'Pakistan at disadvantage to maintain military balance'

[Keysersoze]

keys

What are you talking about the J-10, You clean and finish up the chinese order book, then talk about it being exported. AESA is not offered to the Pakistani's, Where are you basing all this ridicolous claims

ok....go back and re-read what I posted........It says WITHOUT AESA.

If China did not have the ability to sell something anytime soon why would they offer it? If Pak could not buy it then I would be talking about some other aircraft or more F-16's.
With that line of thought Russia would not have sold the T-90's to India because they had to re-equip their own tank units.........(but money talks right?)

My source is a Pakistani who used to work with Lockheed (re: the f-16 info)

 

[Keysersoze]

you are wrong in the case of F-7's; the only Aircraft with BVR that too limited is the Mirage III with the ROSE upgrade,but they dont have the Missiles for it, India is equipped with the Kyopo Radar with R-77 and Israeli Jammers. It is a pretty well known issue. I suggest you read up on it.
India Doesnt Use 100 GUNS Soviet Policy, But in any case Most troops are in the frontline's itself, SO the Most guns doesnt become a liability as they are already there and no need of transport. The Replacements of Mig-21 in India are the LCA, and for the Mig 23/27 are the MMRCA hopefully the F-18 Super Hornet or the Mig-29. We already have a 66 Mig-29 being currently modified to SMT and 54 Mirage 2000H to be modified to the 2005-9. Su-30MKI is now at 50 numbers, with an additional 40 on Order, end of the production line to be at 230 in numbers/At the same time Pakistan is only expecting the JF-17 which is most likely under delay and the F-16. Phalcon AWACS as well as our Indegenious AEW mounted on the Embraer.THe list goes on such as Air-Air refuelers, Satellites dedicated to the Airforce

Ok I have recently hit a bit of a goldmine of information that has reinforced what i have been saying for most of this thread.....


Ok I was wrong about the F-7's (vaguely remembered something regarding a grifo radar that was incorrect.) Anyway the F-16 will have the AMRAAM, the Chinese designed aircraft will have the SD-10 and there is always the option of the Mica for the Mirages..(which was being looked at around 2004 timeframe.) So I guess the lack of BVR is no longer an issue.

I reiterate apart from the F-16 and the Jf-17 there will be another aircraft inducted. It was the primary reason that the number of F-16's was reduced.
You have been taking me to task regarding the fact that China will fill it's own requirements (for any J-10 sales) before selling to Pak. I disagree with that theory. but to be honest it will be a moot point as the Indian tender process seems to be excruciatingly slow.

You forgot of course the 6-8 erieye (which is a AWACS not just a AEW btw)
http://products.saab.se/PDBWeb/ShowProduct.aspx?ProductId=1190&MoreInfo=true
and of course the P3 based E2c2000's
http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2007/Pakistan_07-03.pdf
Neo has just mentione the Air to air refuellers from Ukraine.

The MRCA deal is actually a bit of a win win situation for Pak because India will definitely piss someone off.

 

[Keysersoze]

Thanks.

IA MBT List says 1950 T-72M1, the last production year was 97-98 when 92 were produced.

126 Arjun Tank

T 90 - 310+330+1000

• 100 in CKD kits,90 in CKD kits and 120 complete were delivered by 2006.
• In 27 October 2006, that the Indian Army signed yet another deal - worth US $800 million - for 330 T-90S MBTs from Russia.
• In July 2006 another $2.5Bn deal to manufacture 1000 T-90 was placed. First batch of 300 is to be completed by 2010.

T-55 numbering 550 and 800 Vijayanta have been or being phased out by max 2008.

Now that makes 1000+330+310+1950 tanks with a T-19/T-72M1 mix.

Here's something to consider Bull......apparently some beancounter in your procurement dept didn't spring for AC on the systems.......
Apparently because of the turret size issues it is very hard to retro fit the AC units to the T-90 Tanks. They apparently had the same issue with the Arjun.

http://www.ibnlive.com/news/india-to...24747-3-1.html

Delivery of T-90S kits from Russia, Jane's adds, would "speed up" the fielding of new MBTs as assembly using Indian-made components is more time consuming.

