy precision guided munitions, cruise missiles, air to surface missiles, etc that are about to hit an important target. These include:

1. FK-1000 (china)
2. Cheetah (south africa)
3. Pantsir (russia)

An air defence system will need all four classes of systems, as this makes extremely dangerous for an enemy airforce to operate over your airspace. They will think of crossing over with anything that is not stealthy.

Bro i know what they are. That is why I said they would make a C-RAM component along the LOC where daily artillery and mortar strikes from India leave people at risk. The fact is they are not just propaganda tools. Iron Dome for example works reasonably well as evidence by its success in shooting down numerous Katyusha style rockets that are used by the Palestinians and has shot down over 5000 projectiles/rockets. It is said to have a 90% success rate. Frankly even if the Cheetah/Mongoose 3 have a 80% success rate, it is worth it for Pakistan. They would be PART of a comprehensive network which should include HQ-9B/C and LOMADS/LY-80 and Spada 2000.

 

[Basel]

France seems to have burned Pakistan one to many times for the military to procure from them anymore. (slow integration of radar and avionics in to the rose mirages, etc.) besides, anything France makes, the Chinese can match, if not do better. Rafale versus J-20 would be the best example. If China modified one the smaller S-400 missiles it already owns and operates into the S-350 style missile with the thrust actuators/vents towards the front of the missile, then China could offer its own missile. For the upper upper tier, China could offer the HQ-19; also known as the Chinese THAAD; the same concept on a larger missile. Pakistan just needs to outline the mission requirement, if there aren't already, the Chinese can quickly develop and field any system along the full spectrum of air defense and electronic warfare Pakistan needs. No longer does Pakistan needs to go to the Europeans.

https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/hq-19-sc-19-chinese-thaad.t6756/page-2

Pakistan need something like Iron dome and Buk-M3 at least.

 

[wulff]

The success rate of Iron dome is neither anywhere near 90% nor would it be cost effective against unguided rocket fire (or artillery fire, in the case of Pakistan). It proved to be a big failure when the last time (2017 or 18) they started targeting Israel.

Israel has an interest in creating and maintaining a myth of its invincibility against the weapons fired at it from Gaza and Lebanon. They believe that if Hamas/Hezbollah believe their rockets are not able to cause any damage, the motivation for such attacks decreases significantly and they will not make additional effort to stockpile more of these rockets.

The fact still remains that firing a hi tech, guided missile to shoot down an unguided rocket or an artillery shell is a tremendously expensive method of defense against such weapons. The economies of scale dont make this sustainable for any country. Phalanx/Goalkeeper type naval CIWS adapted to land use is just as effective and a lot more cheaeper.

 

[Sunny4pak]

FD-2000 Pakistan's Possible Acquisition.

 

[Fawadqasim1]

We should start developing our own air defence system with turkey and south Africa. After buying these four systems from China.

 

[khanasifm]

One regiment with three batteries and three batteries can cover north south and central strategic areas

So one covering isb all the way covering kamra and part of kashmir

Similarly one covering Karachi complex one sargodga or Lahore etc

Mostly in anti ballistic missile defense role

S-400 regiment is about 1-1.5 billion this should be far less cheaper but also in play can me MBDA aster

Range is not everything reliability and maintainability is also factor why spade2k was introduced vs Chinese system