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Pakistan begins submarine procurement talks with China

Would it not be possible for pakistan to upgrade and produce more Agusta90bs? would this not be a cheaper option? Did pakistan obtain a TOT for this or was it just assembling the submarines?

The Yuan class, is it more sophisticated than the Agustas? Pakistan needs to concentrate on being cost effective....it cannot compete with its neighbour on the same basis...and probably does not need to match each items in their respective inventories......If Pakistan is to increase its capabilities then it needs to focus alot more on its economy/energy needs.
 
Would it not be possible for pakistan to upgrade and produce more Agusta90bs? would this not be a cheaper option? Did pakistan obtain a TOT for this or was it just assembling the submarines?

The Yuan class, is it more sophisticated than the Agustas? Pakistan needs to concentrate on being cost effective....it cannot compete with its neighbour on the same basis...and probably does not need to match each items in their respective inventories......If Pakistan is to increase its capabilities then it needs to focus alot more on its economy/energy needs.

Type 039A/B (Yuan Class) Diesel-Electric Submarine - SinoDefence.com

SSK Agosta 90B Class Attack Submarine - Naval Technology
 
Bossman,

When you go to a doctor and wants to check your relfexes and he hits your elbow or knee joint with a rubber mallet---and your legs jumps up or your arm reflexes---that is what it reminds me off.

Is this like a lover's quarrel between you and me---before we kiss and make up.

Or is it that I have stolen your cow, that you are mad at me---or is it that each and everyone of my post posts acts as a catalyst on your belief---the moment you read them---there is an extreme reaction.

The reason I say that there is no God in pakistan----for the reason---look at the universe and its existence---each and everyone thing is moving around in harmony to co-exist. The creator of this universe has created a masterpiece that shows in the cohesive existence of its creation---.

Now as for the subs----we are again between a rock and a hard spot---it took us years to assess the capabilities of the german sub---now that we had decided, there were other mitigating factors that came enforce which stopped the transaction.

Seems like time is our worst enemy----we have issues over the long run. Now, it comes down to the chinese subs---.

Judge Chaudhry has really killed our economic welbeing----he never anticipated the financial loss and the consequences the nation would suffer for his fight to get back his seat.

The arabs did what they did, because they were men of character and honor----they provided justice to the weak and the poor---without prejudice and default.

In a country of God / Allah, it provides justice to the weak, the meek, the old, the young, those without resource without prejudice and remorse.

A Godless country is a shameless country----where the weak and the meek never get any justice---where boys are molested---women gang raped and the perforators of the crime walk the street openly thumping their chest regarding the misdeeds---without any fear of reprisals from any court of law---or with any fear of the our Lord Allah.

When such conditions exist in a nation----there is only darkness of the soul left in that nation---.

Where every other muslim man---profanes the mother of another muslim---or the profanes the sister of other muslim---or threatens to sodmize another muslim---or his little brothers and sons---where profanity is a way of life---every sentence is filled with vulgarity---that is a sign of a nation who has lost his God and his prophet.

Ask the poor villgers in punjab where the God is when their little boys are molested by the strongmen---then their women molested by the strong---then they complain to the landlord and he laughs at them---and when the poor talk about God and his justice----the powerful laugh at it and tell the poor---go search for your God and let me know when you find Him----and they claim to be the god---Bossman----you are living in an illusion.

Mastaan,

If you only look for evil you will find it everywhere. Nobody is denying that eveil does not exist in the country or for that matter anywhere in the world. But this is not the place for you to sermonize. You should find a different and more appropriate forum for your rants. Your are patronizing and contemptous toward other members especially the more inexperienced ones. You are using this forum mostly to promote and massage your own ego. You have little or no knowledge of defence matters. If you expect respect from me show respect to others.
 
Hi,

It is not the denial or the existance----but it the extant of evil that has spread into the society that is an issue.

Evil is every where---no doubt about it----but most others don't claim the sainthood that we claim. We call ourselves the protectors of islam----and when threatened we call in the blasphemy laws---. When challenged----the vulgarity and profanity that we use in our language while protecting the NAMOOS A RISALAT---THE DIGNITY OF HOLY QURA'AN is beyond comprehension of a living being with any kind of conscience left in them.

The tactics that the pakistanis have used in belittling opponents by using religion, namoos a risalat and qura'an----is beyond shame----in the name of Allah, the prophet Mohammad and the Holy Qura'an the pakistani have committed heinious crimes aganist living humanity----and hasn't stopped there either and has been carried on over the dead bodies as well.

If our beloved prophet Mohammad was alive today and saw what was happening in this LAND OF THE PURE---his screams full of pain and agony would be heard all across the universe----.

Our prophet who forgave one and all---people who committed atrocities against him----Hazrat Ali----who forgave the man who he was about to kill in the battle when that man spat on his face----.