But army officers complained that the existing T-90S tanks faced "recurring" technical problems which were adversely impinging on the force's operational preparedness.

Senior armoured corps officers said the Catherine thermal imaging (TI) camera supplied by Thales of France that is the "heart" of the T-90S' fire control system (FCS) had "repeatedly malfunctioned" in the excessive summer heat of the western Rajasthan desert where the MBTs frequently exercise and will eventually be deployed.

Officers operating the tanks said temperatures in excess of 60 degrees Celsius inside the tank had rendered between 80-90 FCS "unserviceable" over the past four years. Attempts to rectify them had so far largely proven unsuccessful.

In one armoured regiment in Punjab, an alarming 30 of 40 tanks were "off-road", lamented an officer, declining to be named.

In keeping with the army's qualitative staff requirement for the T-90S MBT that stipulated a "longer range, shimmerless" sight, Peling of Belarus with its IG 46 sight entered into partnership with Thales to integrate its Catherine TI camera thereby giving the FCS a range of around three kilometres. The FCS components were "mated" by the manufacturers at the T-90S Nizhny Tagil factory in the Urals in Russia.

When problems first began to emerge in 2003 with the TI camera - priced at around Rs.20 million ($444,444) per unit, a fifth of each tanks cost of Rs.117.5 million - they were replaced as the T-90S were under warranty till March 2004.

Thereafter, with the warranty having ended, the army has grudgingly conceded that it is looking to "rectify" the FCS problem, but has not yet come up with a viable solution.

Army chief Gen J.J. Singh recently declared that the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) was considering proposals to "partially" air-condition the T-90S to overcome the overheating problem. But he did not elaborate as to how a cooling plant could be successfully engineered into the tank without undertaking major structural changes.

The T-90S licensed production that was to commence at HVF in 2006 has also been "considerably" deferred, armament industry officials said.

This was due partly to engineering problems encountered in locally assembling the MBTs, but principally because of integrating the Catherine TI camera with the 1G 46 sight.

The first locally assembled T-90S tanks began rolling out of the HVF in January 2004, but within a short period they too faced FCS problems in hot temperatures.

Ammunition for the T-90S is also posing a major problem.

Initially, the T-90S fired Russian-made AMK-338 and AMK-339 rounds, but these were soon exhausted in training and presently the tanks are without any ammunition as their 125 mm smoothbore guns have not yet been configured to fire the locally manufactured AMK-340 rounds.

Production of the MBT's 9M119 Refleks (NATO designation AT-11 Sniper) missiles by the state-owned Bharat Dynamics at Hyderabad in southern India that was scheduled to begin earlier this year is also behind schedule as several test firings have been unsuccessful. Russian technicians have been called in to assist.

Alongside, armoured corps officers said the T-90S had been "overexposed" in exercises "to suit the individual whims of senior commanders" anxious to show off the new tank and were already in need of major overhauls.

Each tank has a maximum life of 650 cycles on the onboard rev-counter with static running equalling one rev per hour while travelling 17.5 km equalled one rev. But, in less than four years, most of the T-90S tanks had completed 600 revs.

Army officers also bemoaned the shortage of T 90 simulators of which there were only five at present, in order to extend the MBT's operational longevity.

"Given the army's over emphasis on low intensity conflict the long term armour induction policy and related modernisation programmes have slipped badly," said Brig Arun Sahgal, a former armoured corps officer now with the United Services Institute. This bodes ill for its overall fighting capability, he added.

The army aims on eventually equipping its 58 armoured regiments with T-90S tanks and upgraded Ajeya T 72Mis fitted with full and partial solution FCS, explosive reactive armour, land navigation systems, frequency hopping radio sets and advanced nuclear, biological and chemical equipment to keep them in service till 2015 -20.

 

[Keysersoze]

No match i would say, numbers wise.



126 MRCA + 230 MKI and 52 F-16 blk 52 and 200 JF-17. ( No J-10 there is no order placed yet, at best speculation. So dont count that)

Ok I made the error of only placing the new purchases with the artillery. I will get a larger breakdown of all the comparable assets.

