Pakistan-China Joint Exercise "Shaheen VII - 2018"

[MastanKhan]

@MastanKhan what do you think of J10c for PAF?

Hi,

I would have had 2 sqdrn's in 2013 when the offer came---.

JH-7 no longer makes sense for PAF as availability of better options have opened up but here is an article that might interest you. China offloading it's JH-7s so other nations can benefit, maybe Srilanka or African Nations.
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-...ina-seeking-offload-surplus-military-aircraft

Hi,

Why---?

The JH7A is still the best aircraft for naval strike roles---. Can carry two heavy AShM's---which is a must for naval strike mission---. You cannot go against an enemy with just one AShM ---that is bad planning bad decision---.

As for Paf's assessments---for the last 47 years---they have been from bad to worst---full of excuses and reeking of incompetence---.

Paf has gone so bad that it has jubiliated at shooting down third rate afghan air force aircraft with first rate fighter aircraft and strutting around like peacocks as if they had conquered the K2 for the very first time---.

The naval strike aircraft needs to be considered keeping in perspective the our arabian sea / indian ocean geographic position---.

It is human nature to look for EASY WAY---. That is what the F16 jocks would do---.

If you ever read up the biographies of the US pilots who did not got assigned to other aircraft and not the F16's---they also hated those other aircraft---till they learnt to fly them---flew those aircraft on the merits of HOW THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO BE FLOWN AND USED---and then they changed their minds---.

When the Paf had analyzed them---they did not have the 350 KM ---500 Km range standoff weapons at that time---shoot and scoot. When they analyzed them---they look for a merge---.

In this case---the aircraft would be launching from the farthest possible point and then bugging off---.

One has to look at the arabian sea and pakistan's geography in relation to the opponents geography---pakistan's air base close to Gwadar---one would notice that the Paf would have a lots of leeway in managing and flying their missions---.

This aircraft is not a problem---the problem is with the Paf's mindset---.

 

[khanasifm]

Bangladesh and this forum is notorious for spreading rumors which turned out to be ... last few years

Anyway there were consideration per Jane’s but jf-17 program which needs $$ takes precedence for now per janes, post 2020 if economy develops or pac is able to sell jf-17 in numbers making it possible for pak to take revenue and buy a different type

Jane’s was quoting pak sources in defense

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

As per sources in PAF and China both are trying to convince the govt to purchase initial 2 squadrons of J-10C (36) as stopgap for 5th Gen and also give support to Thunder which has limitations in range and ordinance. We shall wait and see. Favourable financing is available. But depends on overall economy.

Same old Delta to be replaced by Delta...

 

[SQ8]

Same old Delta to be replaced by Delta...

What’s wrong with the delta if it does the job?
@Bilal Khan (Quwa) not as such in favor of the platform but the again it may be a fairly potent system that is being ignored?

As per sources in PAF and China both are trying to convince the govt to purchase initial 2 squadrons of J-10C (36) as stopgap for 5th Gen and also give support to Thunder which has limitations in range and ordinance. We shall wait and see. Favourable financing is available. But depends on overall economy.

This was always the plan per the ASR template from 2004.
The J-10A(FC-20)was shelved due to lack of funds and lack of interest during the PPP and PML(N) rape of Pakistan. Now they are hoping for some positive response from this government but it all depends upon the defense budget being constant(wrt inflation) for the next few years.

What has been in Warnes book as well ten years ago .
150 JF-17
80 F-16
50 PG
36 J-10

And then straight to 5th gen.
The only difference is that a J-10 purchase 8 years ago would have been the J-10B, now it may be the C.

The same way before pressler it was to be 100 F-16As , and now its a mix of MLU’s and Cs. Our operational spares for them are stocked to the brim so it made sense then and made even more sense now.

That doesn’t mean advocacy for the Typhoon and more F-16s had ended in the PaF circles; especially those who would profit off it tangibly or intangibly (same for those advocating for the J-10).

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

What’s wrong with the delta if it does the job?
@Bilal Khan (Quwa) not as such in favor of the platform but the again it may be a fairly potent system that is being ignored?


This was always the plan per the ASR template from 2004.
The J-10A(FC-20)was shelved due to lack of funds and lack of interest during the PPP and PML(N) rape of Pakistan. Now they are hoping for some positive response from this government but it all depends upon the defense budget being constant(wrt inflation) for the next few years.

