Pakistan Army's VT-4 Main Battle Tank | Updates & Discussions

[Farhan Bohra]

Type 85UG is better than the Al-Zarrar in nearly every metric.

There is absolutely no need for Another tank at all. The VT-4 and Al-Khalid have enough of a lead over IA tanks already, more platforms would be a massive waste of money, especially ones from the west or Turkey that don’t fit into our logistics systems at all; they can’t cross our bridges, can’t use our ammo and have no shared parts with the rest of the fleet. It’s like equipping an army with AKs and then handing an M4 to one in every 100 soldiers and expect them to be useful.

PA has enough older types to replace already, they need to spend the money to buy more VT-4s and AK-1s (Also AK-2s in the near future) in order to replace those, not buy another very expensive platform. PA also needs money for many other acquisitions that are much likely a lot higher on the priority list, like gunships, IFVs and modern APCs.

And lastly, the Altay isn’t ready, and won’t be for a few years. So let’s please not get into that. It will never serve in the PA unless we massively modify it to use existing ammo and induct an entirely new fleet of bridge layers, transport and Recovery vehicles in the PA to cater for it.

I don’t know where is the lead. When whole IA totally focused toward vertical envelopment.

But that is for the Pakistanis to analyse.

 

[iLION12345_1]

I don’t know where is the lead. When whole IA totally focused toward vertical envelopment.

But that is for the Pakistanis to analyse.

The lead is in the technological capabilities of tanks, I’ve discussed it a billion times before, you can find it on this thread and others. The average Indian tanks lags quite far behind the average Pakistani one in capability, but that’s just one metric, there’s several hundred to consider in a Pak v Ind environment, and obviously the discussion of which side has which lead is long and tedious.

 

[Signalian]

One of the best, if not the best comment I have seen on PDF. We dont have a proper or established military doctrine. This is the sad reality. We are a confused bunch of people. We must get rid of this defensive force logic. As famously said "offensive is the best defense"

Then why are there 2 x Strike Corps and why are they equipped with the top of the line tanks that PA possesses ?

 

[iLION12345_1]

One of the best, if not the best comment I have seen on PDF. We dont have a proper or established military doctrine. This is the sad reality. We are a confused bunch of people. We must get rid of this defensive force logic. As famously said "offensive is the best defense"

PAs dedicated strike corps which also happen to be the most well equipped Corps in the PA: are we a joke to you?

 

[Reichmarshal]

PA strategy is "offensive defense".

 

[Iron Shrappenel]

Yes, I know but if you pay attention carefully to the border with Pakistan/India and look into India itself its relatively flat. Kashmir is another story not much tank warfare will take place there. Central Punjab & Sindh should also be the focus to prevent Indian penetration and around Lahore, etc. There is enough utility and justification for heavy tanks.

Beg to differ... The desert might not have been the problem to begin with... It's the punjab flats that are the problem in my opinion. The heavily agriculturalised land and the fact that the water table along the Pakistan India border is close to 6 to 10 feet ( especially in Sialkot district etc ) with tube wells gushing water around 30 ft... A massive tank battle among both sides ( as has happened before ) where large mechanised division would move on them would lead to mud and vehicles stuck like chewing gum in hair... Count the rice paddies, sugar cane crops and add in a 72 tone tank... You've got yourself a good quagmire.... I'm realizing most of the analysis being done here is not based off of ground realities but rather wishful thinking.... I'd suggest before you guys go off on your buying spree, get a measuring tape a pair of joggers and measure 50 kanals of freshly ploughed agro land in the june/july heat... You'll have an idea of what you're dealing with...

Thread topic:

Pakistan Army's VT-4 Main Battle Tank | Updates & Discussions​

Treat yourself being informed. Please avoid derailing.

Derailing ? Bhai jaan idhar tau train mein train waj rahin hain. Please make another thread where they can extensively discuss the different military tactica as they wish....

 

[Iron Shrappenel]

PA strategy is "offensive defense".

Exactly, that's why mobility, fire power and range is on top of the list... The ability of the tank to operate long durations between resupplying is a must have for PA. logistically speaking even though great emphasis was made on logistics, movement, allocation and division of resources among the units ( a problem faced in all our wars ).... We still lack proper armored trucks with reinforced cabins for our logistical divisions.. These in case of a push into enemy territory would be juicy targets for sabotage and commando operations.... Thus making it more important in my opinion for Tanks that we buy be able to operate long hours in between replenishments....