And if I can't use the J-10 then you can't use the MRCA as there is no order placed there yet either

 

[Contrarian]

Yes, but we KNOW for certain about the MRCA, hell we even know which of the two planes will be bought, on the other side, though J-10 is a likely probable, Pakistan does not have any idea as to when it will get it. China has committed heavily to buy J-10, thus the lines will be full with PLAAF orders. The thing is that J-10 will come to PAF after a long time indeed.

Pakistan cannot even have J-10 assembly lines in Pakistan itself, as it is committed to having JF-17 in good numbers and has ToT for it probably. Pakistan does not have the capacity to run two aircraft production lines simultaneously. So all planes will come from China, and that is some way off.

Lets compare current numbers Key,

1. 230 Su-30MKI,
2. 50 Mirage 2005 with some components of Rafale(plus the fact that IAF is looking to procure some second hand Mirage 2005's from many countries),
3. 65 MiG 29 SMT

These are the top-of-the-line planes for IAF.

For PAF
1.70-80 F-16's lk 52

Now please tell me, do you call this any sort of competition??

Let compare future specs of IAF and PAF

For IAF

1. 126 MRCA( It will be superior even to the Su-30MKI)
2. 230 Su-30MKI
3.50 Mirage 2005
4. 65 MiG 29 SMT
5. Phalcon AWACS
6. A2A Refueling

For PAF
1.70-80 F-16
2.100 -150 JF-17
3.Erieye AEW&C
5.A2A Refuelling

Now, lets forget the refueling, do you in any way doubt that Phalcon is far superior to the Erieye??
Do you think that JF-17 can match MiG 29SMT? Dont give me the 'erieye + JF-17 data linked' stuff, cuz every damn plane in IAF will also be linked with the Phalcon, that decidedly has more range than the Eri-eye.
JF-17 is a medium tech plane according to PAF itself, its just meant for numbers, it is not the frontline fighter, its akin to LCA(equivalent to Gripen), though inferior in specs to it.

If you start counting the J-10, then i'l start countring the LCA, as 24 F-404IN20 engines have already been ordered for 1 squadron of planes. And i confirmed in AI that around 150-200 LCA's will be inducted by the IAF.

 

[Keysersoze]

Yes, but we KNOW for certain about the MRCA, hell we even know which of the two planes will be bought, on the other side, though J-10 is a likely probable, Pakistan does not have any idea as to when it will get it. China has committed heavily to buy J-10, thus the lines will be full with PLAAF orders. The thing is that J-10 will come to PAF after a long time indeed.

Pakistan cannot even have J-10 assembly lines in Pakistan itself, as it is committed to having JF-17 in good numbers and has ToT for it probably. Pakistan does not have the capacity to run two aircraft production lines simultaneously. So all planes will come from China, and that is some way off.

Lets compare current numbers Key,

1. 230 Su-30MKI,
2. 50 Mirage 2005 with some components of Rafale(plus the fact that IAF is looking to procure some second hand Mirage 2005's from many countries),
3. 65 MiG 29 SMT

These are the top-of-the-line planes for IAF.

For PAF
1.70-80 F-16's lk 52

Now please tell me, do you call this any sort of competition??

Let compare future specs of IAF and PAF

For IAF

1. 126 MRCA( It will be superior even to the Su-30MKI)
2. 230 Su-30MKI
3.50 Mirage 2005
4. 65 MiG 29 SMT
5. Phalcon AWACS
6. A2A Refueling

For PAF
1.70-80 F-16
2.100 -150 JF-17
3.Erieye AEW&C
5.A2A Refuelling

Now, lets forget the refueling, do you in any way doubt that Phalcon is far superior to the Erieye??
Do you think that JF-17 can match MiG 29SMT? Dont give me the 'erieye + JF-17 data linked' stuff, cuz every damn plane in IAF will also be linked with the Phalcon, that decidedly has more range than the Eri-eye.
JF-17 is a medium tech plane according to PAF itself, its just meant for numbers, it is not the frontline fighter, its akin to LCA(equivalent to Gripen), though inferior in specs to it.

If you start counting the J-10, then i'l start countring the LCA, as 24 F-404IN20 engines have already been ordered for 1 squadron of planes. And i confirmed in AI that around 150-200 LCA's will be inducted by the IAF.