What has been in Warnes book as well ten years ago .
150 JF-17
80 F-16
50 PG
36 J-10

And then straight to 5th gen.
The only difference is that a J-10 purchase 8 years ago would have been the J-10B, now it may be the C.

The same way before pressler it was to be 100 F-16As , and now its a mix of MLU’s and Cs. Our operational spares for them are stocked to the brim so it made sense then and made even more sense now.

That doesn’t mean advocacy for the Typhoon and more F-16s had ended in the PaF circles; especially those who would profit off it tangibly or intangibly (same for those advocating for the J-10).

The PLAAF is still iffy on exporting the J-10C, but as per CATIC, this is being reviewed on a case by case basis. tbh after seeing China's AESA radars for the Block-3, I'm less concerned about the PAF's platforms and more about munitions work.

We need an analogous solution to the BrahMos, and if getting the HD-1A or CM-302 with ToT will mean shelving a J-10C buy, I'm all for it ... It'd be a better idea to make "little monsters" out of the JF-17, FAC-M and 300 mm rocket launch vehicles.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

What’s wrong with the delta if it does the job?
@Bilal Khan (Quwa) not as such in favor of the platform but the again it may be a fairly potent system that is being ignored?


This was always the plan per the ASR template from 2004.
The J-10A(FC-20)was shelved due to lack of funds and lack of interest during the PPP and PML(N) rape of Pakistan. Now they are hoping for some positive response from this government but it all depends upon the defense budget being constant(wrt inflation) for the next few years.

What has been in Warnes book as well ten years ago .
150 JF-17
80 F-16
50 PG
36 J-10

And then straight to 5th gen.
The only difference is that a J-10 purchase 8 years ago would have been the J-10B, now it may be the C.

The same way before pressler it was to be 100 F-16As , and now its a mix of MLU’s and Cs. Our operational spares for them are stocked to the brim so it made sense then and made even more sense now.

That doesn’t mean advocacy for the Typhoon and more F-16s had ended in the PaF circles; especially those who would profit off it tangibly or intangibly (same for those advocating for the J-10).

Sir,
Not against delta but the issue is if we have to procure muti-role then delta has its disadvantages. If we want purely an interceptor which would give air superiority then there is no harm in getting a delta. If you see Mirages and F-7s were always used for air interdiction roles where as the scope of F-16's was of penetration.

Today PAF produces JF-17 but it is short legged hence can not fully accept the role of F-16's but can free F-16's in larger numbers. JF-17 + F-7 +Mirages can provide a hi-low mix for aerial deniability but this can not be said for F-16's roles.

So what PAF should do and what it should buy has to take into account all threat perception along with possible minimum sanctions.

IMHO
Time for getting J10's for Air superiority is long gone, PAF must go for a 5th Gen Aircraft even if in low numbers. this would completely shift the dynamics if it really wishes to repeat what the F-104's managed to do in 1965.

If PAF is able to initially get 20-22, J-20's or Russian SU-57 then Indian purchase of Rafales (though in trouble) would be completely won without even wasting a bullet.

 

[CriticalThought]

Sir,
Not against delta but the issue is if we have to procure muti-role then delta has its disadvantages. If we want purely an interceptor which would give air superiority then there is no harm in getting a delta. If you see Mirages and F-7s were always used for air interdiction roles where as the scope of F-16's was of penetration.

Today PAF produces JF-17 but it is short legged hence can not fully accept the role of F-16's but can free F-16's in larger numbers. JF-17 + F-7 +Mirages can provide a hi-low mix for aerial deniability but this can not be said for F-16's roles.

So what PAF should do and what it should buy has to take into account all threat perception along with possible minimum sanctions.

IMHO
Time for getting J10's for Air superiority is long gone, PAF must go for a 5th Gen Aircraft even if in low numbers. this would completely shift the dynamics if it really wishes to repeat what the F-104's managed to do in 1965.

If PAF is able to initially get 20-22, J-20's or Russian SU-57 then Indian purchase of Rafales (though in trouble) would be completely won without even wasting a bullet.

J-10 isnt a Delta, but a Delta-Canard. You can definitely use it for air-superiority.