 

[farooqbhai007]

Beg to differ... The desert might not have been the problem to begin with... It's the punjab flats that are the problem in my opinion. The heavily agriculturalised land and the fact that the water table along the Pakistan India border is close to 6 to 10 feet ( especially in Sialkot district etc ) with tube wells gushing water around 30 ft... A massive tank battle among both sides ( as has happened before ) where large mechanised division would move on them would lead to mud and vehicles stuck like chewing gum in hair... Count the rice paddies, sugar cane crops and add in a 72 tone tank... You've got yourself a good quagmire.... I'm realizing most of the analysis being done here is not based off of ground realities but rather wishful thinking.... I'd suggest before you guys go off on your buying spree, get a measuring tape a pair of joggers and measure 50 kanals of freshly ploughed agro land in the june/july heat... You'll have an idea of what you're dealing with...


Derailing ? Bhai jaan idhar tau train mein train waj rahin hain. Please make another thread where they can extensively discuss the different military tactica as they wish....

And the extensive network of defensive canals built on both sides to obstruct armour movement that has only been expanded by several times as opposed to how it was during the 1965 and 71 wars.
A basic scenario ,PA has ample amount of tactical UAVs , IA setting up bridges takes time enough to be detected by a UAV and with PA's edge in a large amount of SPH regiments you get a immediate volley of fire to stop that bridging op.

 

[iLION12345_1]

Beg to differ... The desert might not have been the problem to begin with... It's the punjab flats that are the problem in my opinion. The heavily agriculturalised land and the fact that the water table along the Pakistan India border is close to 6 to 10 feet ( especially in Sialkot district etc ) with tube wells gushing water around 30 ft... A massive tank battle among both sides ( as has happened before ) where large mechanised division would move on them would lead to mud and vehicles stuck like chewing gum in hair... Count the rice paddies, sugar cane crops and add in a 72 tone tank... You've got yourself a good quagmire.... I'm realizing most of the analysis being done here is not based off of ground realities but rather wishful thinking.... I'd suggest before you guys go off on your buying spree, get a measuring tape a pair of joggers and measure 50 kanals of freshly ploughed agro land in the june/july heat... You'll have an idea of what you're dealing with...


Derailing ? Bhai jaan idhar tau train mein train waj rahin hain. Please make another thread where they can extensively discuss the different military tactica as they wish....

People often forget how much logistics goes into deploying a single tank let alone hundreds. We have absolutely none of the supporting infrastructure for a tank heavier than 60 tons, even that was only added after VT4s induction, most of our military bridges are still only capable of carrying upto 50 tons. Not to mention the cost and complexity of inducting a tank that doesn’t use any shared parts or ammo with our current tanks. I highly doubt we’ll see another tank type in the PA for at least two decades now. They’ll continue to build up the AK and VT4 fleet.

 

[farooqbhai007]

People often forget how much logistics goes into deploying a single tank let alone hundreds. We have absolutely none of the supporting infrastructure for a tank heavier than 60 tons, even that was only added after VT4s induction, most of our military bridges are still only capable of carrying upto 50 tons. Not to mention the cost and complexity of inducting a tank that doesn’t use any shared parts or ammo with our current tanks. I highly doubt we’ll see another tank type in the PA for at least two decades now. They’ll continue to build up the AK and VT4 fleet.

Yes pontoon bridges , Armored bridge layers and wheeled bridge layers all stand at 50 ton max capacity , for VT4 PA has had to induct new 70 ton capacity systems.

 

[alimobin memon]

I read that the Thais complain armour on the VT4 is much thinner then the T-80 oplot they initially planned to purchase. Given that it will most likely to alloted to our strike corps, can the VT4 withstand barrages of ATGMs ?

No tank would survive barrages of ATGM, technically hard kill aps like trophy has less probably too in case of barrages. VT4 is better than T90 variants it has to face that matters the most. There is this claim by an us army colonel that around 48 times atgm was fired but trophy intercepted but it was not in barrage format rather 1 or 2 at a time. So that claim if you make is not entirely good claim.

 

[Raja Porus]

 

[Raja Porus]

Close up of 12.7mm

 

[iLION12345_1]

A very good video covering why tanks are still extremely relevant. People who think ATGMs/Launchers and drones are going to make them obsolete should watch this.

 

[waz]

A very good video covering why tanks are still extremely relevant. People who think ATGMs/Launchers and drones are going to make them obsolete should watch this.

Good video.
This whole thing of ditching tanks is the talk of amateurs. No way can you hold land, take up defensive positions, provide close fire support to infantry for a prolonged time etc just with drones. Our battlefront is wide and also fluid hence we need it all.