Pakistan Army's VT-4 Main Battle Tank | Updates & Discussions

[lcloo]

Can AK2 become a version of VT4?

Since AK-2 is not finalised yet, absorbing the best of VT-4 design into AK-2's final version, i.e. combining the best of the two into one, would be a smart move.

 

[iLION12345_1]

Since AK-2 is not finalised yet, absorbing the best of VT-4 design into AK-2's final version, i.e. combining the best of the two into one, would be a smart move.

There are already certain similarities between the two as VT-4 in a way is an evolution of the AK platform; but changing the base design of a tank is not easy work, like the hull or the turret design, while certain parts could be carried over from each tank to the other, Wether they want to redesign the AK2 to make it closer to the VT4 would depend on how much time they’re willing to take to continue the design phase and redo it, and we don’t really what decision they’ll make in this regard. They could keep AK-2 completely independent, increase interchangeability between the two, or just redesign AK-2 to be closer to VT-4.

One thing they might consider is Powerpacks, AK-2 could do with a more powerful engine IMO. Like a 1500HP one. But they’d need to redesign engine bay for that, not that it’s current engine isn’t good enough.

 

[ghazi52]

A nice picture.

 

[syed_yusuf]

A nice picture.

View attachment 733247

Smart tank. I have been comparing Pakistani vt4 to other 4th gen tank specs. Could not find much difference. Please correct me

 

[Raja Porus]

Smart tank. I have been comparing Pakistani vt4 to other 4th gen tank specs. Could not find much difference. Please correct me

All current tanks ( with the exception of Armata) are 3rd gen.

 

[IblinI]

All current tanks ( with the exception of Armata) are 3rd gen.

Armata with early 10s tech trees aren't qualify for the definition of next gen battle tank.
The rus are a bit hasty there.
As far as I know about our project, it contains element like ETC/electromagnetic gun, low profile with two men crew, electro reactive armor..etc, and this isn't anything in the far future but within this decade.

 

[vi-va]

All current tanks ( with the exception of Armata) are 3rd gen.

Armata is bad design, even Russian didn't equip those tanks. It will take another 10 years or so to see next generation tanks.

 

[obj 705A]

Armata is bad design, even Russian didn't equip those tanks. It will take another 10 years or so to see next generation tanks.

It's probably the most advanced tank mankind has seen that is currently available, the reason why they are not aquiring it is because they have no money, this is what always happens with them, they spend alot of time and money developing weapons and then when the time comes to buy them they find out they can't afford, the T-14 was supposed to cost just 3.7$ million but the real unit cost ended being much higher than that. In any case they say this time they will recieve it either at the end of 2021or 2022 so let's see whether that would be the case or due to budget limits they would delay it further. Buying 100 of them in one year would cost several hundreds of millions of $, so you never know they may again decide to delay it in favor of using the money to buy another submarine or something.

As far as I know about our project, it contains element like ETC/electromagnetic gun, low profile with two men crew, electro reactive armor..etc, and this isn't anything in the far future but within this decade.

Wait that is the first time this tank was mentioned here, the tank you are talking about is obviously not the Type 99 what is your source for this news?

 

[IblinI]

It's probably the most advanced tank mankind has seen that is currently available, the reason why they are not aquiring it is because they have no money, this is what always happens with them, they spend alot of time and money developing weapons and then when the time comes to buy them they find out they can't afford, the T-14 was supposed to cost just 3.7$ million but the real unit cost ended being much higher than that. In any case they say this time they will recieve it either at the end of 2021or 2022 so let's see whether that would be the case or due to budget limits they would delay it further. Buying 100 of them in one year would cost several hundreds of millions of $, so you never know they may again decide to delay it in favor of using the money to buy another submarine or something.



Wait that is the first time this tank was mentioned here, the tank you are talking about is obviously not the Type 99 what is your source for this news?

from Mao ming,the chief designer of 99A's 2015 magazine interview, he stated it was no more a concept.

 

[vi-va]

It's probably the most advanced tank mankind has seen that is currently available, the reason why they are not aquiring it is because they have no money, this is what always happens with them, they spend alot of time and money developing weapons and then when the time comes to buy them they find out they can't afford, the T-14 was supposed to cost just 3.7$ million but the real unit cost ended being much higher than that. In any case they say this time they will recieve it either at the end of 2021or 2022 so let's see whether that would be the case or due to budget limits they would delay it further. Buying 100 of them in one year would cost several hundreds of millions of $, so you never know they may again decide to delay it in favor of using the money to buy another submarine or something.



Wait that is the first time this tank was mentioned here, the tank you are talking about is obviously not the Type 99 what is your source for this news?

If Armata is the best tank,

1. why Russia is buying infrared sensors from France Thales? After sanction, Russia turn to China for infrared sensor.
2. Russia APFSDS is weaker than western/China, this is well known.
3. Russia engine and transmission is not as good as Germany nor Chinese.
4. Just take a look at VT-4, auto transmission, torque converter.
5. Last but not least, China has better armor as well.