Ok now.....I have it on good authority that the order for remainder of the aircraft (J-10) will be placed after the MRCA order is placed by India. Now both adux and Malay have given the whole "PLAAF will fill it's orders before exporting" reason that I can't count these aircraft.
Now the U.S. DOD reported that China was looking at 1200 of these aircraft (j-10)
So I am afraid your argument is spurious. China could spend 1 year building the requirement for the PAF (their current rate is approx 60 per year with the three production lines at CAC) and then carry on building the huge amount required for their own airforce. Since there is a quite good relationship between the two nations It is not too difficult to imagine.
Also both Adux and Malay have also used the "if you are going to use that then I am going to use plane "x"" Well lets look at the 2 planes they are refering too.
PAK_FA- a plane still in development.........
and let us not forget the Tejas (equivalent to Gripen )........rather than go into this I will post two Indian reports regarding this. (I will use subsequent post for these) So far the orders =20
Also it would redundant to point out that the JF-17 and J-10 ARE in production. having cleared all testing phases. The same cannot be claimed of the two you mention.

Ah yes the 3-Phalcons (I haven't seen the deal for the next 3 yet) well they may well have longer range but I suggest you guys take a look at a map again. Look at the respective sizes of both nations and the area needing coverage. the 10 AWACS systems (7 Erieye and 3 Hawkeye 2000) are more than enough from a capability and maintenance point of view. As for the indigenous program.......not holding my breath..........

SO lets take another look
70-80 f-16
150 jf-17
40-50 (J-10 or equivalent)
7-Erieye
3-hawkeye2000

Vs
MKI -180-190
MRCA-126
Mirage 2005-50
Mig29smt-65
Phalcon-3-6

And in the event of there being hostilities I doubt all of those aircraft would be stacked up on the border. At least some of them would be diverted to protect important resources in other parts of the country. I think the PAF would be able to hold its own......

 

[Keysersoze]

23 yrs and first fighter aircraft hasn’t taken off
AMITAV RANJAN / Siv Aroor
Posted online: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 at 0000 hrs Print Email
LCA: By its new deadline 2010 (thrice revised), project would have cost Rs 4000 crore extra; radar, engine still not in place, IAF says it’s not ready to certify LCA’s technology until 2008 clearance

New Delhi, November 14: At its last meeting in December 2005, the General Body of the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), the society developing the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, recorded one fact: the Indian Air Force, despite official plans to ultimately buy 220 LCAs, would order only 20 aircraft.



And that the IAF had refused to push the order up until it’s convinced that the new 2010 deadline, the project’s third consecutive time over-run, would be met.

The IAF had more than a reason.

According to latest official figures that will shortly be tabled by the Standing Committee on Defence in a report for Parliament, available with The Indian Express, DRDO’s 23-year-old indigenous fighter aircraft programme, taken as a whole — including the radar, jet engine and Naval variant — would have wiped away a minimum of Rs 9444.5 crore by 2010. Aggregate cost over-run: Rs 4,094 crore. Delay: 12.5 years and counting.

By DRDO’s own testimony in June to the same committee, there are still “certain complexities,” although it claims it will produce the 20 LCAs on order from the IAF by December 2011. But that would still be understandable if the LCA was in any way ready.

Five months after the ADA meeting, Air chief S P Tyagi communicated in no uncertain terms to then Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee that his force could not depend on the programme in the short term. Shortly thereafter, he told The Indian Express: “We have to see if it is a suitably modern aircraft when it is complete. Right now we just cannot take any decisions. We can only wait for initial operational clearance (in 2008).”

The implication: the IAF is not sure if the LCA would have slipped down a few generations by the time it’s inducted. But the Standing Committee only had this to say: “The Committee are constrained to note that, keeping in view the ever-increasing delay in operational clearance of LCA, early induction of the same as IAF squadrons seems to be an unrealistic proposition.”

Just how unrealistic it is is something that has come to characterize the LCA programme ever since its inception in August 1983, and culminating now in a gravely unready fighter aircraft that the IAF could have no choice but to induct in large numbers from 2012.

