Pakistan buys 13 F16 from Jordan

[Battle Axe]

with reference to subject matter, it is very good idea of PAF to increase their fleet by adding old aircraft with available infrastructure.

1. Yes we know these jets can be up grated.
2. Our economy is rising but in steady speed, so old is gold for PAF.
3. JF 17 is not a mature plate form and production is not fixed. We are just assuming everything about thunder.
4. If old F16 ( Block-15) Price is equal to JF17 Block - 1 we should go for F-16 Used to replace half of F-7.




@Munir @Aeronaut @Oscar what do you think pakistan should brought old F16 more and more or invest in JF17 programme as we know, 4th Generation Fighter will be obsolete by the end of this decade. And does we have any plan for Stealth or 4.5 Gen aircraft. Or if not what is the possibility ( which aircraft ) of 4.5 Gen will be inducted in pakistan

Sure, the number of F-16s should go past 100. They are proven fighters rather than JFTs. The best thing would be to replace the F-7 & Mirage with old F-16s and go slow on production of JFTs with more R&D for block Ii and then III. And all old models should be upgraded to Block 50 MLU: things will start looking much brighter: pity that even buying used birds needs US approvals and they come rare & slow.

 

[Battle Axe]

IMO Pakistan Airforce think are the most ******** in the history of any country.... Look @ Pakistan's Airforce decision makers from past 60 years... just only 40 F16s of such state who are IN THE STATE OF WAR ... who has most Strategic important location in this whole world... whom have 2 super Powers along with 1 soft power side by side.. Look @ the decision of buying Aircrafts from past 20 years. Look @ the decision making of buying Aircraft from last 10 years... you will be SURPRISE!!... for understanding the situation and correct decision of What you need actually.... you don't need MONEY... you need BRAIN! which unfortunately Pakistan Airforce think Tanks lacking since the birth of PAKISTAN!

Cool it man, PAF has been doing the best job under the given circumstances. No one was prepared to sell us pretty much a few years ago and even today, except China.

 

[Donatello]

Well said!! Law and Order should be top priority.

Which brings me back to the initial statement i made some time ago, use these F-16s to bomb the militants. Finish off their sanctuaries, destroy their sources of funding. Once they see their leadership is taken out by F-16s/JF-17s they will automatically be forced into submission.

It is a great time to test the effectiveness of those JDAMs and MK84 that Pakistan bought.

 

[araz]

We got the worst still flying RJAF F16's. Not even the correct engine. To me this shows the situation the nation is. When we talk about the bird slicers aka IFF antenna's... This is clearly not even close to the MLU'ed decades old planes that were bought by Jordan from the Dutch and Belgians... And those planes were already not the best planes to buy.

So the fact that two F16B b15 are parked and everyone talks about one... The bad quality that is clearly visible... It is the question how blind we are.

Munir
You may be right but please consider the following. At the moment it is the most expedient way of augmenting a fast obsolete fleet of PAF. Even JFT infrastructure is so rudimentary that toher than 2 sites we cannot maintain a fleet of JFTs. Even if they have not been MLUed , they will serve till such time that the rest of the MLU fleet returns from Turkey. Any changes that need to be made subsequently can be done locally or with TAI as we seem to have had approval for the kits for MLU. It is not perfect but we cannot be choosers. Even if you ask the US for MLUs to come over you know as well as I do that it iwll take a yr or even longer before MLU is done. Plus do you really want the MLU to be done in US. So all in all we have made the best possible decision under the worst possible circumstances.
J10 will not be available till 2015-17 due to maturity of the platform and more importantly maturity of WS10. PAF will not buy J10with AL31 due to the unreliability of the supply chain.. We are not buying old RD33s from Ukraine without any reason and you know what the reasons are.
regards
Araz

Which brings me back to the initial statement i made some time ago, use these F-16s to bomb the militants. Finish off their sanctuaries, destroy their sources of funding. Once they see their leadership is taken out by F-16s/JF-17s they will automatically be forced into submission.

It is a great time to test the effectiveness of those JDAMs and MK84 that Pakistan bought.

!0 yrs and you have still not understood. Why do you think PA has resisted the idea of going after them. My brother it is a zero sum game. The nasties are hidden amongst you and you cant cut this cancer out without significant bloodshed which will alienate the majority of the nation. You would be pissed off too if there was collateral damage in ana area where you lived and some of your loved ones dies in it. Violence begets violence and the only way of resolving this issue is through a combination of dialogue and surgical strikes if needed. full scale bombing will cause too much chaos and get little in respoinse. One of the problems is that you dont have enough of a mandate on your side. If the banner of Islam is lifted inspite of the reasons being wrong how amny of our populace is likely to follow you. The solution is political and not through war. However selective surgical strikes as have been carried out are very much on the cards
My 2 paisas worth/.
Araz

 

[Secur]

@araz Why do you think that not much of a mandate is on our side ? Has the populace been much seduced by the opiate of the masses ? Do the extremists offer more than we do and something far more lucrative ?

 

[ziaulislam]

@araz Why do you think that not much of a mandate is on our side ? Has the populace been much seduced by the opiate of the masses ? Do the extremists offer more than we do and something far more lucrative ?

mandate is not on our side. unless 99% population is on your side you cant win without collateral dmage to state intersts ..
look at JUI and PTI they present a population and they are against army operation against taliban.
especially the JUI even thinks that its army who is at fault and TTP are good angels who can easily be brought into peace

lastly, f-16 ADF can fire AIM 120 and it has sufficient shelf life left. this does make it a potent fighter.

real question i would ask is what was the price we paid for them? there isnt any value in media and speculation are just speculation

 

[Najam Khan]

We got the worst still flying RJAF F16's. Not even the correct engine. To me this shows the situation the nation is. When we talk about the bird slicers aka IFF antenna's... This is clearly not even close to the MLU'ed decades old planes that were bought by Jordan from the Dutch and Belgians... And those planes were already not the best planes to buy.