All in all, China has better electronic, better power pack, better APFSDS, and better armor.

Armata is on trial, not a mature design at all. Armata is far from best tank in the world if you are serious tank fan.

Btw, I am not against Russia nor Russian. I am just listing the facts.

 

[obj 705A]

Russia APFSDS is weaker than western/China, this is well known.

Last but not least, China has better armor as well.

any proof for these two claims?
the Armata tank is using a new gun with new ammo, Russia is the only country which has this gun for now so how did any one evaluate the new Russian gun if no one ever touched it or saw it beside the Russians?
same thing for the armour how did any one outside Russia evaluate how effective it was? the only way to evaluate it's armour is if Russia openly stated the armour and protection values and limits of their new tank, did they do that? because if not then any attempt to evaluate armour effectiviness of a tank could and should be dismissed.

 

[iLION12345_1]

any proof for these two claims?
the Armata tank is using a new gun with new ammo, Russia is the only country which has this gun for now so how did any one evaluate the new Russian gun if no one ever touched it or saw it beside the Russians?
same thing for the armour how did any one outside Russia evaluate how effective it was? the only way to evaluate it's armour is if Russia openly stated the armour and protection values and limits of their new tank, did they do that? because if not then any attempt to evaluate armour effectiviness of a tank could and should be dismissed.

If Armata is the best tank,

1. why Russia is buying infrared sensors from France Thales? After sanction, Russia turn to China for infrared sensor.
2. Russia APFSDS is weaker than western/China, this is well known.
3. Russia engine and transmission is not as good as Germany nor Chinese.
4. Just take a look at VT-4, auto transmission, torque converter.
5. Last but not least, China has better armor as well.

All in all, China has better electronic, better power pack, better APFSDS, and better armor.

Armata is on trial, not a mature design at all. Armata is far from best tank in the world if you are serious tank fan.

Btw, I am not against Russia nor Russian. I am just listing the facts.
View attachment 733648

View attachment 733652

No idea what that guy is going off, the T-14, from what we know, is simply better than any other tank employed by any military atm, especially anything employed by China. And that’s with the little information we do have on it. It not being inducted yet has nothing to do with it not being a good tank, that’s more to do with costs and the Russian economy, in fact it’s exports variants will be in service before Russian variants due to cost reasons.
He says Russian APFSDS is not as good as Chinese one, but apart from 125-III APFSDS (who’s numbers remain classified but are likely nowhere near the best stuff fielded by the west or the Russians), all chinese APFSDS has been rather…poor for its time, since Russian and western ammo achieved those numbers 5-10 years prior.
Same with Chinese ERA. FY-4 is a generation behind what Armata and T90MS have, it is still a very good ERA. But it’s short of the best Russia has to offer.

Russians have a lot more experience buildings tanks and their parts and T-14 is solid proof of that, it’s not an untested design, because it’s not some alien tank, it’s based off 70 years of Russian tank expertise. It’s simply ahead of it’s time for the Russian economy, just like the Zummwalt destroyers were for the USA.

Also Russia has recently switched from Thales sights to its own, not went to China or France for them. Again, no idea what this guy is smoking. Also the Armata power pack itself is a generation ahead of anything fielded in China and most of what’s fielded in the west. Apart from Leo 2A7, nothing comes close to the T90MS, let alone the Armata. Even the US is designing a new, next gen tank now.
The only decent Chinese tank is the newest Type 99 variant and the VT4. And the VT4 has piss-poor firepower due to BTA-4 when compared to western and Russian ammunition. (600mm at 2km/0 deg compared to 1000+mm for both vacuum 1 and vacuum 2). It’s still very good for other countries like Pakistan or Thailand. But when compared to the stuff Germany, USA and Russia are using, it’s not even close.

 

[Dreamer.]

No idea what that guy is going off, the T-14, from what we know, is simply better than any other tank employed by any military atm, especially anything employed by China. And that’s with the little information we do have on it. It not being inducted yet has nothing to do with it not being a good tank, that’s more to do with costs and the Russian economy, in fact it’s exports variants will be in service before Russian variants due to cost reasons.
He says Russian APFSDS is not as good as Chinese one, but apart from 125-III APFSDS (who’s numbers remain classified but are likely nowhere near the best stuff fielded by the west or the Russians), all chinese APFSDS has been rather…poor. Same with Chinese ERA. FY-4 is a generation behind what Armata and T90MS have.
Russians have a lot more experience buildings tanks and their parts and T-14 is solid proof of that, it’s not an untested design, because it’s not some alien tank, it’s based off 70 years of Russian tank expertise. It’s simply ahead of it’s time for the Russian economy, just like the Zummwalt destroyers were for the USA.