Consider the following: Despite a battery of nine test pilots who have been embedded with the LCA programme, the IAF has refused to officially certify any technological aspect of the LCA apart from its structural strength, until initial operational clearance (IOC). Air Headquarters said so, in a written reply to this newspaper. The clearance should have been achieved by 2007 but its new schedule is 2008.

After a four-year wait following the rollout of the LCA technology demonstrator in 1997 for a first flight, former Air chief S Krishnaswamy made out an official case in 2003 for a “limited series induction” of the aircraft to give the IAF a chance to familiarize itself. He told The Indian Express, “The LCA is not full in any way, each prototype is different. I was a staunch supporter of indigenisation but am also very critical. How long can you keep on developing a product?”

The eight promised Limited Series Production fighters, envisaged as a part of the Rs 3,301.78 crore second phase of the programme, are nowhere in sight. The LCA, which should have undergone weapons trials by 2003, will now only undergo “dummy” trials in December 2007 according to DRDO chief M Natarajan, putting a big question mark on the possibility of IOC by 2008.

The real problem: the HAL-DRDO multi-mode radar, the very brain that will guide the LCA’s weapons, is not ready. After spending Rs 166.8 crore since 1997, HAL has decided to bring in a foreign technical partner to bail it out. The radar has been tested on an HS-748 Avro, but persistent problems with software and its signal processor have forced HAL and DRDO to admit their failure.

DRDO has justified the delays and their impact on the IAF’s preparedness by pointing to a revision of the development strategy because of a foreign exchange shortage in the 1990s, US sanctions, re-designing composite wings for weapon definition after January 2004 and extensive on-ground and independent evaluation.

After a cost and time overrun of Rs 2,456 crore and 13 years since 1996, DRDO admitted to the Standing Committee in June that it could complete the Kaveri engine only under a foreign joint venture. Problems that have crippled the Kaveri, according to the latest DRDO testimony, include critical glitches in aerodynamic, aero-mechanical, combustion and structural integrity.

Most significantly, DRDO has admitted to the Committee that to improve performance and safety issues, a JV could be attempted. Former DRDO chief V K Aatre said: “When I retired (in August 2004), there were some loose ends in the programme involving the radar and jet engine. But I am surprised they have still not been resolved.”

The DRDO was pulled up in January by the Standing Committee to explain how the LCA’s delays would impact the IAF’s modernization. Their reply: “IAF only can state the possible impact of delay on modernization exclusively due to LCA.”

But at Air HQ, an unofficial and approximate damage analysis of the LCA’s delay, shared with The Indian Express, is to the tune of Rs 11,440 crore in forced upgrades (some variants of the MiG-21 that the LCA was to replace will be forced to serve till 2019-2021 at least) and stop-gap acquisitions.

This does not include the purchase of 126 fighters potentially worth Rs 30,000 crore that the IAF will shortly begin an acquisition process for. In an unusual move, the Naval LCA will use air data systems from Russia’s state-owned Rosobornexport, which will also create a shore-based test facility for the Rs 948.90 crore development. MiG Corporation will conduct a design review and be DRDO’s chief consultant.

 

[Keysersoze]

Introduction

The recent news, curiously enough reported only by ¹Calcutta telegraph to best of my knowlede, that the Kaveri engine being built to power the Tejas LCA had failed in high altitude simulation test on the ground was a disappointment. However, it was not a surprise. Bangalore based Gas Turbine and Research Organization, GTRE, has in the past failed to deliver on the HJE-2500 engine for the Kiran jet trainer or come up with anything credible when the Maruts languished for want of a suitable engine during the 70s. Its ability to come up with a GE F404 replacement was suspect at the very best, more likely quixotic.

²Air Chief Marshal S. Krishnaswamy on October 6 acknowledged the setback in Kaveri development when he recommended a mid-term quality review of the Kaveri aero-engine

As part of my research on strategic affairs I frequent numerous web sites that focus on India's emergence as a military power. The enthusiasm expressed on most such forums by young Indians for Defense Research Projects managed by the DRDO, such as the LCA, Arjun MBT and the Brahmos is gratifying. Unfortunately, there is no similar enthusiasm for DRDO products within the defense forces. The IAF is not as thrilled as the young people on these forums about the proposed induction of the LCA. Clearly, there is a serious disconnect and I will attempt to address in these columns in the coming days.
The Marut (HF-24) Experience

The Marut was the first fighter designed and produced in India. The legendary Dr Kurt Tank, of Focke Wolf 191 fame, led the team of aircraft designers in the 1950s to produce what was an excellent airframe. However, from its inception right upto its retirement in 1980, the Marut lacked a suitable power plant.