Allah told us---chose your leaders carefully---chose those amongst you who have the capability of providing you with justice, make good decisions for you and look after for your welfare----there was so much emphasis for chosing good leadership----people with character, dignity, honesty and people who chose law over excess, people who enforced the rule of law over one and sundry with equality.

An islamic society is a society of the rule of law, equality for all and justice for the weak and the poor alongwith the well offs.

The masses converted to islam not to say the prayers for five times a day---or to offer fastings for 30 days---or to go to haj---or to offer zakat---they converted to the belief for equality---for justice----for a right to life----for right to living in a state that was compassionate to their needs---a state that protected the weak against the strong---a state where a man could live, prosper as a free being with human dignity and honor----.

So---if you look at the emphasis that has been put on the selection of chosing the right kind of leadership---it shows what an important and integral part of the belief this often forgotten part is---as a matter of fact this is the most important part of the belief when it comes to serving the mankind---.

A muslim nation that has no protection for the weak and the poor and the weary, for women and for children, for the old and the despondent----that nation has no righ to callitself the islamic republic of pakistan----or the leader of the islamic nations----or the fort of islam----.



Submarines----I would reccommend to you guys to read up on a sub writer---Joe Buff-----whereas Tom Clancy wrote about the sub warfare of the 80's----Joe writes about the sub warfare in the 21st century----.

The tactics have changed dramatically as has the electronics, the sensors, the underseas weaponery, the submarines themselves---todays subs and their capabilities are a light years ahead of what was in the 70's and 80's----.

It literally is an eye opener to see the capabilities of the sea wolf class subs---even if it is a case of fiction ( Robert Ludlum once wrote that in every piece of fiction, there is some truth to it ).

I very much doubt that the pakistani politicians had any clue where the submarine warfare was headed towards---if they had know----they would have been on a fast track to have signed up the german sub deal years ago----.

A less expensive alternative is anti submarine warfare equipment---for that pak doesnot have to spend as much---being in the geographic location that it is, it might have to look at other means and resourc es to counter the subs---.

I think for that reason the OHP will play a very important role. If you can't get the subs---get the surface vessels---they are cheaper and they pack a lot of punch---.

You can literally lose multiple surface vessels to one enemy sub and still come out ahead---todays subs are a billion dollar preposition---but the psychologuical loss of one is immensely greater than the loss of many surface vessels---I am only talking about the local scenario here.

If you get one sub---then you have a better chance of getting the others in the proximity----a surface fleet could be equally important for us and may do the job if we have the right assets in place.
 
Hi,

It is not the denial or the existance----but it the extant of evil that has spread into the society that is an issue.

Evil is every where---no doubt about it----but most others don't claim the sainthood that we claim. We call ourselves the protectors of islam----and when threatened we call in the blasphemy laws---. When challenged----the vulgarity and profanity that we use in our language while protecting the NAMOOS A RISALAT---THE DIGNITY OF HOLY QURA'AN is beyond comprehension of a living being with any kind of conscience left in them.

The tactics that the pakistanis have used in belittling opponents by using religion, namoos a risalat and qura'an----is beyond shame----in the name of Allah, the prophet Mohammad and the Holy Qura'an the pakistani have committed heinious crimes aganist living humanity----and hasn't stopped there either and has been carried on over the dead bodies as well.

If our beloved prophet Mohammad was alive today and saw what was happening in this LAND OF THE PURE---his screams full of pain and agony would be heard all across the universe----.

Our prophet who forgave one and all---people who committed atrocities against him----Hazrat Ali----who forgave the man who he was about to kill in the battle when that man spat on his face----.

Allah told us---chose your leaders carefully---chose those amongst you who have the capability of providing you with justice, make good decisions for you and look after for your welfare----there was so much emphasis for chosing good leadership----people with character, dignity, honesty and people who chose law over excess, people who enforced the rule of law over one and sundry with equality.

An islamic society is a society of the rule of law, equality for all and justice for the weak and the poor alongwith the well offs.

The masses converted to islam not to say the prayers for five times a day---or to offer fastings for 30 days---or to go to haj---or to offer zakat---they converted to the belief for equality---for justice----for a right to life----for right to living in a state that was compassionate to their needs---a state that protected the weak against the strong---a state where a man could live, prosper as a free being with human dignity and honor----.

So---if you look at the emphasis that has been put on the selection of chosing the right kind of leadership---it shows what an important and integral part of the belief this often forgotten part is---as a matter of fact this is the most important part of the belief when it comes to serving the mankind---.

A muslim nation that has no protection for the weak and the poor and the weary, for women and for children, for the old and the despondent----that nation has no righ to callitself the islamic republic of pakistan----or the leader of the islamic nations----or the fort of islam----.



