Pakistan blames US for its polio mess

[INDIC]

Pakistan has blamed the US for its dismal record on polio inoculation, with the government citing the CIA’s fake drive to trace Osama Bin Laden being the reason for the rise in vaccine refusal by families.
A government spokesman told the media on Friday that the decision to place restrictions on passengers leaving the country “unfortunate” given that it is the CIA that is to blame for the problem in the first place.
In 2012, an alliance of about 200 US-based NGOs had expressed deep concern over a vaccination campaign carried out in Abbottabad by the CIA and expressed fear that the action may jeopardise the lives of aid workers in the country.
In a letter written to CIA Director, the NGOs registered serious objections to the vaccination campaign launched to collect intelligence about Al-Qaeda chief. The fact that the CIA had launched such fake campaigns was confirmed by US Defence Secretary Leon Panetta in an interview on Janurary 2012.
On Friday, foreign office spokesperson Tasnim Aslam said that the rise in polio-related incidents could be attributed to the distrust of NGOs by Pakistanis following the fake CIA drive.
- See more at: Pakistan blames US for its polio mess - Hindustan Times

I found another news from Thursday 15 February 2007

Polio cases jump in Pakistan as clerics declare vaccination an American plot | World news | The Guardian

 

[That Guy]

...A senior U.S. official with knowledge of the immunization program defends it. “The vaccination efforts were both limited and, more importantly, real,” he says. “They were conducted by genuine medical professionals. The idea that these were in any way fake is simply mistaken. Many Pakistani children received vaccinations, and if the effort had not been interrupted by the arrest of the doctor, they would have been fully immunized.” link

And we're supposed to just believe a random anonymous official? No thank you. The program was fake, even if the shots themselves were not. I have no reason to believe that the program was real, because there is little evidence to back that up, yet there is plenty that suggest the entire program was a farce meant to find and kill OBL. Whether or not Afridi is a hero, a traitor, or a scapegoat is up for debate, what is not up for debate is that the program was faker than plastic surgery on a super model, because there is nothing to debate about. You cannot debate facts.

 

[illusion8]

I found another news from Thursday 15 February 2007

Polio cases jump in Pakistan as clerics declare vaccination an American plot | World news | The Guardian

I remember reading a 2009 report about Pakistani mullahs banning polio immunization as a conspiracy to make Muslim men impotent.

The CIA, RAW and Mossad are simply pseudo scapegoats for the Mullah propaganda.

 

[Solomon2]

And we're supposed to just believe a random anonymous official? No thank you. The program was fake, even if the shots themselves were not. I have no reason to believe that the program was real, because there is little evidence to back that up -

As I pointed out on the previous page, you don't have to believe me at all and can check for yourself the Abbottabad report on the Al-Jazeera website.

- what is not up for debate is that the program was faker than plastic surgery on a super model, because there is nothing to debate about. You cannot debate facts.

Of course, I debate what is factual and what is not. And the only thing I see "beyond dispute" here is that Pakistanis like yourself want to believe the vaccine program was a fake and are determined to shut your minds to any evidence or logic demonstrating otherwise.

 

[INDIC]

I remember reading a 2009 report about Pakistani mullahs banning polio immunization as a conspiracy to make Muslim men impotent.

The CIA, RAW and Mossad are simply pseudo scapegoats for the Mullah propaganda.

Apart from Mullah propaganda other main reason is Pakistan health department don't have money for eradication of fatal diseases or they don't spend much on eradication, in short they too blame CIA for their own incapability. Have you watched this.

 

[Cherokee]

I have proved it multiple times that anti-polio drive and killings are older than shakeel afridi fiasco .

But You can't show light to those who close their eyes and scream "everything is dark" .

 

[patriotpakistan]

You know what, you can blame the entire world and cry as to why they are to the reason for your problems. But, at the end of the day, they are your countrymen and your children and no amount of blaming will save them. Better to solve the issue first, instead of giving excuses which is resulting in more disabilities and deaths. You do understand the polio is just one vaccine. There are other vaccines which are life saving, which could be the target later.

Why do you suggest we don't want to save them? Under recent new Khyber provincial government, Peshawar was fully vaccinated and polio has been eradicated there. Same is to follow in other areas. However, that does not absolve the american crimes against the Pakistani people. We do not forget so easily and we will not remain silent about such things.

 

[That Guy]

As I pointed out on the previous page, you don't have to believe me at all and can check for yourself the Abbottabad report on the Al-Jazeera website.

Of course, I debate what is factual and what is not. And the only thing I see "beyond dispute" here is that Pakistanis like yourself want to believe the vaccine program was a fake and are determined to shut your minds to any evidence or logic demonstrating otherwise.

Except there is no evidence nor logic to your claims other than an unnamed official. That's like me claiming you're an alien from Pluto because an unnamed official who knows about you told me.

Like I said, the vaccines may have been real, but the program itself was a fake. The only one who seems to be shutting their minds to the obvious is you.

 

[Solomon2]

Except there is no evidence nor logic to your claims other than an unnamed official.

It's like I didn't write anything. Why should readers think your analyses remain credible when you've demonstrated such a lack of self-honesty?

 

[That Guy]

It's like I didn't write anything. Why should readers think your analyses remain credible when you've demonstrated such a lack of self-honesty?

No, I acknowledged what your wrote, and pointed out what it actually said in the article that your pointed me towards.

In fact, here was your entire quote

...A senior U.S. official with knowledge of the immunization program defends it. “The vaccination efforts were both limited and, more importantly, real,” he says. “They were conducted by genuine medical professionals. The idea that these were in any way fake is simply mistaken. Many Pakistani children received vaccinations, and if the effort had not been interrupted by the arrest of the doctor, they would have been fully immunized.”

Or are you pointing out about the Newsweek article?