The Marut saga is a story of dismal project management and illustrates the inordinate sway of the Indian Defense Research Establishment over critical defense procurement decisions.

This aircraft D-1256 in a museum called Flugwerft Oberschleißheim near Munich. I think I have flown this one too but am not sure.The Indian Air Force was never enthusiastic about inducting it. The aircraft's combat performance was dismal and so was its weapon load. Its high pressure hydraulic system was prone to frequent failures and its canopy and ejection systems had serious defects. During its short service life the Marut fleet was grounded for many months on many occasions.

The Maruts participated in the 1971 war but accomplished little more than pin prick strikes thanks to their limited payload. Their ability to fly at over 600 K at tree top levels, however, stood them in good stead and helped them escape attacking Sabres. Indeed, during the 1970s the three Marut squadrons operated by the IAF were more cause for worry to the Air Marhsals of the IAF than the Air Marhsals of the PAF.

I started my career in the IAF as a Marut pilot (1975-1980) and flew nearly 700 hrs on it. I had the dubious distinction of participating in its decommissioning in 1980 when the Air Force finally decided to give up on it. One of my last sorties on the Marut was a flight to Kanpur to deliver a spanking new aircraft to Kanpur for cocooning.

It was only when I went to Jaguars that I understood how potent a fighter jet could be just as how much more fun flying a fighter could be.

The point that I am trying to make here is that for good reason the IAF has not been happy with what the Defense Research Establishment in India has had to offer. The Marut is just one of the examples. I am aware of more. This is not to suggest that the IAF is not appreciative of the effort to indigenize. It is, but its responsibility to procure the best weapon systems within our limited resources is greater.
Tejas – Too Little Too Late

Tejas TD-1 and TD-2The recent news stories on the Kaveri engine setback should prompt some introspection – Is the Tejas going the Marut way? Will it be rammed down the IAF's throat by the Defense Research Establishment just as the Marut was nearly 40 years ago? Doing so may serve national pride but it will certainly not serve national defense.

Pressure is being brought on the IAF to commit in large numbers to the Tejas. What does the IAF really know about Tejas that will enthuse it to commit to it? The fact that it uses FBW technology? That is history…40 years old history. Besides, it is not FBW that combat pilot seek it is maneuverability that comes from it. Or better still the super maneuverability that comes from thrust vectoring and extremely high thrust to weight ratios. In addition our pilots need stealth. They do not want to be knocked out of the skies by BVR missiles that are now widely available. The Tejas has very little to offer in the areas of high thrust to weight ratios, thrust vectoring and stealth.

Clearly ADA has taken too long to develop the Tejas. A 20 years lead time to develop a fighter aircraft is unrealistic. I have seen attempts to refute this contention through suggestions that the F-22 Raptor too has not yet been inducted in large numbers by the USAF despite having taken to the skies over a decade back. However, such suggestions are misleading. Delay in the induction of the Raptor are due to the fact that the US Congress is not yet convinced that the threat that the Raptor is designed to address really exists. In the case of the IAF, the threat that the LCA was conceived to address existed right through the 80s and 90s. However, the LCA remained on the drawing boards and consequently the threat was never addressed. Five years from now, if the LCA is indeed available for induction, the type of threat that the IAF will face is not something that the Tejas was conceived to address.

Having said the above, let me state unequivocally, that delays not withstanding, I am proud of what the ADA has achieved and I think the whole nation should be. I for one do not doubt that the Tejas will one day impress the IAF enough to be inducted. However, what I am objecting to here is the possibility that the IAF's punch is compromised by its wait for the Tejas. That is not fair to the brave fighters who defend our skies just as it is not fair to the taxpayers who fund the defense budget in the belief that the nation's armed foreces get the best equipment possible to fight with.