Submarines----I would reccommend to you guys to read up on a sub writer---Joe Buff-----whereas Tom Clancy wrote about the sub warfare of the 80's----Joe writes about the sub warfare in the 21st century----.

The tactics have changed dramatically as has the electronics, the sensors, the underseas weaponery, the submarines themselves---todays subs and their capabilities are a light years ahead of what was in the 70's and 80's----.

It literally is an eye opener to see the capabilities of the sea wolf class subs---even if it is a case of fiction ( Robert Ludlum once wrote that in every piece of fiction, there is some truth to it ).

I very much doubt that the pakistani politicians had any clue where the submarine warfare was headed towards---if they had know----they would have been on a fast track to have signed up the german sub deal years ago----.

A less expensive alternative is anti submarine warfare equipment---for that pak doesnot have to spend as much---being in the geographic location that it is, it might have to look at other means and resourc es to counter the subs---.

I think for that reason the OHP will play a very important role. If you can't get the subs---get the surface vessels---they are cheaper and they pack a lot of punch---.

You can literally lose multiple surface vessels to one enemy sub and still come out ahead---todays subs are a billion dollar preposition---but the psychologuical loss of one is immensely greater than the loss of many surface vessels---I am only talking about the local scenario here.

If you get one sub---then you have a better chance of getting the others in the proximity----a surface fleet could be equally important for us and may do the job if we have the right assets in place.

As to your sermonizing on religion, the only thing I say that if there is evil, there is also a lot of good. Despite all the issues that you have pointed out, I see a lot of good and I can prove that but this is not the place for it. I will only say that you are exagerating the bad aspects. This is typical immigrant mindset somewhat akin to the Stockholm syndrome.

As far as submarines are concerned, you said it I didn't. It seems that the views on military topics that you state on this forum with such authority are based primarily on reading up on spy thriller fiction. This proves what I have been saying since I started reacting to your posts. You have no credibility but you go about pretending to know it all and you act condescending and contemptous towards other members especially the younger ones.

Politicians are not expected to know about submarine warfare but I am sure Pakistan Navy knows something about it. After all they were one of the first countries in Asia to operate a sub and also until recently to sink a warship using a sub after the second world war. I think it will be obvious to even a retard that submarine warfare like all other types warfare has taken a quantum leap since 70s and the 80s so why state the obvious.

There is no evidence that Germans have backed off from selling the U 214s to Pakistan. The sale was approved by the German parliment. It was Pakistan who backed off which could be due to multiple reasons. Financial constraints, Zardari's interest to go for the Fre nch option so he can get his cut or a more cost effective Chinese option or a combination. Another reason for looking at the Chinese option could be the possibility of customizing the design to incorporate submarine launched missiles which the Europeans will not do. There are rumours that Chinese might be willing to lease a nuclear submarine along with selling SSKs or sell a hull to which an indegenous nuclear reactor could be installed. I for one believe that acquiring just another conventional submarine even the most advanced in the world, will not give us the quantum jump that a nuclear powered one will. In recent years significant improvement has been reported in Chinese subs. There have been a number of reports where Chinese subs have emerged inside the perimeter of a USN battle group without being detected.

Surface or air based antisubmarine capability although desirable is not an alternate to submarines becuase these two capabilities play entirely different tactical and strategic roles.
 
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Hi,

There is no need to present evidence---you can do the search---it has already happened. The german parliament already approved it awhile ago

When you are not surrounded by an ocean and you don't have the money to buy the submarines then the few other options that are left are anti submarine surface ships and aircraft---and the geographic positon that pakistan is in---it can very well manage to make a dent on the enemy with a good sufrace fleet---but good air assets can play havoc against the subs.

It is a misnmomer amongst the many that the submarine---as they are underwater---may go diving deep anywhere in the ocean----such is not the case---the subs taken certain routes that are mapped and tracked---now when they go down and where they pop up is a different story.

The person who believes in the term " I can prove " is living an illusion and has a fool for an audience that is himself---. You can only share and let others be the judge.

If you would have read some fictions---Bossman---you would have known that stockholm syndrome has nothing to do with what you are saying---but that can work in reverse as well.

You can prove all you want---but as is obvious from your testiness in your post----if you had the oppurtunity---you would not miss out on the profanity and vulgarity I talked about---I can just feel the rage in your posts---but keep on trying---you might see the light one day---there is hope for living souls---not all of them---.

Ficiton is only fiction to the illeterate and one without knowledge---unless you have seen through the veil across to the other side---you would never know the truth between fiction and reality---.

So keep on fighting----thanks for giving me the oppurtunity to send my message across to many who want to know and to learn---your retaliating posts have given me a great oppurtunity to share with other---and I firmly believe that there are many who are laughing and smiling at what they are reading now---either at me or at you.

So---thankyou Bossman----keep it up---. I am a nobody without a good enemy---.
 