The program was a success, Mamraiz recalls—except for one thing: the workers had only enough vaccine to immunize the few neighborhoods Afridi specified. Many locals were disappointed. “Everybody in town was eager to be vaccinated,” says Mamraiz.

Which means that the vaccination program wasn't serious to even begin with.

How about the Al-Jazeera report?

According to the leaked documents (I went through the relevant section -Pages 109-122-), he was requested by a person named "Kate" to expand the program to Muzzufarabad, Bagh and Abbotabad (Page 112), he replied that he had no experience in Azad Kashmir, so he volunteered to go for the program in Abbotabad, which raises the question, why wasn't he given enough vaccines to cover the entire area? Why only a few neighborhoods. You can't say government incompetence, he supposedly was working for Save the Children, a foreign NGO, along with USAID(110), and if USAID is involved, he should have been given enough money for such an operation, as the Americans were financing the entire project. Apparently, the campaign's cost was a little over Rs. 5 million, which is around $50,000 for 3 drops for a group of women and children(Page 114). There is a whole lot more I can point out to, like how Afridi was receiving cash payments directly to his personal bank account, instead of checks through the department he was working in (which apparently had no involvement in this entire program); Or how about the fact that "Kate" had him stand outside the OBL compound with a sat radio on for no apparent reason. Another indication the program was fake is that every time to went to meet this Kate person, he was always taken to a warehouse, in a car with tinted windows. If he didn't have any suspicions about his colleagues before, he should have now.

So yeah, like I said, the vaccines may have been real, but the program was fake. Afridi had to at least be suspicious about the program's real goals, even if he didn't want to admit it. Whether or not he was complacent is another story altogether, but you cannot deny that the program's aim was not to immunize anyone, that was just a symptom of the entire operation. It was a means to an end, and was only used to locate OBL, nothing more. Apparently, he didn't finish "phase one", he just completed the campaign in a few areas that he was brought to (so I don't know where you even got this idea of a "phase one" being completed).

You want to talk about self honesty, how about you try it for yourself for a change, and read the sources you give, instead of trying to twist their meaning or the evidence presented by them.

 

[Solomon2]

How about the Al-Jazeera report?

Yes. Much better.

According to the leaked documents (I went through the relevant section -Pages 109-122-), he was requested by a person named "Kate" to expand the program to Muzzufarabad, Bagh and Abbotabad (Page 112), he replied that he had no experience in Azad Kashmir, so he volunteered to go for the program in Abbotabad, which raises the question, why wasn't he given enough vaccines to cover the entire area? Why only a few neighborhoods. You can't say government incompetence, he supposedly was working for Save the Children, a foreign NGO, along with USAID(110), and if USAID is involved, he should have been given enough money for such an operation, as the Americans were financing the entire project. Apparently, the campaign's cost was a little over Rs. 5 million, which is around $50,000 for 3 drops for a group of women and children(Page 114).

So it was a genuine program after all. Criticizing it for not being bigger seems petty.

There is a whole lot more I can point out to, like how Afridi was receiving cash payments directly to his personal bank account, instead of checks through the department he was working in (which apparently had no involvement in this entire program);

Sure, go ahead. You'll come across the same stuff the Commission did, that this was the only way to fund without 90% of the money disappearing into the pit of corruption.

Or how about the fact that "Kate" had him stand outside the OBL compound with a sat radio on for no apparent reason. Another indication the program was fake is that every time to went to meet this Kate person, he was always taken to a warehouse, in a car with tinted windows. If he didn't have any suspicions about his colleagues before, he should have now.

While the circumstances suggest there may be additional motives, there is nothing here to indicate the vaccination program was a fake - that Pakistanis didn't receive the real medical services that Afridi promised.

Afridi had to at least be suspicious about the program's real goals, even if he didn't want to admit it.

Why?

- but you cannot deny that the program's aim was not to immunize anyone, that was just a symptom of the entire operation. It was a means to an end, and was only used to locate OBL, nothing more.

The report you've quoted indicates the opposite of what you claim.

 

[That Guy]

Yes. Much better.

So it was a genuine program after all. Criticizing it for not being bigger seems petty.

Sure, go ahead. You'll come across the same stuff the Commission did, that this was the only way to fund without 90% of the money disappearing into the pit of corruption.


While the circumstances suggest there may be additional motives, there is nothing here to indicate the vaccination program was a fake - that Pakistanis didn't receive the real medical services that Afridi promised.

Why?

The report you've quoted indicates the opposite of what you claim.

It seems you're being intellectually dishonest here by either not reading my comment completely, or by misrepresenting it.

First of all, the size of the program is a direct indication of how little seriousness the soo called vaccination program itself was given, which indicates that it was just an excuse used to snoope around the area. It's not the size itself that I criticize, it's what the size represents. It seems you're purposefully ignore this very thing.

Second, the report, while it did indicate corruption, that was during the FATA campaign (in 2009), not the Abbotabad campaign, which was handled almost exclusively by NGOs + USAID. Again, trying to twist facts to suit your views makes you intellectually dishonest.

Everything I've pointed out shows that the program was fake, and the only thing that wasn't were the vaccines. You can have a fake program with real vaccines, why don't you understand this basic premise? The program's small scale was an indication that the campaign wasn't being taken seriously if it was real, which means that it was only being used to keep CIA actions covert and justify their actions in the area disguised as NGO workers.

As for why? Did you even bother reading what I wrote? If you're taken to an abandoned warehouse in a tinted window vehicle, all to meet just one or two people, wouldn't you be suspicious?

The report indicates exactly what I've claimed, don't try and twist facts to suit your flawed logic. If you can't be bothered to use your critical thinking skills, then I guess we're done here.

--

Back to topic, my point still stands, it's mistrust that's stopping people and parents from getting immunized.