The PLAAF is still iffy on exporting the J-10C, but as per CATIC, this is being reviewed on a case by case basis. tbh after seeing China's AESA radars for the Block-3, I'm less concerned about the PAF's platforms and more about munitions work.

We need an analogous solution to the BrahMos, and if getting the HD-1A or CM-302 with ToT will mean shelving a J-10C buy, I'm all for it ... It'd be a better idea to make "little monsters" out of the JF-17, FAC-M and 300 mm rocket launch vehicles.

Thanks to Allah the Almighty, there is at least one advocate of supersonic CMs who realizes the threat of Brahmos.

We need its counterpart, and because of our limited depth and handful of key infrastructure, we need to be able to defend against it as well.

 

[SQ8]

Sir,
Not against delta but the issue is if we have to procure muti-role then delta has its disadvantages. If we want purely an interceptor which would give air superiority then there is no harm in getting a delta. If you see Mirages and F-7s were always used for air interdiction roles where as the scope of F-16's was of penetration.

Today PAF produces JF-17 but it is short legged hence can not fully accept the role of F-16's but can free F-16's in larger numbers. JF-17 + F-7 +Mirages can provide a hi-low mix for aerial deniability but this can not be said for F-16's roles.

So what PAF should do and what it should buy has to take into account all threat perception along with possible minimum sanctions.

IMHO
Time for getting J10's for Air superiority is long gone, PAF must go for a 5th Gen Aircraft even if in low numbers. this would completely shift the dynamics if it really wishes to repeat what the F-104's managed to do in 1965.

If PAF is able to initially get 20-22, J-20's or Russian SU-57 then Indian purchase of Rafales (though in trouble) would be completely won without even wasting a bullet.

The Mirage 2000 was one of the finest multirole fighters and is a delta. The Rafale is a Delta, the Typhoon is a Delta.. the J-20 is a delta.
Im just pointing out that delta wings and multi-role have NOTHING to do with each other in this context.

The maneuverability of the above platforms is acknowledged worldwide along with their ability to fight both air-to-air and A2G in a single mission.
They can handle air superiority and air interdiction missions with equal capacity.

Sure, some have their strengths compared to others but that is more dependent upon the platform design philosophy than anything else.

 

[TOPGUN]

I seriously think when IAF get's their Raflale's PAF will buy in the J-10C's perhaps even before.

 

[HAIDER]

Pakistan-China "Shaheen VII" from November 30 to December 23, 2018 in Pakistan
https://m.weibo.cn/5461853682/4311745772310091

Another one in line, which is long range strategic mission . Not in news yet.

 

[Akasa]

JF-17 & J-10C are much more suited to carry a subsonic stealthy ALCM than a massive supersonic one that even the J-15 has difficulty equipping. PAF already has the Ra'ad option as well as a few Chinese ones: the GB-500C and GB-6A.

GB-500C with JF-17 (Zhuhai 2018):

GB6A with J-10B (Zhuhai 2016):

Slugging around a 1+ ton HD-1A or CM-302 not only severe hinders the maneuverability of the platform but also its already-limited range. I'm also of the opinion that low-flying, stealthy cruise missiles will eventually supplant the fast but highly-detectable supersonic CMs.

 

[FuturePAF]

Hi,

I would have had 2 sqdrn's in 2013 when the offer came---.



Hi,

Why---?

The JH7A is still the best aircraft for naval strike roles---. Can carry two heavy AShM's---which is a must for naval strike mission---. You cannot go against an enemy with just one AShM ---that is bad planning bad decision---.

As for Paf's assessments---for the last 47 years---they have been from bad to worst---full of excuses and reeking of incompetence---.

Paf has gone so bad that it has jubiliated at shooting down third rate afghan air force aircraft with first rate fighter aircraft and strutting around like peacocks as if they had conquered the K2 for the very first time---.

The naval strike aircraft needs to be considered keeping in perspective the our arabian sea / indian ocean geographic position---.

It is human nature to look for EASY WAY---. That is what the F16 jocks would do---.

If you ever read up the biographies of the US pilots who did not got assigned to other aircraft and not the F16's---they also hated those other aircraft---till they learnt to fly them---flew those aircraft on the merits of HOW THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO BE FLOWN AND USED---and then they changed their minds---.