Also Russia has recently switched from Thales sights to its own, not went to China or France for them. Again, no idea what this guy is smoking. Also the Armata power pack itself is a generation ahead of anything fielded in China and most of what’s fielded in the west. Apart from Leo 2A7, nothing comes close to the T90MS, let alone the Armata.
The only decent Chinese tank is the newest Type 99 variant and the VT4. And the VT4 has piss-poor firepower due to BTA-4 when compared to western and Russian ammunition. (600mm at 2km/0 deg compared to 1000+mm for both vacuum 1 and vacuum 2)

So indian tanks' firepower and protection is better than pakistan's..?

 

[iLION12345_1]

So indian tanks' firepower and protection is better than pakistan's..?

Nope, india has no “modern” Russian tanks. They use T90S, which is a base model T90 export, a decent tank, id say on Par with original AK (but not AK-1). Half of their T72s are stock, obsolete. Half have been modernized, something similar to Type 85UG. The Arjun MK-1 is a joke. The MK-1A is decent technologically, but has probably the worst gun ever on a modern MBT and very poor side and turret armor, as well as very very high weight.

The biggest issue with Indian tanks is ammo, india only recently started inducting Mango APFSDS in 2019, which is a Russian round from the 80s (having 460mm of pen/0 deg at 2KM). Most of their tanks still use even older APFSDS.

On the other hand Pakistani APFSDS (locally made one at that) had this capability in the early 2000s. Currently Pakistan uses Naiza DU on AZ and AK (550-570mm of pen/0 deg at 2km) and BTA-4 on Type 85UG, T84 and VT4 (600+ mm of pen/0deg at 2km). Far, far superior to anything india has.
BTA-4 is basically the best APFSDS China offers for export (they use 125-III themselves, which is not offered for export and is better than BTA-4, likely a bit closer to modern western/Russian rounds, but I wouldn’t say it’s better than them). BTA-4 is only average by modern Russian and western standards but for the indo-Pak theatre it is best APFSDS in service by far, followed by the Naiza DU. Tanks can always be upgraded to fire better projectiles, something Pakistan will obviously look into once needed, but there’s no need to spend that much money on these upgrades when the adversary is still that much behind.

As for protection, VT-4 is easily the most protected MBT in South Asia with its FY4 ERA. Indian tanks still use Kontakt-5, which is previous gen Russian ERA, despite their claims, they have made No armor changes to their T90S, since they simply can’t without Russian permission, something they have never gotten and often complain about. Our last tank to have previous gen ERA (the T80UD) is getting upgraded right now with Nozh, the next gen Ukrainian ERA, apart from other upgrades. While AK, AZ and Type 85UG would be equipped with Pakistani Aorak MK.2 , which itself is based on FY-3 and Nozh. The T90S likely has better base armor than all but VT-4, and due to its better ERA coverage it’s protection would be comparable to AK, even with its older ERA, but it’s falling behind in basically everything else at the moment.

If we are to classify stuff by generations, Kontakt 5 is second Gen ERA, FY4 and Nozh are basically like 3rd Gen, like Russian Relikt, which they use on T72B3, T90MS, T80BVM etc, while T-14 uses Malachit, which is 4th Gen ERA.
Same with projectiles, Though there are no actual generations for them, if BTA4 and Naiza are hypothetically “3rd Gen projectiles”, then india is still using second Gen, while Germany, USA and Russia use “4th gen” projectiles.

 

[vi-va]

any proof for these two claims?
the Armata tank is using a new gun with new ammo, Russia is the only country which has this gun for now so how did any one evaluate the new Russian gun if no one ever touched it or saw it beside the Russians?
same thing for the armour how did any one outside Russia evaluate how effective it was? the only way to evaluate it's armour is if Russia openly stated the armour and protection values and limits of their new tank, did they do that? because if not then any attempt to evaluate armour effectiviness of a tank could and should be dismissed.

It's not my responsibility to provide proof. You claim Armata is the best tank first, you should provide proof. But I can list some Russian data here, you can search around if you want to know the well known facts.

Russia APFSDS development history:

1. 3bm42
2. 3BM46 Depleted uranium
3. 3BM42M monobloc tungsten alloy rod penetrator

The one in the middle is 3BM42. No saddle-shaped sabot. Just take a look, you will know this is 10-20 years behind western one back than.

This is Russia 3BM66 and 3BM44-1, start using saddle-shaped sabot, 10-20 years behind.

Russia 3BM66 and 3BM44-1 are trying to catch up with Rheinmetall Rh-120 APFSDS

German 120mm Tank Ammunition

This blogpost takes a look at the history and specifications of German 120mm tank ammunition. It will include parts with speculative...

germanarmor.blogspot.com

Rheinmetall Rh-120 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This is Russia 2A46
Chamber pressure 500+MPA
Muzzle energy 9+MPA, far behind Chinese one which is 11+MPA

This is latest Russia APFSDS, aluminium alloy sabot. While western one and Chinese one is Carbon fiber composites.

The proof is everywhere, I think it's enough.

Basically, Russia APFSDS is 10-20 years behind, this is well known.