Even if the Tejas is not inducted into the IAF it will be an achievement that the nation could be proud of. Pure technology development figher aircraft are not uncommen. The Russian Berkut Su-37 and MiG 35 are examples. India needs to fund defense research and development so that we are not dependent on other nations for our security. It is my contention that ADA must be paid by the nation for their excellent effort through the budget of the DRDO not the IAF.

If and when the Tejas is ready for induction it is important that the IAF must have a choice whether to induct it or not. It is equally important that ADA must be encouraged to move on to a stealthy and super maoneuverable derivative of the Tejas

PS I report on Defence matters because India s

 

[EagleEyes]

Lets get realistic. 5 Oranges VS 3 Apples. You guys talk like if the war is going to occur on the papers. Your just going to move all the planes infront of the others. The whole event is more than that. It will be horrible, will take millions of lives. Lets not kid ourselves on the internet. If one really thinks that 1 Su-30MKI will match another JF-17 in the real war scenerio one-on-one and no other factors would come into play, then your still in cyber gaming.

 

[Contrarian]

Ok now.....I have it on good authority that the order for remainder of the aircraft (J-10) will be placed after the MRCA order is placed by India. Now both adux and Malay have given the whole "PLAAF will fill it's orders before exporting" reason that I can't count these aircraft.
Now the U.S. DOD reported that China was looking at 1200 of these aircraft (j-10)

Agreed, then i should say i really am relieved, i thought Pakistan was waiting to order some Typhoons in response to MRCA! thank god its J-10!

Now Key, you do realise, that the current J-10's are said to be very close to the F-16 blk 40. It is a new a/c and thus has a huge potential to grow, but at present its capabilities are near that. Now the MRCA will be even superior to the Su-30MKI, do you think that J-10 can in a one on one, match the MRCA ie the MiG 35MKI?? It would be far below the Su-30MKI, forget the MRCA...

Let us forget the argument that they will not be delivered on Pakistan's required time schedule. Let just compare numbers and the technology.

Also both Adux and Malay have also used the "if you are going to use that then I am going to use plane "x"" Well lets look at the 2 planes they are refering too.
PAK_FA- a plane still in development.........

Yes, it is, and its final flight is to be before 2009, that is its deadline. This is not ADA that it will take 20 years to make a plane. I think the deadline will be more than met. Its safe to say, T-50 will start getting inducted before 2015.

and let us not forget the Tejas (equivalent to Gripen )........rather than go into this I will post two Indian reports regarding this. (I will use subsequent post for these) So far the orders =20

Yes, but the news you have posted is old news. The Kauvery issue is over, the engine is not ready, thus the american F-404IN20 engine will be used. This engine is the highest development of the F-404 engine family till date. Its the very best available in the series and has 20% more thrust than the F-404. Tejas is already ordered for 1 squadron, more will follow.

Tejas has at present more than 35% composites, it is planned to have 45%, do you realise how important this is? Do you realise how little the RCS of the LCA would be? It would be a damn stealthy plane.

Also it would redundant to point out that the JF-17 and J-10 ARE in production. having cleared all testing phases. The same cannot be claimed of the two you mention.

I agree for the JF-17, till the time Pakistan atleast says officially that they are in negotiations, i think its safe to say , we leave J-10 till then.
Now onto JF-17, you are aware of the problem of engines in that. I would not say that JF-17 are in production for Pakistan as yet.

Ah yes the 3-Phalcons (I haven't seen the deal for the next 3 yet) well they may well have longer range but I suggest you guys take a look at a map again. Look at the respective sizes of both nations and the area needing coverage. the 10 AWACS systems (7 Erieye and 3 Hawkeye 2000) are more than enough from a capability and maintenance point of view.

The loiter time, the sensors, the range, of Phalcon far exceed the Eri-eye, its quite like the same difference between a medium and a heavy fighter plane.
Also Eri-eye will have around 7 workstations or 10 will PAF really stuffs it, Phalcon will have 24 workstations easy. You realise the importance of workstations? They directly effect the performance of the AWAC, from the number of intercepts, etc, etc being carried out. Phalcon is out of the league of Eri-eye.

As for the indigenous program.......not holding my breath..........

Neither am I, but apparently the development is going well, however it is pointless to comment on it.