When the Paf had analyzed them---they did not have the 350 KM ---500 Km range standoff weapons at that time---shoot and scoot. When they analyzed them---they look for a merge---.

In this case---the aircraft would be launching from the farthest possible point and then bugging off---.

One has to look at the arabian sea and pakistan's geography in relation to the opponents geography---pakistan's air base close to Gwadar---one would notice that the Paf would have a lots of leeway in managing and flying their missions---.

This aircraft is not a problem---the problem is with the Paf's mindset---.

Having advocated the JH-7A over the years, I have to admit I didn't see the wisdom of your point. It's not all fighter jocks and limited CAS missions, but dedicated long range strikes Pakistan needs from its Air Force. Letting the missiles do the work from Decent platforms was one point you have tried to impress upon us all.

Secondly, I didn't realize that the JH-7A is such a large platform (9 tons for bombs and missiles) and has the all important ground clearance to carry the larger missiles, the two engines to provide the much needed thrust to carry said missiles, but also the maritime safety of two engines, all in a relatively modest platform.

How many JH-7A do you think the PAF should procure to fulfill the mission you mentioned? should the mission be exclusively maritime focused, or does the PAF need a heavy guided missile carrier for operations on the International border? Also, Should the Pakistan Navy operate the JH-7A? (similar to how the Argentinian Naval Aviation operated the Super Etendards)

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Block III would pretty much enhance the Thunder to great extent

 

[MastanKhan]

Having advocated the JH-7A over the years, I have to admit I didn't see the wisdom of your point. It's not all fighter jocks and limited CAS missions, but dedicated long range strikes Pakistan needs from its Air Force. Letting the missiles do the work from Decent platforms was one point you have tried to impress upon us all.

Secondly, I didn't realize that the JH-7A is such a large platform (9 tons for bombs and missiles) and has the all important ground clearance to carry the larger missiles, the two engines to provide the much needed thrust to carry said missiles, but also the maritime safety of two engines, all in a relatively modest platform.

How many JH-7A do you think the PAF should procure to fulfill the mission you mentioned? should the mission be exclusively maritime focused, or does the PAF need a heavy guided missile carrier for operations on the International border? Also, Should the Pakistan Navy operate the JH-7A? (similar to how the Argentinian Naval Aviation operated the Super Etendards)

View attachment 524793

Hi,

To know about the JH7A is to know about the aircraft---why was it built/created---what was the reasoning---.

The JH7 is the copy of the most feared american aircraft of the cold war---the F111---Aardvark---minus the swing wing---. This aircraft is designed for terrain hugging flight---its engines are efficient at low flight----where the JF17 and the F16's would be guzzling gas---this aircraft would be skimming the waves towards its target.

The A6---the A10---The B52's---slow sluggish aircraft---but beautifully functional in their utility---. The A10 fliers and supporters are crying tears of blood for the aircraft being replaced---but saner heads have prevailed and re-furbished the B52 for stand off strike missions---.

The stand off strike weapons have totally changed the utility of heavy and not so mobile aircraft---it has taken their importance to levels never needed before.

Now just imagine a JH7A with 2 ALCM's on its wings 500 miles away from pakistan's shoreline---pops up to launch altitude and lets go of its ALCM's at the enemy---. You just reached targets from a totally unpredictable angle for the enemy to an area that was not reachable before---and that also without warning to the enemy---.

Low flying aircraft are extremely difficult to see even by radar over land---now when these aircraft are flying over water---they are next to impossible to see---even for surveillance aircraft close by.

Now---if one mission against an enemy ship is successful---what you have done is that you have pushed the enemy's naval force far far back---where they would not be effective---.

The ability of this aircraft to fly heavy fly deep would cover Karachi's flanks from enemy's naval vessels---.

See---the JH7's or the J10B/C's do not bring green cards---cushy jobs in foreign countries---admission to their children in the US and the likes of it---.

All the trials against this aircraft were fabricated by the Paf---.

A heavy strike aircraft is a must for the defenses of Pakistan---Paf admits it or not---but Pakistan needs a heavy weight for protection---.

 

[GriffinsRule]

PAF knows its requirements better than anyone on this forum and they have rejected the JH-7 hands down for a good reason.