So the fact that two F16B b15 are parked and everyone talks about one... The bad quality that is clearly visible... It is the question how blind we are.

Sir, I respectfully disagree. This is a worthy deal, procurement of non-MLU air frames was already decided. Further, we can go to TAI anytime (with US consent off-course) for MLU; going at current stage when these aircraft have 5-7 air worthy years (ref. to current F-16 flying rate) of service remaining might not be a good decision. Our requirement are way different then Jordanians/Belgians/Chile Air Forces procurement they have different needs and different threats..its like comparing apples to oranges.

Also, whatever MLU brings is not needed right now; 3 F-16 units already are tasked in those role.
I believe engine shall be upgraded locally, with structural reinforcements (if required), HUD box can be replaced locally...so I don't think its an issue. This was simply not an MLU a/c procurement.

Cheers.

 

[Munir]

I mentioned the price... Nor directly but you can calculate it...

 

[Armstrong]

Sir, I respectfully disagree. This is a worthy deal, procurement of non-MLU air frames was already decided. Further, we can go to TAI anytime (with US consent off-course) for MLU; going at current stage when these aircraft have 5-7 air worthy years (ref. to current F-16 flying rate) of service remaining might not be a good decision. Our requirement are way different then Jordanians/Belgians/Chile Air Forces procurement they have different needs and different threats..its like comparing apples to oranges.

Also, whatever MLU brings is not needed right now; 3 F-16 units already are tasked in those role.
I believe engine shall be upgraded locally, with structural reinforcements (if required), HUD box can be replaced locally...so I don't think its an issue. This was simply not an MLU a/c procurement.

Cheers.

Khan Sahib - How are you doing ?

Long time no see !

Waisee, if this really is the PAF going ala-Mirages on the F-16s whereby we procure them from wherever we can (subject to US Approval) and do what we did to the Mirages (in terms of squeezing considerable efficiency and effectiveness out of them through air-frame upgrades and the addition of better avionics), why the heck did we not do this in the early '00s when we both had the cash and were in the good-books of the Americans to be able to procure more of these and have them MLUed in time ?

Sometimes I wonder which truly was the Lost Decade for the PAF - the '90s when we were embargoed or the '00s when we appeared to be sloppy and casual in terms of exploiting the opportunities that came our way !

 

[VelocuR]

Why so depressed? I know it is hard times, but we need to get the house in order first. Without a sound economy we can't buy anything. And for a sound economy we need to fix the law and order situation.

Well said!! Law and Order should be top priority.

It is NOT possible that our house would be in order and will fix anytime soon, my predict is our nation takes time to learn in approximately 100 or 120 years from now (65 years old) due to massive problems, unstable situations, and unsolved long issues in our house, just our bad luck being Pakistani ourselves.

 

[krash]

Khan Sahib - How are you doing ?

Long time no see !

Waisee, if this really is the PAF going ala-Mirages on the F-16s whereby we procure them from wherever we can (subject to US Approval) and do what we did to the Mirages (in terms of squeezing considerable efficiency and effectiveness out of them through air-frame upgrades and the addition of better avionics), why the heck did we not do this in the early '00s when we both had the cash and were in the good-books of the Americans to be able to procure more of these and have them MLUed in time ?

Sometimes I wonder which truly was the Lost Decade for the PAF - the '90s when we were embargoed or the '00s when we appeared to be sloppy and casual in terms of exploiting the opportunities that came our way !

Since we had the money and the favour we were going for brand spanking new Block 52+s. We all know what happened then; the number cuts, J-10s, etc.

 

[Armstrong]

Since we had the money and the favour we were going for brand spanking new Block 52+s. We all know what happened then; the number cuts, J-10s, etc.

But shouldn't an organization as sanctioned as the PAF be the best person to appreciate the possibility of acquiring as many F-16s as we could and having them MLUed in addition to going for the Block 52s as a matter of prudence as and when the first window of opportunity opened up ?

 

[araz]

@araz Why do you think that not much of a mandate is on our side ? Has the populace been much seduced by the opiate of the masses ? Do the extremists offer more than we do and something far more lucrative ?

Ìts not what they Offer but what the government of Pakistan does not offer that is worthy of discussion. The term lucrative can have different values to different people.
Araz

 

[VCheng]

@araz Why do you think that not much of a mandate is on our side ? Has the populace been much seduced by the opiate of the masses ? Do the extremists offer more than we do and something far more lucrative ?

These are pertinent questions. At what point does the extremist viewpoint become the overwhelming majority, leading to the last remaining step, which is gaining political power, and what would be the consequences?

 

[Donatello]

Khan Sahib - How are you doing ?

Long time no see !

Waisee, if this really is the PAF going ala-Mirages on the F-16s whereby we procure them from wherever we can (subject to US Approval) and do what we did to the Mirages (in terms of squeezing considerable efficiency and effectiveness out of them through air-frame upgrades and the addition of better avionics), why the heck did we not do this in the early '00s when we both had the cash and were in the good-books of the Americans to be able to procure more of these and have them MLUed in time ?

Sometimes I wonder which truly was the Lost Decade for the PAF - the '90s when we were embargoed or the '00s when we appeared to be sloppy and casual in terms of exploiting the opportunities that came our way !

The reason was Musharraf. Or the politics that came with him. Apparently Mushaf Ali Mir Sahib was was at odds with Musharraf on a number of PAF procurement plans and Musharraf didn't like him. Can't say much, maybe others can add.

There are conspiracy theories a plenty.