SO lets take another look
70-80 f-16
150 jf-17
40-50 (J-10 or equivalent)
7-Erieye
3-hawkeye2000

Vs
MKI -180-190
MRCA-126
Mirage 2005-50
Mig29smt-65
Phalcon-3-6

Actually its a CONFIRMED 230 Su-30MKI planes.So lets see again:
70-80 f-16
150 jf-17
40-50 (J-10 or equivalent)
7-Erieye
3-hawkeye2000

Vs
Su-30MKI -230
MRCA-126
Mirage 2005-50
Mig29smt-65
LCA-50
Phalcon-3-6

And if you really are putting J-10 in it, then i would add LCA too, atleast 50 planes will be operational by 2015.

Now every plane on the Indian side is technologically superior to the plane Pakistan has to counter it. Think about it, every single plane in IAF is superior to its counterpart in PAF. Even look at LCA, on PAPER(bear in mind, this is paper, and it may be differnt when its operational) is superior to the JF-17.

MiG 35 will be superior to even the Su-30MKI, MiG 35 is a f*cking BEAST, and PAF does not have anything to counter even the Su-30MKI, the nearest being F-16 blk 52.

MiG 35 will have AESA, etc, etc, the whole works dude, you know about it, it will be India's TOP OF THE LINE fighter plane. Pakistan is yet to get something to counter the Su-30MKI.

You know that to counter superior numbers, one must have superior technology. But PAF does not have either numbers or technology. Every single plane in IAF is superior to what the PAF will field against it, and in more numbers. How do you think PAF will hold out??

And imagine, by 2015, when there will be decent numbers of MiG 35MKI, then T-50 will also start getting inducted. Does this give you any idea of IAF plans??
First they get Su-30MKI, then within so short a time, they are getting a plane superior to that, the MiG 35MKI, and then again in a very short time, they will start getting the T-50. By 2015, the situation for PAF will be very bad. Oh and i forgot, by 2015, there will be the LCA too to match the JF-17.

And in the event of there being hostilities I doubt all of those aircraft would be stacked up on the border. At least some of them would be diverted to protect important resources in other parts of the country. I think the PAF would be able to hold its own......

In the event of a war mate, most of the a/c being diverted to the Northern and North Western front, with only a token force remaining in the rest of the country! Every other plane will be on forward base ready to attack. This argument is a no-go, this is true in peace time, when the concentration of planes will be low in any single area. But in war time, the only place from where there can be an invasion is the west, every plane will be there, PAF will not be able to enter at all in India, whereas there would be MASSIVE and i mean MASSIVE numbers of planes going from India for ops in Pakistan.

 

[Keysersoze]

Lets get realistic. 5 Oranges VS 3 Apples. You guys talk like if the war is going to occur on the papers. Your just going to move all the planes infront of the others. The whole event is more than that. It will be horrible, will take millions of lives. Lets not kid ourselves on the internet. If one really thinks that 1 Su-30MKI will match another JF-17 in the real war scenerio one-on-one and no other factors would come into play, then your still in cyber gaming.

You are right of course webby.....My original point was aimed at The Pakistani's who think it is some sort of race and we have to keep up with our neighbours.
I think Pak is not falling as far behind as some would have you think..





Besides......you never said if the were Russian oranges v American apples......

 

[Contrarian]

Lets get realistic. 5 Oranges VS 3 Apples. You guys talk like if the war is going to occur on the papers. Your just going to move all the planes infront of the others. The whole event is more than that. It will be horrible, will take millions of lives. Lets not kid ourselves on the internet. If one really thinks that 1 Su-30MKI will match another JF-17 in the real war scenerio one-on-one and no other factors would come into play, then your still in cyber gaming.

lool, true mate!

 

[Keysersoze]

Actually I should make a correction here.....I only mentioned one plane in the later acquisition's (J-10). It does include a few European contenders. As I said they are biding their time till the MRCA deal is signed before deciding.

 

[Keysersoze]

Well I will be getting out of my armchair soon.....I have a major posting coming up soon........

 

[Contrarian]

Well I will be getting out of my armchair soon.....I have a major posting coming up soon........

cant wait btw i admire how you post everything in a sequential order, replying one thing after another!! I cant do it for the love of my life LOL!