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Hi,

I often forget the saying---" Never argue with a fool---he will bring you down to his level and beat you with experience ".

Naval warfare and what happened beneath the surface of the oceans was a mystery for the longest period of time----anything written about it was truly a work of fiction till TOM CLANCY came out with his " Hunt for the Red Oktober "---what was only known as rumours became reality---what was only known as fiction, blew the tops of many who had of sense of something but didnot know the extent to which it was---.

It totally blew out the myth of the russian naval power and submarine operations----by exposing the capabilities of the american and russian fleets---by exposing the intelligence gathering capabilities of the u s submarine fleet in such an open manner in a work of so called " FICTION ", Clancy tore apart the myth of russian supremacy under the seas in such a ruthless manner that even the russians were shocked at those revelation in such an open manner.

Actually, it was not the russians alone who were shocked----it was the americans and the rest of the free wolrd who knew some of the stuff that existed but didnot know to what extent---that was equally shocked at such a preposterous and stunning exposure of naval secrets and doctrine in a work of so called "FICTION"---.

For the first time in the history of undersea naval warfare during peacetime---the exposure of the the tactics and the capabilities of the american subs and the russian subs, the game that the electronic sensors played, was so blantantly displayed in the public forums, that the exposure could have been deemed nothing but a work of fantasy---.

But to those who knew some of the stuff that happened, that a lot of it was true----that even with all the exposures that were made in that book---the U S technology was so far ahead of the russians---that even with everything exposed---they still could not meet the challenge.


The biggest fear that any intelligence agency in the U S or britain has is about leakage of sensitive stuff through a work of fiction. The writer can stand behind the discalimer that he has put in the first page of the book for ignoreing any similiarities.

It is the biggest challenge that the american intelligence agencies are facing today---and it is the biggest source of open secretr available to countries like china---where there are special departments in the intel agencies simply assigend to go through these works of so called 'FICTION" to gather material----I believe the fool in pak intel agy's have not woken up to that at this time---and even if they do---they can't go much further because of the hurdles in their way or they are too far behind the curve to make anything out of it.

If they would have---the pakistani commander in chief in the early 90's would not have made a fool of himself by saying that american forces will be beaten by the " Battle hardened iraqi army "---and then to re-tract his statement after 48 hours when seeing gthe damage done to the iraqis----what a goofball.

I rememebra few years ago---when I was a member at ' pakdef dot info ' a member going by the name of BOOTA MASIH and now he goes by the name of BOOTA was starting to make fun of me regarding the same issue about fiction---I couldnot reply back to him because my tenure was cut short----but seemingly he is also form the PAKISTAN MILLITARY----and it really really shocks me about the mental capabilities of the soldiers---what surprises me is the lack of exposure they allow themselevs to what is out there.

In the fiction Hunt for red oktober, the american and the russian capabilities were bared---open to everyone---but then who is effected and who is not---only those who have to live with it can know the significance ---.

You see a secret can only make an impact when disclosed---when the other person knows the value of the secret----if the opponent thinks it is a work of fiction---then there is no loss of secrecy---so a fool can live in his paradise as long as he wants to.
 
Yuan is latest class in Chinese SSKs but only issue with this class is that it is not among very matured class of Chinese subs. So, purchasing a platform this new in large quantity might not a very good idea. We certainly need a Western+Chinese mix solution here.
 
I heard that the Chinese subs don't go too far from their shores because they are accident prone. Can anyone clarify this..
 
we need other five years to order them forge it we will ge any sub till 2020
 
Hi, everyone is right in the fact that there is a lot of unknowns in regards to Chinese subs. However, China gone through 2 previous classes, the Song 039, which went through a few iterations and upgrades. Then the Yuan 039A, and now the upgraded Yuan 039B. This latest version 039B also has AIP technology from Stirling and is capable of launching cruise missiles and short range SAMs and has leveraged a lot of the Kilo 636 class sub technology. Besides, what else can the PN get its hands on and also importantly afford. Moreover having the ability to launch sub-capable Babur LACM is key. Take care.

Chinese Navy
 
I heard that the Chinese subs don't go too far from their shores because they are accident prone. Can anyone clarify this..

very true for the older ships, for instance the xia ssbn is estimated to have never gone outside of Chinese terrestrial waters, the ming and han subs were also problematic. however the newer ships in service, such as the song/yuan have been going around the area and actually post a credible threat to other naval powers though the older subs that remain in survice and been modernized but there is only so much one can do with an old hull, in terms of destroyers and other surface ships, the older ships frankly werent very well built and supplies and communication were a problem when operating far from chinese shores, however today large numbers of these older outdated ship have either been retired or now serves as coastal defense ships, the newer ships obviously are very capable of long distance deployment as shown by the anti-piracy missions
 
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